Do any of you keep a humane killer / gun at home just in case?

RunToEarth said:
? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.

I think this is the most odd thread I've seen in a long time. I think you need to review your vet/knackerman, I have never had to wait more than 20mins max.
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Depends where you live, I'd be waiting an hour. It's a very good question and making me realise that I need the numbers of the local men who shoot deer.
 
moana said:
You do need a licence for a gun AND a humane killer. Even few vets have a licence for a humane killer. The average Joe Blogs won't have one.
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No, you don't:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/Frequently Asked Questions.htm

Q 16. Do I need a firearms licence to use a captive-bolt device?
A 16. Captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'section 1' firearms status in February 1998. This means that a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of the percussive device. However, a valid slaughter licence is required to use any captive-bolt device for the purpose of stunning livestock, except in emergency or casualty situations. Operators should be fully trained and knowledgeable regarding the positioning, firing, maintenance, ammunition and effectiveness of captive bolt stunners. It should always be remembered that captive-bolt devices are percussion stunners, not humane killers, and stunning should always be followed by immediate bleeding or pithing to ensure death. Animals intended for consumption should not be pithed; they should be bled.


Follow this link in order to purchase the HSA Guidance Notes on ‘Humane Killing of Livestock Using Firearms’ which provides guidance on the use of shotguns or free bullet weapons including correct gun operation, ballistics, how animals should be shot, types of equipment available, using the right ammunition, safety and maintenance.
http://www.hsa.org.uk/Publications/Guidance Notes.html
 
Mithras said:
No, would that not be taking the HHO obsession with pts a bit far?

Obviously we have to think about these things, but whats with the constant threads about pts?
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Yes I was thinking this...!

DanceswithCows said:
.....That said, we have not used the bolt gun. The instructions are in german and it's been quicker and more efficient to simply use a large knife!!
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:eek3: I can't decide which is the worst part of this sentence....:eek3:

RunToEarth said:
I hope to god your OH never attempts to dispatch anything larger than a rabbit with a 410........I honestly don't think people should be allowed a shotgun licence with such ridiculous thoughts. I hope this post is a joke.
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This is what I said earlier. I can't quite believe that people actually in possession of a shotgun licence think it would be a good idea to try kill a horse with it. It would not work and would be a total disaster!

RunToEarth said:
? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.
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Very true.

guido16 said:
My biggest concern on this thread is everyone talking about GUNS. It isn't a gun you need, it's a rifle.
My OH had done it several times but would never ever consider a shotgun. It has to be a rifle. He had to also kill a dog once and used a rifle. The effects of a cartridge compared to a bullet would be devastating
Now, he has a shooting business and does a lot of stalking so is a good aim. But, that's irrelevant, you don't shoot a horse from half a mile. It needs to be standing very still so you can accurately shoot (as game bird said) from right next to it.

If people think you should shoot a horse with a shotgun then basically you shouldn't even be considering it!
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And this, totally.

Basically, in laymans terms, a rifle shoots a single small 'bullet' if you like.
A shotgun shoots a cartridge full of small bits which spread out as they fly.

Completely different weapons with completely different actions. As I've already said, if you tried to kill a horse with a shotgun (or worse, 410) you would be unlikely to kill it cleanly, and more likely to just increase its pain and panic.

Ring the vet or knackerman, and try and keep the horse calm until the professional arrives.
 
Our kind, sensitive huntsman uses a 38 Webley - small, discreet, and very, very effective.

I cannot imagine the horror of trying to shoot a horse with a shotgun.

Actually, yes I can, because I have seen the devastating effect it has on a person :(
 
You can shoot a horse with a shotgun.
We had a cock up with my ex vets practice about 10 years ago and the trainee vet couldn't pts the old pony with a needle and didn't have a gun. I spoke to another vet a few days later and he said you can shoot them with a shotgun, and it is legal. (I won't post the instructions how to on here!).
Another case, out hunting a horse broke down completely and was PTS by the terrierman using his gun, wich I believe is a short barrelled .410, although it comes under firearms rather than a shotgun license because of the short barrels. There was a vet out hunting that day and he supervised the shooting, although he didn't pull the trigger.
Has to be said though, much as I now know in a desperate situation my OH would shoot a horse for me it would have to be pretty dire indeed.
 
