Do all good breeders breed purely trying to achieve a perfect standard?

[Archiesmummy]

With so much breeding going on and many puppies destined for domestic homes rather than for breeding programmes, would a good breeder breed purely to achieve the highest possible breed standard or are standards dropped to produce litters of pedigrees but of not such quality, temperaments taking much consideration.

I have a beautiful Chihuahua and reading the breed standard I believe she is of a decent quality. Not show quality perhaps but overall a nice dog. Her temperament is excellent. So would I be wrong to consider breeding a litter or two with her. I do not think I will be contributing to achieving the perfect Chihuahua but I tend to think her pups, if I choose a stud well, will be decent with fabulous temperaments and at the very least I would be keeping the pedigree, whereas I see so many crosses now. In one hand I think it irresponsible to even think about breeding, so many pups being sold, whereas on the other hand I think if I ensure she is fit and healthy and is not a poor specimen and I use a good stud is there any harm when all I wish to do is ensure I am not doing anything detrimental, or would I be?

I have been trying to research and build up a base of people whom I can gain knowledge from and learn from. Unfortunately, a good appear to be in it for financial gain, churning out litter upon litter, rather than produce a decent, good or excellent pup.

I will be very honest, please do not shoot me down, I would like a litter because a) I think I have a lovely dog who would be an excellent mother and who would produce lovely puppies and b) having owned dogs all my life and now being a housewife I feel I have an opportunity to be able to look after my bitch and puppies well and I have never been in a position before to contemplate having a litter. In the past I have had dogs speyed.

 

[{97702}]

If someone is breeding dogs for show or working purposes, then yes they should only breed with the intention of producing a puppy which is as near to the required standard as possible.

I would disagree with someone who posted on here recently (very sorry, I really cannot remember who) who said that dog show judges will compare dogs against each other on the day - in my experience that is not the case, they compare the dog against the breed standard and will place highest those dogs who mostly closely match that standard in their opinion.

I personally would very strongly advise against breeding from your bitch, but then I am a rescue zealot through and through as I have seen at first hand the damage caused by over-breeding nationally

 

[Archiesmummy]

Thank you, PN. Having rescued all three of my dogs several cats and rabbits, I understand where you are coming from. However, I am adamant if I choose to breed I would do as much research as possible and ensure pedigree, not mix, of good quality.

 

[{97702}]

Well yes, with the greatest respect because I truly do not want to offend you, that is what an awful lot of people say when they want to breed from their bitch.

For me there is not sufficient reason for you to breed? Simply wanting a litter from your bitch because you love her (which of course is entirely understandable) is not a reason to have a litter from her, however well you choose your stud dog etc. Put it this way, if she were a good show specimen (for example) then the breeder would have kept her and she would be in the show ring?

However as I say, I really don't want to upset you

 

[Archiesmummy]

No, PN, not at all. That's why I post, to get constructive feedback as sometimes I, and no doubt many others, cannot see the wood from the trees. However, if I choose to I WILL research, am trying to now but encountering nice but not necessarily responsible people. I do not want to be irresponsible, hence my post. Nothing has been decided.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Breeders should breed to improve on their bitch yes. I bred a litter from my bitch last year and even though I knew that they would be going to pet homes I spent a lot of time finding a dog that I thought would complement my bitch and hopefully improve her faults.
If I owned a chihuahua (and I have in the past), I would be very reluctant to breed from her for 2 reasons. Firstly, they often have trouble whelping, which means there is a good chance a c section would be needed, and worst case scenario the pups and/or bitch would be lost. The other reason is the trend for chis to be carried round as handbag accessories at the moment, I would imagine it would be quite hard to find prospective owners who would actually treat a pup as the dog it is, which could lead to behavioiural problems and the pup being returned.

 

[{97702}]

You may have thought of this already, but perhaps you could try contacting the chihuahua breed clubs, who should be able to put you in contact with an established exhibitor/breeder near to you? That person could give you an idea of how closely your bitch matches the breed standard, and what a suitable stud dog might be for her if she is to be bred from. I appreciate that it will be only one persons opinion, which is always subjective, but it might be a start.

If only everyone was prepared to do their research like you are doing before they decided whether to breed a litter or not

 

[Dobiegirl]

http://www.dogstuff.info/to_breed_or_not.html



I own a very rare breed, a Lancashire Heeler, they are on the KC vunerable list and she has won in the show ring, she is fully health tested and she is more than capable of fufilling what she was bred for. We will be having her spayed when the time comes as we will not breed from her. I am against the amount of dogs going into rescue and so we will be making a stand, if we bred her we could guarantee backup for life and have them back if need be but I cant guarantee if Pips pups are bred. Obviously her pups would only go to suitable homes but peoples lives change,people move so by not breeding we will not have that worry. If we want another LH we will buy one.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Some very good points made by the above posters.

