DIY livery - summer grazing includes no hay ???

[chasing-my-tail]

Hello there

We have a small livery yard - totally DIY, £25pw with hay. Would I be correct in stating that when the ponies/horses are out grazing in the summer then we do not have to supply hay?

One of our ladies has to bring in all her ponies in the evening as they are getting fat due to the amount of grass shooting up from this good weather.

Because they are in, the ponies arent keen on our hay - but realised that its not up to us to supply hay in the summer as the rent is covering the land rental - this is correct isnt it???

At the end of the day if the animals are getting fat because of our good land management then its not up to us to supply supplementry feeds.

Can you lovely ladies clarify....Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Nailed]

usually when hay is offered in livery, you should be given the option of a reduction for grass only livery.. so yes the hay should still be included..

If i was on a yard that charged £25 with hay, then in the summer I would expect to pay £20 pound for grass livery.

Lou x

 

[tigerlily12345]

well i would say if the rent is all inclusive then ad lib hay should be provided when ever the liveries want it.. i would expect hay to be provided if i was paying for it

 

[chasing-my-tail]

I'm a bit confused to offer a reduction as they are in essence renting the ground in the summer - ie this is prime farm fertilised land that has a rental value. So giving a reduction isnt strictly making any economical sence is it?

In the summer obviously the grass is cut off our land which incurs a cost which is incuded in the rent. Land is left for mowing in other prime fields.

So I disagree that any reduction should be made. ALso taking into account we provide direct water, all brand new electrics, and good clean yard set up.

So, in summer you think that we should supply grazing and adhoc hay on demand? So how can you make a lose of £5pw?

I have heard the complete opposite from the more professional liveries in this area.

 

[Maesfen]

well i would say if the rent is all inclusive then ad lib hay should be provided when ever the liveries want it.. i would expect hay to be provided if i was paying for it

This.

I'd either lower rent in the summer so they have to supply their own if they want it or stay the same price but supply it. Because they don't want to eat it now is not your problem, you should not substitute anything in its place. It's a common fact that many yards charge a base rate all year which includes hay/feed/bedding, whatever but when they're not needed, the price stays the same to cover for the extra that is used over the winter (providing you're the type of YO that does supply extra automatically when needed of course and not restrict them because they need more than you bargained for). I would rather pay a steady all year round price than have a summer/winter price subject to fluctuation myself.

BTW, just seen your reply above. Around here, £25 a week is steep for just grazing, it's about £15, no more for a basic DIY, sometimes even cheaper so I would say you're being greedy on your summer rent if you intend to withhold hay from them or charge them for it as an extra.

Also, the last thing horses need is prime fertilized farm land unless you want to induce laminitis.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

If the price remains the same all year round, then I'd assume hay was included as required in summer also.
Similarly, I used to pay £25 a week for livery with straw bedding included. During the summer months most horses didn't use their stables and the straw wasn't used, but we paid the full amount as YO kept a supply of it.

 

[Nailed]

why ask for advise if you then chop down everything people say?
I said if you are removing the choice of hay then i would expect a reduction..

and it must be the area as its always worked that way around here.

Why post on a forum and then say your have heard the opposite from the more professional liveries in your are? seems to defeat the object if youve already heard what you want to! Im still with your livery on this one.. you should be providing the hay.

Lou x

 

[andraste]

If your price is staying the same then the services you provide need to stay the same - stands to reason. Either you accept that the extra profit in summer balances anything you lose in winter while services remain the same or you tailor both your services and your prices to the season.

 

[hudsonw]

If i was paying for DIY livery which included hay i would expect that service all year round unless otherwise stated in the contract.

I bring my horse in every night regardless of the time of year, it's not unusual for liveries to want to bring their horses in...even in the summer?!!?

If you don't want to include hay in the £25 over the summer then you should reduce the livery cost in the summer but charge for hay.

I pay £25 for DIY livery which includes All Year Turnout, Stable and Use Of facilities (outdoor all weather school, XC, Jumping Paddock, 3 mile gallops and horse walker) Hay and bedding is extra no matter what time of year it is.

Maybe you should charge a flat rate through out the year and everything else you supply like hay etc should be charged extra...that way the liveries get what they pay for and you don't have any major fluctuations in your charges.

I have found that having things like Hay and Bedding etc included in the price of DIY is great if you feed allot or have a messy horse but if you have a small, clean pony then it's not always financially sound as your not using as much?

 

[feefeeb28]

If i was paying for DIY livery which included hay i would expect that service all year round unless otherwise stated in the contract.

