DIY yard rule regarding when to muck out..

Sugar_and_Spice said:
I don't even understand the "horses not seen to until 11am" that is often seen on various threads on here, with the owners accused of laziness and neglect. If the horse has been left with sufficient hay and water, with enough bedding that its not standing around in a mulch of poo and wee, then what difference does it make what time its turned out? I have been on many DIY yards where horses are fed breakfast and turned out at 10am as part of the package, and although the yards didn't have opening times owners were not allowed to turn out before 10am.

It annoys me even more to see that any horse who runs out of hay is apparently neglected, according to this forum. It's not good for them to run out at 8pm and have to go through the night with nothing. But if they have enough so it runs out aprox 3hrs before turnout and they wait with nothing to eat, it helps with weight control. Not all horses need ad lib hay.
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Actually horse do need To have access to forage at all times and it is totally unacceptable to leave a horse stood for any length of time without. If a horse cannot cope with haylage or hay then soaked hay may be needed, or even straw (I have used straw for my fatty).

One thing I have discovered having horses at home is that what people think is enough, often isn't. I could put a net out at 7pm and do night checks at 11pm and the net be empty. If a net is empty in the morning then enough hasn't been provided. If a horse is not deprived of food then the don't gorge, they don't feel the need to.

So basically if someone were to leave the yard at say 7pm and not arrive the next day until 11am, even if the horse took 8 hours to empty that net, they could have still been stood without anything for 8 hours - that is not acceptable.

I will also like to add my point again that it isn't poo that is the issue, it is the wet. Forgetting horse welfare for a minute - For any yard with wooden stables, leaving the wet in is going to cause the walls to rot. Stables are expensive and YO are going to want them to last as long as possible and not have bottoms with rotten splinters peeling off. Even barn style stables have wooden dividing walls. The only ones without issues would be brick build but ammonia can even cause mortar to rot away.

Side partitions are about £300 each
 
saddlesore said:
I get your point Fides but I've honestly NEVER seen that happen. I can only imagine that on deep litter with a wet mare tbh.
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I've just left a yard where the walls were a mess and I had to have massive banks for fear of one of them getting their foot stuck. I've seen it one other time too. I do believe it mare peeing backwards that means the edges of the beds are wet. I suppose it could have been them peeing in the banks and the banks not being dug out. Both times the previous occupant turned out in the morning and mucked out in the evening, though I don't believe they deep littered.

Not a risk I'm willing to take now I'm responsible for replacing them.
 
Never heard of a rule like that.

I'd be moving, not everyone can make it down in the morning full stop (I couldn't at one point I paid for turnout) let alone be mucked out by midday.
 
I guess the ad lib forage issue is a matter of opinion then Fides. As far as I was aware the latest veterinary thinking is that horses were fine without food for a few hours at a time. How else would we ride them without it being a welfare issue? Horses turned out onto suitable, ie not excessive, grazing don't gorge after as the opportunity isn't there.

I'm well aware of how some people overestimate the time it takes a large horse to eat a small haynet and I dislike seeing horses go all night without food just as you do. A horse fed ad lib forage won't gorge but it may still be fat. I can substitute straw of course and have done in the past, but when hay is included in the livery charge I'm not going to pay out twice when the same result can be got from having the horse run out of hay a few hours early, which I believe causes no harm to the horse.

As for rotten stables, I've never known that from anything other than age, possibly combined with lack of wood paint/creosote or similar. Horse wee, in a decent sized bed with banks, doesn't go anywhere near the wall. Unless you deep litter. And no yard I've been on has ever had a 'no deep litter beds' rule. Of course with the current fashion of 4" of chippings or similar on top of rubber mats, most people wouldn't know what a decent bed is and tend to think my beds are crazy deep.
 
Well said Fides.

If there is rule on a yard for early mucking out then it should also ensure that animals aren't left standing in poopy wet bedding until mid to late morning.

I don't see why it is that people think not doing their horse first thing is acceptable. I understand that not everyone can be at their yard at 6 am, but (ruck coming up) to not do your horse until late in the morning is just not on. I may be fairly traditional in my standards, but I was always taught that pets (inc. horses) come first, humans later. So there are no lie ins at our house!

These animals rely on us for everything, food, water, health and welfare and we shouldn't be letting them down by not seeing to their needs before ours. In my view, anyone who thinks otherwise should question whether they should have pets/horses.
 
3OldPonies said:
Well said Fides.

If there is rule on a yard for early mucking out then it should also ensure that animals aren't left standing in poopy wet bedding until mid to late morning.