I personally have no desire to breed a litter. The last bitch we had that was breedworthy died in 1997, she was a terrible mother, her first litter was to a male we would not have chosen (she was on breeders' terms, while he was an English champion he did not suit her at all character wise) and the second, which would have been a dream litter, all died. We have loved ALL our dogs but we have been able to look at them with a critical eye.

The main reason is that I don't think I would breed, is because there is nothing I could produce that would be better than what other people are producing. Why would I breed a whole litter from a bitch or stud my dog when I could buy one dog or import one dog, dogs that are already alive and on the ground, which would be better than what my own dogs would have to offer?

a) I think I have a lovely dog - EVERYONE thinks they have a lovely dog.
I think a lot of people (not necessarily you, OP) cannot look at their own dogs unemotionally for just a moment!

The last bitch we had was bought as a breeding *prospect* and she had a wonderful pedigree. She had very glamorous looks. Sadly she was a total fruitloop. Her full brother (balls off) is a train wreck of skin and stomach conditions. None of the litter will be bred from, with any luck.

I saw this on a GSD forum the other day and it really struck a chord with me:
"Everybody who breeds for only one special market does wrong.
DIVERSITY of the German Shepherd in its origin means breeding ONE breed suitable for all.
This breed wasn´t bred to be the best in ANYTHING, but to be good in EVERYTHING.

As soon as a breeder breeds for a single market and not for the breed, he is doing wrong, and I really don´t care, if it´s a show- or workingline breeder."

My own breed has suffered hugely because of people breeding 'nice' dogs for 'pet' homes and turning it into another generic sofa surfing breed and breeding all the spunk and the drive and the points that make them excellent working dogs, and too much dog for the average low-energy pet home, out of them. People who drive this market are the people who want a dog that looks like a German Shepherd but acts like an elderly labrador.
Good character/temper and showline looks/working ability and above all HEALTH are not mutually exclusive.

Sorry, another wee breed-specific ramble from me

 

[Archiesmummy]

http://www.dogstuff.info/to_breed_or_not.html
I own a very rare breed, a Lancashire Heeler, they are on the KC vunerable list and she has won in the show ring, she is fully health tested and she is more than capable of fufilling what she was bred for. We will be having her spayed when the time comes as we will not breed from her. I am against the amount of dogs going into rescue and so we will be making a stand, if we bred her we could guarantee backup for life and have them back if need be but I cant guarantee if Pips pups are bred. Obviously her pups would only go to suitable homes but peoples lives change,people move so by not breeding we will not have that worry. If we want another LH we will buy one.

DG, thank you for your post. If you had decided to breed from your girl, if she was of quality, could you not put a bar on her papers? I have a neutered male cat. I got him neutered at the request of the breeder. He was unneutered when I got him but that was the deal. I honoured that. I do sometimes think it was more for the breeders benefit than the breed, having been told he is an excellent example and the fact she kept him for six months herself makes me wonder if she had earmarked him for breeding herself. She kept two, still has the other which is a zillion x champ worth his weight in gold. There are honest people who would do as you ask. I did.

 

[Archiesmummy]

CC, as usual a very constructive and informative post. Thank you x

 

[MurphysMinder]

You can have KC papers endorsed to stop a dogs progeny being eligible for registration, but plenty of people still breed and just don't bother registering the pups. In quite a few cases I suspect this is why designer cross breeds happen too, people can say quite truthfully that parents are KC registered and omit the fact that they were sold as not to be bred from.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I could put a bar on her papers but the unscrupulous will always find ways around that, we have given this a lot of thought especially as they are such a rare breed. As CC said you could probabley go out and buy a pup of better quality to what we could breed. Another thing to consider if we lost her due to whelping and it does happen, we could never forgive ourselves as she is loved very dearly and is irreplaceable in our eyes.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I am sure there are a few on here who would argue with you AM but thanks

 

[Star_Chaser]

There are some very good points above. Personally if I were you and knowing that you are only breeding for a pet market I wouldn't advise you to at all.

Here are a few reasons why not:

There are plenty sitting in rescue waiting for a home why add to that situation?

There are complications the bitch can have which could result in losing your dog altogether especially certain breeds and the toys are no different.

As an unknown breeding only for the pet market you could find yourself stuck with your puppies, could you feasibly retain all that you breed??

Can you take them back when your owners decide that they don't want or can no longer cope with them? Many that bounce usually have behavioural issues not from their breeding but the lack of training by their owners.