DanceswithCows said:
No, you don't:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/Frequently Asked Questions.htm

Q 16. Do I need a firearms licence to use a captive-bolt device?
A 16. Captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'section 1' firearms status in February 1998. This means that a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of the percussive device. However, a valid slaughter licence is required to use any captive-bolt device for the purpose of stunning livestock, except in emergency or casualty situations. Operators should be fully trained and knowledgeable regarding the positioning, firing, maintenance, ammunition and effectiveness of captive bolt stunners. It should always be remembered that captive-bolt devices are percussion stunners, not humane killers, and stunning should always be followed by immediate bleeding or pithing to ensure death. Animals intended for consumption should not be pithed; they should be bled.


Follow this link in order to purchase the HSA Guidance Notes on ‘Humane Killing of Livestock Using Firearms’ which provides guidance on the use of shotguns or free bullet weapons including correct gun operation, ballistics, how animals should be shot, types of equipment available, using the right ammunition, safety and maintenance.
http://www.hsa.org.uk/Publications/Guidance Notes.html
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Actually the original poster was correct. The HSA guidance you have quoted refers to captive bolt stunners (no licence required in an emergency), which are different from humane killers (firearms licence required). Most people on this thread have been using the terms interchangeably, but they are actually totally different things. It's easy to tell the difference if you remember that you still need to kill the animal after use of a captive bolt (pithing/bleeding), whereas a humane killer does what it says on the tin.
 
Clodagh said:
You can shoot a horse with a shotgun.
We had a cock up with my ex vets practice about 10 years ago and the trainee vet couldn't pts the old pony with a needle and didn't have a gun. I spoke to another vet a few days later and he said you can shoot them with a shotgun, and it is legal.
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I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...
 
RunToEarth said:
I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...
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Absolutely!
 
RunToEarth said:
I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...
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There are some very naive ideas about guns and rifles on this forum, let alone PTS! If you don't know what you are doing, get someone who does (e.g. vet, knackerman, gamekeeper, farmer, etc).

Here is a very comprehensive site with the full explanation:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/firearms/firearmsdownload.pdf

This is what it says about equipment.... Note the .410 and .22!

Equipment
The use of free projectiles for the slaughter or killing of animals is not limited to the single shot, free-bullet humane killer, as widely used by veterinary surgeons and knackermen. Other types of handguns (adapted or otherwise), rifles and shotguns
can also be used with equal effect. Often, the use of a shotgun may be preferable to other methods for both animal welfare and operator safety reasons. Indeed, where emergencies arise on farms, shotguns are often more readily available than any
other weapon.
The most commonly used equipment includes:
 Humane killers (specifically manufactured/adapted, single-shot weapons and 'Bell Guns’ of various calibres)
 Shotguns (12, 16, 20, 28 bore and .410)
 Rifles (.22, .243, .270, .308)
 Handguns (various calibres from .32 to .45)

The bottom line must surely be, if you don't know what you are doing, leave well alone. Or get training. Or get someone who does.

Guns and rifles are lethal weapons and even the small calibres generate enormous force which is why they all have to be proof tested in manufacture. Direct that force in the correct concentration into the most vulnerable area and the smallest weapon will kill the biggest animal.
 
Again, thanks to everyone who'se contributed to what I know is a somewhat odd and macabre thread. I hope none of us ever need any of the information here, but I feel a little more comfortable being more fully informed.

My take-away from this is that i will be putting the knackerman's number into my phone, just in case.
 
Goldenstar said:
Heavens no you have to know how to use such a thing and be experianced at doing it
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This. I would be absolutely horrified if say my horse was on livery and the YO shot it - obviously they'd only do it in the worst case, but you'd never know if they did it properly and quickly. I keep my horses privately and no, we have no guns available. No way. If the absolute worst happened and the vets were taking too long then in an extreme case I would probably just ask any of my next door farm neighbours - all of whom have gun licenses.
 