I don't see why it is that people think not doing their horse first thing is acceptable. I understand that not everyone can be at their yard at 6 am, but (ruck coming up) to not do your horse until late in the morning is just not on. I may be fairly traditional in my standards, but I was always taught that pets (inc. horses) come first, humans later. So there are no lie ins at our house!

These animals rely on us for everything, food, water, health and welfare and we shouldn't be letting them down by not seeing to their needs before ours. In my view, anyone who thinks otherwise should question whether they should have pets/horses.
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It entirely depends on what time they are brought in. My mare rarely gets brought in before 8pm every night in winter. Sometimes it's midnight or beyond.
 
It doesnt matter what time the horse if left it until i think the issue is HOW LONG the horse is left in! A horse coming in at 4pm and then getting turned out at 8:30pm is it its stable for 16.5 hours, so what if a horse is brought in at 9pm and put back out at 11 is only in its stable for 14 hours so why is that neglect just because the schedule isnt the same as yours? people need to stop judging on what time the horse comes in and out and actually look at the amount of time a horse spends in the stable! my horse may come in to be ridden at about 7 but i dont leave the yard until 9:30, 9:30 is when she gets her hay and water topped up and her bed skipped out for the final time!
 
3OldPonies said:
OK, I know you haven't said you leave her in until 11 - but assuming from what you have written that you do - why do you?
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If she's gone in at midnight or thereabouts, then yes, because it usually means that I have been on call all night with work. That's 11 hours in the stable. That's less time in than most yards who put in at 6 and turn out at 7.

Either way, she has enough hay or haylege to last her. She doesn't get stressed about it - she gets a good 12 hours or so out each day in the winter, and out 24/7 from Spring to Autumn.

As said above, it doesn't matter what time they are stood in their stables - it's how long they are in that matters, and what they have available to them in that time also.
 
I would not livery at a yard if they suddenly imposed a much out am rule because it has happened to me before. I muck out after work- because I need to be at work for half 8, I have an hour commute and a 45 minute dog walk to fit in as well as breakfast and all the morning's activities. I can't fit it all in and arrive smelling clean and being fresh faced and professional for work. I already get up at 6 to do the animals before adding a muck out. If I want any resemblance of a happy relationship with my husband I will not wake him up earlier just so a horse can be mucked out early when it's not even in its stable- it's in a field care free

There is no benefit - if the stables are dusty and smelly then they have poor ventilation or drainage- a few poos and a bit of wee sat on a decent bed should not be soooo smelly, unless the bed isn't deep enough or your rubber mats are trapping urine underneath....

A well managed bed shouldn't smell and good management doesn't mean a 5am get up!
 
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OK, I totally get the point about work commitments meaning you need to muck out later, and presumable you people that do that have arrangements with your yards so that it is OK for you to do so. It's not my ideal, but then I chose a job that lets me keep regular hours and not to far from yard or home.

But, as we all know there are people who leave their horses in when they don't need to and can't be ars*d to turn up and do them, we've all heard the gripes on this forum about the lazy people on yards - it is these people that lead YOs to instigate rules about mucking out, sweeping up, turn out and bringing in times. These being the people that will rapidly get a yard a bad reputation because the place looks scruffy all the time. As we all know a tidy yard when you view it is much more attractive and gives a more professional feel than a messy one with dirty stables, mess all over the place, tools left lying around, etc.

I guess the answer is that if you YO comes up with an early muck out rule and you've not had one before then you all stick to it, find out who the naughty person was who caused the rule to be brought in and do something about them, so that hopefully the YO will remove the rule again as it will not be necessary.
 
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I pay my YO to feed and turn out so I don't have to go down in the morning. The horses are in no way neglected just because I muck out in the evening before I bring in. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If a horse is so wet that it is causing damage to the stables beyond normal wear and tear then a change of bedding to something super absorbent (like Liverpool wood pellets) and ensuring a thorough clear out of wet everyday would sort it out.
 
3OldPonies said:
OK, I totally get the point about work commitments meaning you need to muck out later, and presumable you people that do that have arrangements with your yards so that it is OK for you to do so. It's not my ideal, but then I chose a job that lets me keep regular hours and not to far from yard or home.

But, as we all know there are people who leave their horses in when they don't need to and can't be ars*d to turn up and do them, we've all heard the gripes on this forum about the lazy people on yards - it is these people that lead YOs to instigate rules about mucking out, sweeping up, turn out and bringing in times. These being the people that will rapidly get a yard a bad reputation because the place looks scruffy all the time. As we all know a tidy yard when you view it is much more attractive and gives a more professional feel than a messy one with dirty stables, mess all over the place, tools left lying around, etc.