Can you support for at least the average lifetime of your breed the owners through all their ups and downs?? Its not easy my last litter was a good 5 years ago and even now on a weekly basis I have at least one of them contact me for advice, support and not always about their dogs. These days you can't just sell a puppy take the cash and that be the end of that.

Can you pay any vet fees if there are problems with the litter (obvious health issues) you won't be covered by any insurance so will be fully responsible for the costs.

Do you know how to take care of a bitch in whelp?? And her future offspring?? They don't always just do it themselves... can you revive or do the basic first aid??

Then you have the financial side of things like is there a market for your breed or has it slowed down?? We are in a recession and lots of breeds have lost favour.

These are just a few reasons not to do it. That doesn't include the raising where you are basically mum for 8 weeks, the cleaning up you have to do especially if a wet time of year where you can't pop them out to the loo etc

In all honesty unless you are seriously doing it for the breed I really wouldn't bother.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also, people who say that they 'only want a pet' - all of our dogs have been bred by show breeders (the current youngster from a working breeder) and they have all been pets again, having a known pedigree, coming from health tested parents, and being a pet, is not mutually exclusive. Some of the pedigrees of ours would make you weep, but they were just too big, too small, a fruitloop, or our dear old girl bred in Nottingham, who had some brilliant attributes, just all stuck on the wrong dog and that's how we came to own her. And a fantastic dog she was too.

Only two, three or maybe even four dogs out of a litter in my own breed would meet the exact standard to do well in the show ring or on the working field or in service - the rest end up as pets. Just thinking of some of the 'greats' - the record for my own breed I think would be three champions in one litter. Would have been five had one not died and the other been shown more.
And the other two were pets

Working wise, it would be unusual to see more than two or three from a litter competing or making the grade for police work.

 

[milor]

Your post highlights the dilemma we face in pedigree dogs - we are all told that breeding only from the best to the best will do but this leads to very narrow gene pools and in some breeds the overuse of particularly excellent examples of the breed can leave breeders with no where to turn when and if a health problems becomes rife...... increasingly breeders are becoming aware of the importance of maintaining diversity within their breeds , this must mean surely using dogs that are perhaps not of such good quality but who carry alternative lines -

If I were you I'd contact the Chihuahua Club of GB http://www.the-british-chihuahua-club.org.uk/ ask to be put in touch with an experienced breeder or judge of Chis and go along with your bitch for a frank appraisal of her - this may include some things you won't want to hear BUT if you explain what you are trying to do your mentor should be able to suggest stud dogs that will help improve on her faults - it goes without saying that if she has structural, temperament or health problems then she should not be bred from no matter how much diversity she brings !.

But a bitch that's oversized or has the wrong shaped ears or an incorrect tail set can be improved on within a few generations - train your eye by going along to shows and seeing some really good examples and this will give you a good idea of what you are aiming for.

..and as an aside the majority of show breeders will have pups that they sell to pet homes - there is no reason why a pet puppy should not also be of excellent quality too -in fact personally I would not sell my pups to anyone who did not view them as pets first and foremost !

 

[CorvusCorax]

But shouldn't a numerically large international breed have plenty of lines to choose from without the gene pool narrowing?

 

[milor]

numerically the breed may be large but if only a tiny percentage of them are shown ( it's estimated that only 2% of all dogs are ever shown )and then this number is further reduced by only using the most successful and by eliminating those with health or temperament issues the reality will be that many dogs within a breed will be related to some degree or another - yep we can now import dogs from abroad, take our bitches to Europe or even further for mating or use AI and frozen semen but take a look at any breed database and you will see the same names appearing within top wining dogs worldwide.

The Vizla 'Yogi' (Ch. Hungargunn Bear It'n Mind ...) has sired 100's of pups within many different countries including 79 litters in the UK alone can you imagine the decimation this could cause in a breed if he passed on a genetic problem ? -

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh absolutely - we have it in our own breed, the Sieger every year and the dogs in the top rankings are heralded as THE dogs to breed from, but the judging system promotes dogs from certain bloodlines and the bottlenecks are ridonculous and as you say some problems do not become apparent until it is too late (my own dog, inbred on Ursus Batu and Yasko Farbenspiel, both heavily used - we now know both can transmit allergies/skin problems)

In later years Siegers have come from complete wildcard lines but again the breeding train (they are allowed 100 matings in a year I think) starts rolling.

And someone posted a pedigree elsewhere the the other day of a dog with over 70 lines to a known epileptic producer of English breeding. While he did not fit himself, he transmitted it, but by the time people knew, all those litters were on the ground.

