DM testing

[P3LH]

I wondered if there were many on here with knowledge and/or understanding of degenerative myelopathy and more exactly the testing process and accuracy?

I am selective about where I engage in dog related discussions online (here I feel you can always have a balanced discussion) but have foolishly entered into a discussion elsewhere that mystifies me. I have been shot down for stating that I would, and have, bought from untested (for dm but tested for other things) dogs and, to a degree, would trust the breeders experience in terms of if they have or have not found signs of it in their lines. 1 of my 3 has come from lines where there was ‘potential’ in dogs 13, 14 and 16 but equally could have been old dogs losing mobility. The other two have come from lines with no signs or history/known cases.

My understanding, having two breeds where it’s recognised there have been cases and doing my own research extensively, is that the testing is not as black and white as with other testing and an affected test is actually an at risk test, and doesn’t mean that the dog will ever necessarily be affected by dm? I was also under the impression the only 100% diagnosis was necropsy/post mortem on spine but I’m happy to be corrected/learn more if there is now more recent developments with testing.

To be clear, I am very pro genetic testing.

 

[{97702}]

I liked your post for a really interesting discussion Luke_H (as I’ve come to expect from you!) - I know nothing about DM but I know the same debate exists about syringomyelia in cavaliers, where an MRI scan does NOT prove a genetic predisposition.....

 

[CorvusCorax]

DM is pretty obvious without PM, if you've ever had a dog with it.
Most GSD breeders on the continent test for it as a matter of course, and incidences are much less than they were when I was younger...we had two from completely different lines go from it, I can't remember the last time I heard of anyone losing a dog to it.

 

[skinnydipper]

I wondered if there were many on here with knowledge and/or understanding of degenerative myelopathy and more exactly the testing process and accuracy?

I am selective about where I engage in dog related discussions online (here I feel you can always have a balanced discussion) but have foolishly entered into a discussion elsewhere that mystifies me. I have been shot down for stating that I would, and have, bought from untested (for dm but tested for other things) dogs and, to a degree, would trust the breeders experience in terms of if they have or have not found signs of it in their lines. 1 of my 3 has come from lines where there was ‘potential’ in dogs 13, 14 and 16 but equally could have been old dogs losing mobility. The other two have come from lines with no signs or history/known cases.

My understanding, having two breeds where it’s recognised there have been cases and doing my own research extensively, is that the testing is not as black and white as with other testing and an affected test is actually an at risk test, and doesn’t mean that the dog will ever necessarily be affected by dm? I was also under the impression the only 100% diagnosis was necropsy/post mortem on spine but I’m happy to be corrected/learn more if there is now more recent developments with testing.

To be clear, I am very pro genetic testing.

Having had a dog who developed degenerative myelopathy, it would make sense to me to only breed from dogs who have tested clear.

It is heartbreaking to have to make the decision to PTS a dog who is pain free, otherwise healthy and has a zest life but who is becoming progressively paralysed.

 

[P3LH]

Thank you for your responses. It’s interesting that there seems to be so much disparity in terms of breeders views about the reliability/accuracy of the testing. I know some breeders in various breeds who are pro test and very vocal about it, and others who are very vocal regarding their concerns about accuracy and gene pools.

I fear maybe it really as much of a double edged sword as some say.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't know any GSD breeders who are against DM testing. DM used to be commonplace and now it's pretty much unheard of in show and performance lines, for me it's a no-brainer.
Where it matters most is for the Joe Bloggs pet owner. They and their dogs are the ones who suffer because of this disease.

If one can't establish a breed line without producing and selling dogs that lose the power of their legs and the ability to toilet themselves, then one would perhaps want to rethink their priorities or the viability of one's chosen breed.

 

[skinnydipper]

Thank you for your responses. It’s interesting that there seems to be so much disparity in terms of breeders views about the reliability/accuracy of the testing. I know some breeders in various breeds who are pro test and very vocal about it, and others who are very vocal regarding their concerns about accuracy and gene pools.

I fear maybe it really as much of a double edged sword as some say.

I think you have Rough Collies, Luke.

This was my dog who developed DM. I adopted him from the Dogs Trust when he was a year old.

 

[Bellasophia]

Deja vu ,Luke. We hashed this topic in 2014 .
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/search/1802232/?q=DM+testing&t=post&o=relevance

DM is also rife in your beloved breed corgis..