I guess the answer is that if you YO comes up with an early muck out rule and you've not had one before then you all stick to it, find out who the naughty person was who caused the rule to be brought in and do something about them, so that hopefully the YO will remove the rule again as it will not be necessary.
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I agree with that - there are many people out there that just can't be bothered, and it really really boils my pee. We've had people on our yard over the past few years who will leave there horses/ponies in 24/7 and only turn up once per day, chuck a bit of hay in, a gigantic bucket of feed, top the water up, and skip out, before leaving for a further 24 hrs. Absolutely disgraceful.

As I said earlier, I am on a very small yard, so there aren't really any rules as to when you go up and what you do - which can work both ways. It's great for me personally, because my work patterns would make being on a strict yard with time limits pretty impossible. However, we've had a multitude of selfish, lazy people who can't be bothered on the yard who take advantage of that.
 
abb123 said:
I pay my YO to feed and turn out so I don't have to go down in the morning. The horses are in no way neglected just because I muck out in the evening before I bring in. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If a horse is so wet that it is causing damage to the stables beyond normal wear and tear then a change of bedding to something super absorbent (like Liverpool wood pellets) and ensuring a thorough clear out of wet everyday would sort it out.
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My stable doesn't get mucked out all day until right before I bring my mare in. But she is on deep litter hemp, and in a breeze block and concrete stable, so not going to cause any damage to walls etc, and the fact she is on deep litter means that it's not going make any difference whether I clear the poo from the top surface or not until later on.

With wooden stables, or poor floors, and bedding such as straw, then yes, I do think it should be mucked out in the morning and left to dry all day.
 
Sorry guys, can't leave this thread alone!

A proper muck out, where the bed is shifted from one side to the other and the walls and floor previously covered by bedding allowed to air is the only way to prevent wooden walls from rotting. You may not see the damage happening immediately if you don't shift banking or bedding, but the rot will be starting, it only becomes visually apparent once the wood is beyond repair. Deep litter beds and only taking the wet patches out are not the way to go if you want to preserve your buildings and not end up with costly repairs. They also encourage vermin to set up home.
 
IMO some of you are discussing an entirely separate issue. Those of us who muck out later aren't leaving horses in till then! They are still turned out ( in my case by yard staff as part of my livery) in the morning. When the horse is in the field he doesn't care if his stable has been mucked out yet, so long as it's done! People leaving horses IN and standing in a dirty stable is a whole other issue and YO should definitely speak to them about it. But to me, unless on box rest, no horse should be stuck in anyway.
 
Spring Feather said:
Good thread OP! I feel like I've been living in a cave as I honestly had no idea that so many people did not muck out first thing in the morning. Wouldn't occur to me to NOT muck out and turn back the beds first thing in the morning tbh.
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saddlesore said:
But that's your business is it not SF?
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Spring Feather said:
It is. And?
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saddlesore said:
If it was my business I would do the mornings too! I think the point is that people who work elsewhere often need to do it in the evenings...
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That may be *your* point. It's not mine. If you re-read my post you will see that *my* point is that I am surprised about the amount of people who do not muck out in the morning and that it wouldn't occur to *me* not to muck out in the morning. The reasons why others do or do not do this are of no interest to me; I couldn't care less what people do, however that does not negate the fact that it still surprised me.

I digress. No horses live in on my farm. All live out. The only mucking out I ever do is at foaling time when mares are going to foal within 24 hours, so if they don't foal during the day then they are kept in overnight and I muck their foaling boxes out when I turn them back out again in the morning.
 
Spring Feather said:
That may be *your* point. It's not mine. If you re-read my post you will see that *my* point is that I am surprised about the amount of people who do not muck out in the morning and that it wouldn't occur to *me* not to muck out in the morning. The reasons why others do or do not do this are of no interest to me; I couldn't care less what people do, however that does not negate the fact that it still surprised me.
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Are you me? I totally agree.

Mine have always without fail been mucked out in the morning.

Had 1 DIY yrs ago who left the mucking out till later, then ranted at me as I had brought her horse in (rule was nothing left on its own, hers was a shyte on its own!) and it had messed up the bed on a wet winters day..... at 8pm when she STILL hadn't arrived to do it, nor left water or hay ready - not done a thing for the horse at all

Am so glad I dont have 'extras' on the yard these days :)
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Are you me? I totally agree.

Mine have always without fail been mucked out in the morning.