The smart breeders outcross and more people are using working lines to try and stablilse the breed and reintroduce a bit more drive.

 

[Archiesmummy]

Years back my father bought a Golden Retriever pup as our pet. Later he took it to a couple of shows and it swept the board. Both the breeder and associates desperately tried to get my father to breed with him but having young children my father thought that once our GR got the taste for getting jiggy he might get jiggy with the little ones. An excellent example, hailed as a top class dog, it was aid better than his brother who consistently won at top shows, but sadly his greatness was never passed down to any progeny.

Family pets are sometimes top top quality and I would only consider breeding, like Milor says, if assessed by someone who knows what they are talking about and I could assist the breed. I take on board what the majority are saying and will not consider for 'just' the pet market but with an aim to enhance the breed. Only then might I and I say might consider breeding. Is this acceptable? Will contact Milor's recommendation very soon x

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wish more people would take this much consideration! You could also try showing her lightly, if the feedback is positive, and at least get her a grading or critique as a good example of the breed.

 

[Luci07]

I wouldn't breed. With all the good will in the world and I respect your original thought process as it shows how you are considering everything carefully.

I get to see a percentage of the heartbreaking and frantic posts of rescues trying to get dogs out of pounds and the PTS list. Pounds only need to hold onto dogs for 7 days before the dog goes on the PTS list. My facebook page gets filled up with these dogs every day. The dogs are normally young, mostly staffie x though seeing other breeds now as well. Dogs are thrown out of cars, tied up and left, stuck in boxes outside rescue. Fair few Chis chucked out as well. These dogs have done nothing wrong, invariably they aren't even a year old.. Battersea alone had 96 dogs dumped on them between Christmas and NY. So please, don't breed.

As you love your breed and seem to have the space and time, what about fostering or helping a rescue dog? Sure Chis must have a welfare?

 

[emm0r]

I am very interested in the rottweiler breed and one day I would like to breed and achieve as close to perfect as I can. However there are so many bog standard dogs there is no need to add to the surplus. my bitch is a nice example of the breed however has a tooth missing and so I will never breed from her. there are so many dogs in rescues and in rubbish homes I do not ever want to be someone who supplies to these monsters. I feel that people should support the people who are doing things properly. If your bitch is nice and you have access to her pedigree maybe you should try and find a relative?

 

[Kaylum]

I agree with a lot that has been said about not breeding, too many rescues already etc etc, I would also say as I believe has already been said that if you take your girl to a decent stud dog owner that you have researched extensively i.e. dont take them there cause someone has said so, research its lineage and look at what the puppies have turned out like and the owner will want to see your girl first before even letting her near your dog. Ask for references and follow them up.

If they aint bothered walk away they are just after the money.

But I have to say I wouldnt breed dogs. I dont have the facilities, the money, the time but most of all I dont have enough experience and then there is the vetting of the homes. What happens if you have a return after a few weeks?

 

[milor]

Ethical breeders do not add to the rescue problem - rescue centres will remain full to bursting unless puppy buyers change the way they buy - all too often they choose breeders that involve no travelling, no waiting, no questions asked and who will sell their pups more cheaply with the reasoning that " after all it's only a pet"...they buy a pup because " it's SOOOO cute" without a thought for it's suitability or their readiness to take on the responsibility and the breeders they go to simply don't care where their pups go as long as the buyer has the cash

Puppy farming is a profitable business unwittingly supported by rescue centres who enable the irresponsible or frankly uncaring breeder to wash their hands of what they produce -the quickest way of reducing the numbers in rescue is not to ask good breeders to stop breeding but to ask all puppy buyers to only buy from breeders who microchip every pup they produced thus making them traceable back to them and who issue contracts undertaking to personally take back or help re-home any pup they bred ....of course this would mean people actually doing some research, going on a breeder's puppy list, waiting some length of time, travelling many miles and being asked awkward questions (and yes sometimes being being turned down).

.......it's very telling that when breeds like Siberian Huskies, ( for example ) were exclusively bred by a small band of committed breeders who followed their breed club code of ethics http://www.siberianhuskyclub.com/aboutshcgb/codeofethics there was no rescue crisis in the breed - now sadly this is a breed with a huge rescue problem because BYB and puppy farmers have capitalised on the cuteness of a Sibe pup and this most specialised of breeds is now ending up in cooped up in a tiny urban backyard with all the behavioral problems this often brings ! - what kind of sense is it to stop those that are doing it right leaving ONLY those that are doing it wrong for puppy buyers to choose from ?

