Do dogs ever get over a fear that causes a violent response?

[Slightlyconfused]

Just a musing really but grounded in my dogs.

Bit of story my three year old collie got one well with the new pup, playing, sleeping together etc when one day he flew at her for walking past his feed bowl, then for chewing a bone. At first she cowered but then fought back. Took him down the vets and a x ray later his HD had gotten worse with the added benefit of spondylitis. Tried pain killers bit they would work for a week then.he would turn on the others for just walking past him.

One sunny Friday he turned on the big collie for just bumping into.him then growled at me and ran and hid when I stopped him.
I.knew then.what I had to do, I think.I had known all.along but I just couldn't cope with it, I.just sat and sobbed and he crawled over to me and hugged me as if to say it's okay mum.
Three hours later he was put to sleep.

The little pup grew up a bit, was a bit nervous but working with her training she was getting better, as she was only eight months old and big collie is nine and starting to show it we thought getting her a younger play mate would help her when the time comes for big collie.

Found a lovely cocker pup, got home and all.okay until pup put nose in bigger pups food bowel. Growl and snap and a pin to the floor resulted in a screaming pup and once we had thrown something at bigger pup she snapped out of it and seemed to get scared and started bringing toys to us and little pup.

This happened a few times and then a trip.to the vets confirmed she was having a mother of phantoms. Galastop sorted that out.
No having little pup over piles of clothes l, starting playing, a small hick up over chew bones but that's now sorted after supervised chew sessions they now play tug of war with them.

They are the best of friends, running round th.house and garden, play.fighting taking turns to.be on top. Playing tug of war with chews, sleeping together etc.

Now the one thing that's still an.issue is food, dinner time they are separate little pup has learning not to got near big pup when feed bowels are out and they are not left alone when eating and bowels.come straight off the floor once finished.

Now tonight I did big pup.her biscuits, put the in.the.bowl by hand then wiped.my hand on my trousers as you do.
Sat on the floor a while later with.big pup.next to me and little.pup comes up for a cuddle then starts sniffing my leg big pup joins in and I twig a split second too late there is 'main food' smell on.me and big pup flys at little pup. Smack on.the.nose of big pup to shock.her out of it and a screaming little pup running off.
Big pup instantly starting bringing little.pup.toys. Little pup understandably is weary and after some cuddles next to me and them kisses between them.they are playing as if it didn't happen.

Little pup is currently gummimg big dogs throat pretending to pin her......

Now from what I have seen and my.trainer agrees that.big pup has been scared so.much. By my three year old.collie.before I put to sleep that she has a fear response to little.pup going near her food. She doesn't do.it with big collie.

We worked on the chew bones and that's all fine now but I was just wondering big.pup is 13 months, we will all ways be vigilant with feed etc but do.you think.her fear will ever fade? Or was it imprinted at a too young an age?

I really regret not putting to sleepy collie sooner, it broke my heart but I and so worried he has permanently caused big.pup to.be defensive over her food.

Thoughts and opinions?

 

[Bellasophia]

When a dog resource guards it's food I don't think you can ever trust them with food or treats in same room with another dog...even if you stand by supervising in the room whilst they eat there will be tension.
My suggestion is to never feed them in the same room together.If you give a bone or a chew,separate them .Dont let them use chews as toys to play / tug together..
I would also spay the older dog as phantoms will return after each season.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

When a dog resource guards it's food I don't think you can ever trust them with food or treats in same room with another dog...even if you stand by supervising in the room whilst they eat there will be tension.
My suggestion is to never feed them in the same room together.If you give a bone or a chew,separate them .Dont let them use chews as toys to play / tug together..
I would also spay the older dog as phantoms will return after each season.

She has been spayed, all my dogs are after the first season. They aren't fed in the same room but the two rooms are connected. it's big collie first, big pup then little pup.

With treats they get them in.the order I want to give out and she does not stress over that. If I'm.training while on a walk and call little pup back to treat a.good recall big pup just carries on till her turn.

The chews are now no longer an issue, they will happily chew sitting next to each other or big pup will sleep with little pup chewing curled up.next to her. I've worked with my.trainer about this and she is okay with.it.