I bring my horse in every night regardless of the time of year, it's not unusual for liveries to want to bring their horses in...even in the summer?!!?

If you don't want to include hay in the £25 over the summer then you should reduce the livery cost in the summer but charge for hay.

Ditto this

 

[smellsofhorse]

If you charge a flat rate what you get should be the same all year round.

You either need to reduce price of the summer grazing or charge a rate for just grazing all year and the charge people for hay as they use it.

I've never know anyone with your way of thinking on this!

 

[quirky]

If you think you are charging land rental, then I assume your livery bills state this ie.

Stable & Grazing £100/month
Hay £25/month

for example.

If your bills are inclusive ie. DIY livery £125/month, then I'd expect hay all year round on an ad lib basis.

 

[L&M]

As a yo I don't make my own hay or haylage so have to buy it in. I offer 2 rates of diy livery at £20 per week if providing own forage, and £25 if requiring haylage which is stated in the contract as only available from oct - april.

The reason I don't drop the price in the summer is to even out the expense of buying haylage in for me, with no large hikes in clients livery bills come the winter months.

Also to keep costs down I buy in large haylage bales so cannot justify openening this size bale in the summer if only one or two liveries need it, as there would be wastage. I have plentiful grazing, with all my liveries enjoying the benefit of 24/7 summer turnout.

I explain this to any prospective liveries and have had no complaints yet!

 

[hairycob]

What's included varies from yard to yard & you need to be explicit in your contract. If the contract says hay included Oct to April then that is clear. If it says nothing I would assume it was included all year round.

ps can you send us some grass growing weather. We have had 7mm of rain since early March and are having to put hay out in the fields.

 

[Mimi2610]

As a YO I don't reduce the rates on the full liveries in the summer if they are turned out for 20 hours a day or out full time. They can obviously still use forage and bedding like they do in the winter after all that is the contract they have signed. My DIYs would say something if they were still paying full whack and getting refused their forage. I don't think you can keep charging £25 just for grass and refuse them hay no matter how good your yard is.

Good electrics/water is a must anyway, it's not a luxury therefore you can't charge for it. It's part of your maintenance.

 

[L&M]

In my case charging £25 a week all yr round, especially as I have to buy haylage in, is the only way I can make any profits - after all yards are businesses and not charities. As mentioned in my previous post my liveries are aware that haylage is only included in the winter months.

If I got a client who wanted additional forage other than grass over the summer I would happily buy it in but would have to raise their weekly charge to reflect this. I do always keep some small bale hay available over the summer which I will sell at cost to liveries if they need it for shows etc.

The other option would be to offer a reduced rate in the summer, but my liveries prefer to stay on the same rate all year to help spread costs.

I think the main point of this discussion is to ensure you know what your costs are and to clearly state verbally, and in a signed contract, what is included in your rates.

 

[GingerCat]

For DIY livery on our yard it costs £20 a week wether stabled or turned out, that includes use of indoor/outdoor arenas, water and electrics. Hay/haylage is extra at £11 a week adlib.
I think it's more sensible to bill separately for fodder and bedding as everyone keeps their horses differently and therefore use different yard resources.
I certainly wouldn't want to supplement someone elses use of hay by paying for it if I wasn't using it!

You wouldn't go on a self catering holiday and expect to pay the same rate as someone who was full board would you?

 

[Ladylina83]

If it was included in the bill then I would want it all year round yes, unless your contract says Stable and hay October to April, Grass livery with use of stable April to October and your livery had agreed to that.

With a mare who needs restricted grazing it wouldn't suit my needs

Do you have contracts with your liverys ?

 

[Honey08]

We used to do DIY that included haylage in the price, and of course it was available all year round - even though the horses went out more, they still came in to be groomed, had a net in the box for travelling etc. Some came in when it rained as their owners were a bit soft. You find that the horses don't really want/need much haylage anyway, and the DIYers work that out eventually.

Funnily enough, we also had good electrics, new stables and well maintained fields as well!

 

[CBFan]

So do the horses not get turnout at all in winter? I don't get this thing you have about land rental??!

If you want to make a proffit surely the easiest way is to charge £x for stable and grazing and either £x amount for add lib hay per week (which I really can't see being that proffitable OR you sell it by the bale at a marked up price.

Ditto some of the answers above... my horse requires hay all year round as the grazing isn't sufficient for him... I'd love him to be out 24/7 but just can't do it as we aren't allowed hay in the fields. Others need to restrict grazing for the opposite reasons...