 

[Luci07]

Ethical breeders do not add to the rescue problem - rescue centres will remain full to bursting unless puppy buyers change the way they buy - all too often they choose breeders that involve no travelling, no waiting, no questions asked and who will sell their pups more cheaply with the reasoning that " after all it's only a pet"...they buy a pup because " it's SOOOO cute" without a thought for it's suitability or their readiness to take on the responsibility and the breeders they go to simply don't care where their pups go as long as the buyer has the cash

Puppy farming is a profitable business unwittingly supported by rescue centres who enable the irresponsible or frankly uncaring breeder to wash their hands of what they produce -the quickest way of reducing the numbers in rescue is not to ask good breeders to stop breeding but to ask all puppy buyers to only buy from breeders who microchip every pup they produced thus making them traceable back to them and who issue contracts undertaking to personally take back or help re-home any pup they bred ....of course this would mean people actually doing some research, going on a breeder's puppy list, waiting some length of time, travelling many miles and being asked awkward questions (and yes sometimes being being turned down).

.......it's very telling that when breeds like Siberian Huskies, ( for example ) were exclusively bred by a small band of committed breeders who followed their breed club code of ethics http://www.siberianhuskyclub.com/aboutshcgb/codeofethics there was no rescue crisis in the breed - now sadly this is a breed with a huge rescue problem because BYB and puppy farmers have capitalised on the cuteness of a Sibe pup and this most specialised of breeds is now ending up in cooped up in a tiny urban backyard with all the behavioral problems this often brings ! - what kind of sense is it to stop those that are doing it right leaving ONLY those that are doing it wrong for puppy buyers to choose from ?

I do agree with what you have said, and there is a good argument that decent breeders need to keep going to actually keep the breed up. If your suggestions were implemented that would really help and if we could change public perception and understanding then the current problem would really be drastically. However, in this instance, I really wouldn't breed and understand from some of the "proper" breeders I have talked to that they have cut back on the litters they have now as well.

 

[CorvusCorax]

That's another point about stud dog owner - they will ideally want the female to have had all the health tests/has a suitable pedigree/be a good example of the breed rather than just take the cash and do the breeding. A *lot* of problems can come through the dam just as much as the sire.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Ethical breeders do not add to the rescue problem - rescue centres will remain full to bursting unless puppy buyers change the way they buy - all too often they choose breeders that involve no travelling, no waiting, no questions asked and who will sell their pups more cheaply with the reasoning that " after all it's only a pet"...they buy a pup because " it's SOOOO cute" without a thought for it's suitability or their readiness to take on the responsibility and the breeders they go to simply don't care where their pups go as long as the buyer has the cash

Puppy farming is a profitable business unwittingly supported by rescue centres who enable the irresponsible or frankly uncaring breeder to wash their hands of what they produce -the quickest way of reducing the numbers in rescue is not to ask good breeders to stop breeding but to ask all puppy buyers to only buy from breeders who microchip every pup they produced thus making them traceable back to them and who issue contracts undertaking to personally take back or help re-home any pup they bred ....of course this would mean people actually doing some research, going on a breeder's puppy list, waiting some length of time, travelling many miles and being asked awkward questions (and yes sometimes being being turned down).

.......it's very telling that when breeds like Siberian Huskies, ( for example ) were exclusively bred by a small band of committed breeders who followed their breed club code of ethics http://www.siberianhuskyclub.com/aboutshcgb/codeofethics there was no rescue crisis in the breed - now sadly this is a breed with a huge rescue problem because BYB and puppy farmers have capitalised on the cuteness of a Sibe pup and this most specialised of breeds is now ending up in cooped up in a tiny urban backyard with all the behavioral problems this often brings ! - what kind of sense is it to stop those that are doing it right leaving ONLY those that are doing it wrong for puppy buyers to choose from ?

^^^Bingo! This!^^^

 

[siennamum]

I have had this debate with myself. I have bred 3 generations from our marvellous old EBT bitch. She bred one litter which was outstanding and resulted in a few really decent show dogs and 7 pups who went to lovely lifelong homes. I have her daughter who produced a fantastic litter which resulted in 2 stud dogs, who are v good show dogs. I was tempted by the money I could have charged for the pups also. 7 x £1000 is not to be sniffed at.
My ex has gotten a dog puppy now from one of my bitches grand daughters.
I decided though that although I loved breeding, enjoyed showing and I liked the money, one litter was enough. There are simply too many dogs in rescues. I won't have another pedigree and will get my next dog from a rescue.

I might have felt differently had she been a rarer breed, but bull breeds are treated horribly and there are too many about, so no more breeding for us again. I have to say I would feel the same about Chuihahas.