DIY livery - what to charge

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Mari

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Have agreed to create a temporary loose box in my barn to give shelter to a 13hh pony. Barn has lights, water, storage for rugs/tack/feed/etc. Owner will have turnout if weather permits & use of outdoor arena & will provide own bedding/haylage/etc. but will be using my mucking out tools. What should I charge for this?
 
You need to work out your costs, i.e business rates, electricity and water at business rates charges, insurance third party and the three cs then how much you need on top to be worth your while. You will also need planning permission to change use of your land, if it is for personal use only.
 
If it is just for the one pony then i would have a serious think about how you want to charge her,purely because it isnt worth changing your use of land for etc ;)
Make sure she has her own insurance etc...but you need to be seen to not be making money from it ;)
 
Sorry Hadfos, but why should she not have to declare she is making money, its people doing this that are driving decent YO out of business as we cannot compete with the people making a bit on the side, pocketing their money, when we have to pay our income out on a lot of rates and extra charges?

There are laws and if planning was given for your arena for "private use" then that is what it is for, you HAVE to apply for change of use if you charge to use it with as part of a livery package or hiring it for someone else to use. You may only have got planning due to private use where commercial it would have been refused, or a neighbour might have a genuine concern.

Also not having her own insurance if something happens then she is liable, is it really worthwhile to loose everything over a £25 a week livery. Also insurance is not valid for public liability if you are not declaring to the council you are running a business from your property.
 
scally said:
Sorry Hadfos, but why should she not have to declare she is making money, its people doing this that are driving decent YO out of business as we cannot compete with the people making a bit on the side, pocketing their money, when we have to pay our income out on a lot of rates and extra charges?

There are laws and if planning was given for your arena for "private use" then that is what it is for, you HAVE to apply for change of use if you charge to use it with as part of a livery package or hiring it for someone else to use. You may only have got planning due to private use where commercial it would have been refused, or a neighbour might have a genuine concern.

Also not having her own insurance if something happens then she is liable, is it really worthwhile to loose everything over a £25 a week livery. Also insurance is not valid for public liability if you are not declaring to the council you are running a business from your property.
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Whilst I agree with you in principle, it is a very different thing having just one 'livery' rather than several.

I suggest the OP charges £25 per week and this can easily be offset by using the money to invest in the property.....on paper anyhow ;)

This is a loophole in business law, where you offset the 'rent' to 'ongoing improvements'.
 
Hey go easy I'm only giving temporary accomodation for a few weeks because of the weather. I'm not planning on taking liveries or making it permanent & I'm certainly not taking business away from anyone. Owner came to me because they were desperate, couldn't find anywhere with any room in the locality. Pony's been here 1 week already & I haven't charged anything but have agreed to keep until end February & owner wants to pay something as I have to pay for electricity/water/muck heap removal/field & arena maintenance. I wasn't planning on making money, just covering my expenses.
 
Yes, but you still have to declare to the council that you are earning money, you still have to apply for change of use if your permission is for personal, and declare to the tax man.
 
Sorry Op just seen your reply, your really do need insurance if you are going to charge her anything, it really is not worth the risk.

Maybe work out something you really need and have that as a nice leaving gift/present, that way you are not charging for use of your premises.
 
Mari said:
Hey go easy I'm only giving temporary accomodation for a few weeks because of the weather. I'm not planning on taking liveries or making it permanent & I'm certainly not taking business away from anyone. Owner came to me because they were desperate, couldn't find anywhere with any room in the locality. Pony's been here 1 week already & I haven't charged anything but have agreed to keep until end February & owner wants to pay something as I have to pay for electricity/water/muck heap removal/field & arena maintenance. I wasn't planning on making money, just covering my expenses.
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£25 should cover the costs sufficiently :)
 
Crikey, didn't realise I would cause so much furore. Puts me off doing anyone a favour! Think I'll just leave it as it is & not charge anything.
 
scally said:
Yes, but you still have to declare to the council that you are earning money, you still have to apply for change of use if your permission is for personal, and declare to the tax man.
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Sorry, just seen this.....can't keep up!!

You don't have to declare anything unless you 'make' anything

It would still be for personal use, as it is not for 'business' purposes

The taxman would offset it anyhow as a menial amount
 
Sadly doing people a favour these days leaves you wide open.

A long time friend in her 70s (did post about) well know and respected instructor did lots of teaching never from home though, due to one thing and another a client couldnt have a lesson at hers so went to instructors to have lesson, horse had accident, client sued instructor, instructors insurance wasnt valid and wouldnt pay out, she has had to pay out of her retirement fund and lost a considerable amount of money and stopped teaching.
 
I'm with you Cazza. My council planning officer told me personal use includes friends using the arena as part of my social activity. The proviso is that I don't hire it out - which I don't.
 
I pay £25 a week DIY livery which includes a stable, turnout and use of an outdoor school.

I have access to an indoor school at £5 for 1 hour, Horse walker is £3.50 for 20 mins,Turn out or a bring in is £1.50, rug change is 50p, skip out is £2 and a full muck out is £3.50, to chuck a feed bucket in or tie up a hay net is 50p. In the winter when pipes are frozen it's £1.50 to fill a bucket of water.

Large Heston bales of straw are £25, Hay £30 and Haylege £32 and all forage must be bought from the YO.
 
Holly Hocks said:
You won't get charged business rates if you have four boxes or less.
You do not have to pay tax unless you make PROFIT from the income. Simple
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I'm with you Cazza. My council planning officer told me personal use includes friends using the arena as part of my social activity. The proviso is that I don't hire it out - which I don't.

Ditto Ditto :)
 
Holly Hocks said:
You won't get charged business rates if you have four boxes or less.
You do not have to pay tax unless you make PROFIT from the income. Simple
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I was told this was the case too. But would contact someone in the know just in case.

If it is a favour for a friend i might consider the 'gift' idea - but be careful with insurancies etc you don't want to leave yourself wide open.
 
What a lot of knowledgeable people out there. Just out of interest - what would the situation be if wecalled it sharing & we had shared use of the premises & shared the expenses? (We could each put £15 a week into a 'pot' to pay for upkeep)
 
Ok have just checked all my new paperwork regarding business rates etc (as just moved and reset up new yard with loads of planning etc to go through and each council is slightly different), four stables is a guideline subject to your councils approval, however if you have a school, barn for storage for equipment, hay or straw, parking for vehicles, storage of vehicles these are all rateable as part of the facilities, so four stables rule is not set in concrete and you need to talk to your council.

If you were given planning for a school for personal use, you can use it for friends, but not for someone who is paying you as part of your facilities. Business rates are non domestic rates which everyone falls under, if charging or using your home for a business, it is your duty to inform the council and for them to decide if you are exempt or not.

Its true you dont need to pay tax unless you make a profit but you HAVE to declare it everyone has to declare additional or extra income its the law, but you can offset it.
 
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