 

[JoBird]

I partly agree with the OP. If the grazing is good, this is what she is offering instead of hay. Many livery yards have bald grazing so need to supplement this with hay or the horses would starve!
OP - I would give all your liveries new contracts stating how you want to do it, either hay included during certain months or hay as an extra cost. £25/pw is usual around here for a stable and grazing and people buying their own hay on top of this (whether summer or winter) so not expensive in my view!

 

[Maesfen]

Where is the OP?

 

[Pipkin]

If i was paying £25 a week I`d be expecting hay or a lower price!

When i was on DIY on a good yard i paid £5stable £6 grazing, on well maintained fields, rotated frequently, tack room, electrics and water supplied.

 

[FairyLights]

Its up to you,the yard owner,to decide what you do and do not include and when and what to charge. So long as everything is clearly stated in writing then its up to the liveries themselves to decide to stay or go or come onto the yard in the first place. Every yard has its own rules. For example some include unlimited use of the menage in the weekly price of livery,others insist on the clients only buying hay straw and shavings off the YO and not bringing in stuff from outside. The client then decides if they like the arrangement and it offers value for money or not and if they dont like it they have the option of leaving. Its when theres grey areas, like this one,that trouble and ill feeling starts.

 

[CrazyMare]

This is why I hate 'inclusive' livery. Everyone argues about what is included, or what times it is or isn't included for.

I'd rather pay for my livery - a set fee, not broken down to stable/field, or you'll get people with box resting horses demanding reductions. Then I'd rather buy my hay on top - either from YO, or not.

So for example, I pay £109 pcm per horse, then I pay £3 pw for straw for one stable, and £20 per bale for large bale hay.

 

[SO1]

We pay £30 more a month in the winter which includes hay in the field if needed, if we want extra hay to give to our horses in their stables then we have to buy it off the yard owner. This makes it nice and easy for everyone.

 

[Bosworth]

My DIY is £30 a week, in winter I have haylage which the liveries are charged £10 a week for adlib. In summer the DIY is still £30 but I have large bale hay and they are charged £1 per net for that, those that want it pay, those that don't want it don't pay. I have seperated out the livery and the haylage/hay and bedding as the summer out 24/7 gets tricky

 

[opal06]

I have a small livery yard and my price includes hay and this is included all year round, if they don't use it then that fine and like wise if they do again it's fine, I supply all year round as if like your yard horse have to come in then they need hay and it's in the agreement that hay is supplied then yes you would have to. I also supply it in summer as horse go off to shows etc.

In my agreement cos hay is in such short supply, I say that they get a normal amount if hay in the agreement and if they need ad lib they buy extra themselves.

Can you not suggest to the livery with her horses in that she makes a smaller paddock, so they don't have to come in? Then They won't need to feed hay!

 

[Mugsgame]

Sorry, I must confess to not reading every single post here due to time limits... but I am not sure whether to laugh or be stunned?!!

The OP's liverys pay a weekly rate which includes hay. Case and point - they MIGHT not need the hay if they choose 24/7 turnout during the kinder months but that is their choice on the set up detailed.

What is this about renting the land? They are not renting the land you are charging them livery prices. So again, grass livery prices round here are £10-£15 per horse per week. This is for livery - ie, the land owner maintains fences, water, electric if required and treats the ground when necc. In smaller paddocks the livery would be expected to poo pick I am sure. Now, if you would prefer to RENT your land to a horse owner, you should draw up quite a different contract - for less money. A lot less. In this instance you would be renting your prime farming land at a price per acre per year and the tenant would take on responsibilities.

But then.... if you are farming prime farm land you would know the approx cost of land per acre and the various methods of either renting or providing livery on your ground - so would suspect OP may have disappeared as is spouting a lot of rot?!!

 

[louised1henry]

ive been at several yards and know people at other yards and have never heard anything like the op has suggested.

as far as I am concerned diy livery/stable and grazing is roughly 20-25 pounds per week 52 weeks a year. weather horses are in, out or what ever. And if you state hay is included in your livery amount then it is provided 52 weeks a year also.

personally ive found it better when you buy your hay from the yard separately, instead of it being included. its fairer as some people feed more/less than others.

you need to reduce your summer charges if you are not including hay. The fact of your grazing being good is irrelevant. grass livery is only £10/£15 a week.

actually surprised you have any liveries to begin with, I for one would not be at a yard with the set up you talked about.