MagicMelon said:
If the absolute worst happened and the vets were taking too long then in an extreme case I would probably just ask any of my next door farm neighbours - all of whom have gun licenses.
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Holding a "gun licence" doesn't mean your farm neighbour is any more capable of shooting a horse than you are - a lot of people who hold shot gun licences struggle to kill a sporting pheasant outright, let alone confidently shoot a horse without causing it any harm.

I completely agree with Dry Rot here - very naïve thoughts on what it takes to cleanly shoot a horse at close range. Just because someone four doors down is in legal possession of a shotgun does not make them a sensible choice to shoot what is effectively a very large pet.
 
RunToEarth said:
Holding a "gun licence" doesn't mean your farm neighbour is any more capable of shooting a horse than you are - a lot of people who hold shot gun licences struggle to kill a sporting pheasant outright, let alone confidently shoot a horse without causing it any harm.

I completely agree with Dry Rot here - very naïve thoughts on what it takes to cleanly shoot a horse at close range. Just because someone four doors down is in legal possession of a shotgun does not make them a sensible choice to shoot what is effectively a very large pet.
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But I have three neighbours who would be very capable of doing this .
 
Goldenstar said:
But I have three neighbours who would be very capable of doing this .
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Hi GS. I wasn't replying to you in particular, there are, obviously, people out there who are capable of humanely dispatching horses with a gun, I am not implying that there aren't. What I was trying to get at, is that there seem to be a lot of people who think it is as simple as anyone with a shotgun/rifle would be able to shoot your horse. Theory put into practice could see that going fairly badly wrong.
 
When I had a lot more sheep I used to have a 12 bore shotgun, I despatched any sheep with it as necessary but I would not have attempted to shoot a horse with it.
 
guido16 said:
My biggest concern on this thread is everyone talking about GUNS. It isn't a gun you need, it's a rifle.
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A rifle is a gun, as is a shotgun. Anyone considering shooting a large animal with buckshot needs to evaluate their gun knowledge. I don't know if you have big game slugs over there but I have bear slugs here and they are fired from the rifled barrel of my 12 gauge (my 12 gauge has interchangeable barrels). Slugs take down bears and would most certainly do a clean job of shooting a horse at close range through the head. I shoot pigeons with my .410, and once I had to shoot a baby raccoon with it (had to be dispatched poor thing) but I certainly wouldn't consider shooting anything much bigger than that with it. I hold a full Firearms Certificate which allows me to purchase and use a number of different types of guns. For those only wishing to have a shotgun, a Firearms Licence is no longer required over here.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Or a canula?
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Cannula and catheter are loosely interchangeable, though cannula is the more exact term to apply to a tube inserted with a needle intravenously.

In terms of skill, I would say inserting a cannula into the neck vein is pretty much on a par with penetrating the brain by shooting. For both, it is essential to know where they are exactly. The big difference between them is what happens if you get it wrong.
 
I just quizzed OH. I give you that he is experienced, having spent most of his youth in hunt kennels, but he said he would be happy to shoot a horse with a shotgun and didn't even think the size of shot would have a major impact because you would be so close to the skull that the pellets wouldn't have spread anyway.
 
Noticed in the news that the police shot a horse on the road in Cambridshire this morning - Presumably with a handgun? certainly not a deerhunting rifle. Not an ideal situation and I'm sure they did what was necessary

Proof that sadly these situations do occur so the number of your emergancy knackerman is a key thing you should always carry
RIP poor pony
 
Festive-Fen said:
I would not personally want to do the job.

But very sadly when the vets from two different practices called failed to turn up to a horrendous road traffic accident with a horse from our yard. The yard owner asked the police if he could go back to the house and get his rifle (deer stalking type don’t know the size) put the poor horse out of its misery double broken front legs and still trying to get up. Everyone was in total shock and the police were wonderful in doing what they could poor horse. YO had to shoot the horse luckily he is a very good shot and the horse was done in one. Worse for me was the vets called NEVER came.
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Oh how awful.....

Well done to your YO for being so on the ball. Terrible that the vets never arrived, that's surely breaking their duty of care? Did you ever get an explanation for their no show?
 
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