I discussed st poodles ,as I tested my own dog after his uk litterbrother (breeding stud of many uk litters )tested positive as a carrier for dm.
Ive never,nor ever will breed my boy,but was surprised to see he also was a carrier for DM.
I contacted the breeder,and the swedishkennel club..who both emphatically said that DM is not in st poodles,so they won’t recommend testing for it.
The results of uk laboratory testing disproved that,but neither contacts wanted to say it should be tested for in st poodle breeding.
My dogs father was top stud in Sweden,twice world champion ,multi ch titled..holds every ch title in all of Europe..he is top eu sire and stands behind almost every European silver breeding kennels.
I had registered my result,alongside the litter brothers ,in st poodle health database and referred them there.
Either the sire,or the mother is a carrier of DM. Fact.
Even the poodle database doesn’t say the dm is on their recommended health testing list... but has recorded that the litter has two pups tested positive as carriers for the condition. ...uk stud and my boy.
it’s a start.

sadly many breeders will say dog has been tested for Dm and is free of the illness...without stating the dog is a carrier.( true ,carriers dont usually go on to develop the illness,but it is vital to know their genotype status if breeding is considered.).

 

[P3LH]

I think you have Rough Collies, Luke.

This was my dog who developed DM. I adopted him from the Dogs Trust when he was a year old.



View attachment 60148

He was lovely. I am so sorry for your loss.

I find it very interesting as in both breeds of mine, well three if you count smooth collies which one of my roughs actually cropped up in the litter of, I have heard copious amounts of breeders showing huge reservation around the accuracy of the test and whether the situation of DM is black and white.

I can only think of a small number of breeders in both rough collies and Pembroke corgi’s who actively test for it which again I find interesting given some of the posts here based on other breeds and how much of a ‘given’ this is.

I guess for me I don’t particularly have a strong view on it but am intrigued to know more. It wasn’t something I became aware of until after I had bought rough collie number 1, he is the one who lost his father and an aunt to losing mobility suddenly but both were 14 and it wasn’t the classic sort of features of dm.

I think what really does interest me is the difference in attitude between breeders in certain breeds it would seem.

 

[Bellasophia]

I liked your post for a really interesting discussion Luke_H (as I’ve come to expect from you!) - I know nothing about DM but I know the same debate exists about syringomyelia in cavaliers, where an MRI scan does NOT prove a genetic predisposition.....

...but surely ,using mri tested ,syringomyelia free ,stock to breed from is the way forward for the breed? It does say it is a guideline and not conclusive..but again,it’s a start.
https://cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm

 

[CorvusCorax]

I can only think of a small number of breeders in both rough collies and Pembroke corgi’s who actively test for it which again I find interesting given some of the posts here based on other breeds and how much of a ‘given’ this is.


I think what really does interest me is the difference in attitude between breeders in certain breeds it would seem.

German Shepherds used to be rife with, and/or crippled with hip and elbow dysplasia, epilepsy, DM, etc etc. While the breed is far from perfect, it took breeders to be brave, go public and remove dogs who were often outwardly healthy themselves, but which were proven to be transmitting problems, from the gene pool.
On the continent, if dogs test positive for certain health conditions, they cannot play - they are banned from breeding, showing or working, the progeny can't get the required papers and pretty much no one wants them. Most of these dogs will go to pet homes, so there's a knock on bonus for the ordinary dog owner who doesn't have to cope with a sick or dying animal.
It sounds punitive, but it incentivises better breeding and it's all recorded on a database so a) people can see results, it isn't swept under the carpet and b) it helps the study of genetic diseases. Most breeders will post their Laboklin results on Facebook or Working Dog.
Spine issues are now becoming a bigger issue, so that is now tested for as well, as part of the HD/ED scheme and a prediction on the likelihood of OCD is now included as well. Like I say there are still health problems, because it is a numerically large breed and there is fraud, because, well, humans, but it is a much better system IMO.

 

[MurphysMinder]

As far as I am aware the DM test only tests for one gene, which is why some people say it's not worth it, but in my view anything that reduces the incidence of this awful condition is worthwhile. I know it is stated that it can only be absolutely diagnosed by PM but sadly I think most GSD breeders are well able to recognise it. I have lost a few dogs to it, I suppose you could say it was never officially diagnosed but sadly I know the signs all too well.

 

[Moobli]

I think anything that may help reduce incidences of this horrible disease is a good thing but the test should be taken for what it is and not as a definitive.
The test doesn’t prove dogs will never suffer from DM but only shows they are clear of the exon 2 gene which has been shown to play some part in the disease in the GSD (not sure about other breeds). That doesn’t mean to say a dog tested as “clear” will not get DM, just as one tested as “affected” will go on to suffer from it.

A friend recently had to have his 8 year old working line GSD put to sleep due to DM (not sure whether it was confirmed pm) so, while not particularly common as far as I know, it’s still out there.

 

[{97702}]

...but surely ,using mri tested ,syringomyelia free ,stock to breed from is the way forward for the breed? It does say it is a guideline and not conclusive..but again,it’s a start.
https://cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm

That’s exactly the point I was making - an MRI scan does NOT prove your stock is syringomyelia free.

Incidentally you don’t need to quote websites at me - my mum is president of the Cavalier Club, she knows rather a lot about this ?

 

[Moobli]

The Breed Health Coordinator in the GSD wrote an article about DM testing