Had 1 DIY yrs ago who left the mucking out till later, then ranted at me as I had brought her horse in (rule was nothing left on its own, hers was a shyte on its own!) and it had messed up the bed on a wet winters day..... at 8pm when she STILL hadn't arrived to do it, nor left water or hay ready - not done a thing for the horse at all

Am so glad I dont have 'extras' on the yard these days :)
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Again, that's the beauty of my yard. Nobody brings my horse in but me, so that wouldn't happen. :-)

For me, mucking out in the morning is not an option a lot of days. I do on call shifts, and can be called out anytime during the night, hence why my mare is brought in after midnight sometimes. I cannot get up, turn out, muck out, before work if I am called out most of the night. Therefore she gets turned out before work after I have slept, and mucked out later on before I bring her in. But as I say, her stable is block and concrete, so it's not likely to damage any of the building/structures. If it was a wooden stable then that is an issue I fully agree.
 
Thank goodness I keep my horse at home - having him at the bottom of my garden means that I certainly could get up earlier and muck out before work - but why on earth would I, when I can do it at my leisure in evenings? The horse is in the field at the time, so has no idea of what timetable I keep!
Never had any problems with stinky shavings building up during the day either - only a deep litter problem IME. With a decent bed, all wet patches are contained as just that - patches. If I could even see them from the surface I would consider the bed too thin - i.e. horse was standing in / lying on wet before being turned out.

Of course if the horse was on box rest it is a different situation - but if you skip out once and muck out once a day it makes no difference which end of the day is which, surely?
 
For me the rule itself isn't so much the issue in this case (although it's a bit daft if all the horses are out in the day time) it's the fact it's suddenly changed with no consultation so the whole yard is having this change imposed on them, by the sound of it do prevent one person from causing an issue. If you've worked out a routine that works for you and been doing it for many years, it's a bit awkward to say the least to suddenly have to change it with no flexibility from the YO. I would have hoped the YO would have discussed it thoroughly and put measures in place to mitigate the inconvenience it could cause - maybe giving a month's notice of the change to allow exisiting liveries to make arrangements, or offering flexibility on a case by case basis as long as horse welfare or yard safety isn't compromised. This could be the get out if the problem livery needs to be told no.
 
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Wooden stable floors are dangerous in my opinion and are just not suitable. I don't think there are many stables out there on DIY yards that have wooden floors so I think that is taking it to an extreme example that doesn't really apply.

Wooden dividing walls do get damaged as part of normal wear and tear of being stables. They are cheaper than using breeze blocks or similar but do not last as long, that is the down side of using them.

Most normal horses are not so wet that this is excessive if suitable bedding is used and all the wet is cleared out daily. If excessive damage is occurring then the YO should take that up with the individual horse owner. For most horses/owners it isn't a problem.
 
dogatemysalad said:
I have been on some yards that have this policy. When the horses are stabled in an American barn, it's understandable. For horses with respiratory issues, being stabled next to a smelly stable isn't good and standing in while the next beside them is mucked out means lots of dust/spores etc being tossed around.
It's not the end of the world but having beds done in the morning is better practice, although it does make life a bit more of a rush for people who need to leave very early in the mornings.
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When they are skipped out in the PM does this not cause the same problem?

Seems very odd to me OP.
 
I put this rule into place on my yard, all horses to be mucked out by 11am. It means that should any of the horses need to be brought in during the day for an emergency or whatever the case, I know that I can put them straight in their stables no worries. I hate seeing a straw bed quickly picked through with no time for the floor to dry. All my liveries are fine with it and wouldn't want to leave their stables dirty until the afternoon anyway.
 
It's just me on my yard, and I muck out when it suits me, sometimes am, sometimes pm. The doors are shut and the yard swept/muck heap tidied so it doesn't look messy either way.

I think it looks nice if a pro yard or full/part livery yard has everything done and dusted early, but it's not a fair rule to have on a DIY yard. The only DIY yard I've ever been on had the rule that everything had to be mucked out daily or else the yard owner would do it and charge for it. When we did DIY we just stipulated that the yard and muck heap had to be kept tidy so that if different people mucked out at different times there weren't constant trails of straw to the muck heap left..
 
Another yard owner here. I expect horses to be turned out and stables done by 10am. Feeds should be made up, haynets and water buckets full and beds either left up if the floor wants drying or neatly down. They basically need to be ready in case the horse needs to be brought in by someone other than the owner. This could be for reasons such as bad weather, or if the owner is unable to make it up due to work/family issues.
We are more than happy for liveries to do jobs for eachother to save time on either end of the day, as long as the jobs are done. If it isn't done then we do it and charge for the work.
I really cannot stand a stable left dirty, to me it is just laziness and disrespectful.
 
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