 

[Bellasophia]

Your post wasn't clear...you did say she was having a phantom..hopefully the spay will sort the hormonal surges..
She sounds like she is still resource guarding,with you as the resource...my bet is twiggy and Carla will be very experienced with this..I would still not give treats in same room until you get a handle on this.

 

[Dry Rot]

I've nothing to add except to wonder why the OP puts up with it. I am top dog in my kennel and anyone growling gets a swift clip around the ear! That is what happens in a big kennel of dogs. The alpha keeps order.

 

[stormox]

I think your post is muddling to read- Im not sure which dog is which, are you talking about 3 or 4 dogs/pups? Is big collie 3 yr old collie,or are you saying pack demographics have changed since the older dog was pts? Or do you mean dog now pts scared a pup in the past making its behaviour unacceptable now? I would either feed them totally separately, or watch them while theyr being fed and stamp on any misbehaviour.

 

[aintgotnohay]

I've nothing to add except to wonder why the OP puts up with it. I am top dog in my kennel and anyone growling gets a swift clip around the ear! That is what happens in a big kennel of dogs. The alpha keeps order.

gosh couldnt of put it better myself.i have 7 dogs living together.i dont tolerate any ***** from any of them.the top dog keeps them in order end of.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Buy the book Mine by Jean Donaldson, its all about resource guarding. Ive ordered this book for Christmas for a friend of mine whose terrier resource guards her. If I am there and spot her looking Ive only got to point my finger and say her name and she goes all coy and stops, Op you do need to step up and pre-empt things, and get your dogs respect.

 

[Clodagh]

I've nothing to add except to wonder why the OP puts up with it. I am top dog in my kennel and anyone growling gets a swift clip around the ear! That is what happens in a big kennel of dogs. The alpha keeps order.

DR and AGNH - that is a very outdated response I'm afraid, you are supposed to be best friends not top dog.
(I add I would do exactly the same, young lab has started flexing her powers against old lurcher, and won't let old lurcher be patted by me. She only tried it once and got a hard poke and a growl from me, now she knows she has to put up with it).

I always feed in seperate rooms, including treats, but if they have something unexpected and are together I would not put up with any aggression at all, even a stiff body gets squashed.

 

[Alec Swan]

DR and AGNH - that is a very outdated response I'm afraid, you are supposed to be best friends not top dog.

I always feed in separate rooms, …….. .

Presumably, you're opening line was with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, considering the remainder of your post!

Regarding the remainder of your post, I'd agree except for the feeding regime. Whilst with dogs it's generally best if we remove temptation, we arrive at the point, as we advance in our thinking, where the dog learns to resist temptation. I often think back to 40 years ago when I fed tripe to my dogs; They'd sit in a row (sometimes 8 dogs) and as each name was called whilst a lump was lobbed in the recipient's direction, so they'd grab it and it was gone whilst they waited their turn for the next round. Pack-discipline is best maintained at feeding time because it's the time of the greatest temptation for dogs to fall out with each other and as that's not what we want, so we reinforce our control level. 'Outside' and 'enjoying ourselves' when we want the dog to be compliant, accepting and understanding of our authority, is not the time for dealing with basics. Feed time is where basic discipline can be reinforced and it's the time which we often fail to make use of.

Alec.

 

[stormox]

I agree with enforcing discipline at mealtimes, and dogs waiting to be told its ok to eat, its their turn, whatever.But only if OP has complete control over the older,bigger dogs. My friend had a placid old labrador, had never snapped or even snarled at anything in her life, or guarded anything possessively. But one day she snapped at the new terrier puppy who came too near her bowl, and bit its whole muzzle off. Poor little pup was only 5 months old.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Sorry maybe I shouldnt post when I am.tired.

I had four dogs, a 9 yr old collie, a 3 yr old collie, a 14yr cavi and a three month old labxcollie.

The three year old collie started attacking the pup over food etc then went on to attack the.big collie just walking past him. He was pts a.few weeks later when it became apparent the pain killers were not helping him. He had spondylitis and HD

All was fine then.lost the 14 year old cavi to old age.

Got cocker pup a few weeks later and then the labxcollie after having her first season went into a bad phantom so had to put back spaying. Attacked pup when.she put head in her feed bowel. When.sniffed the same pile of clothes, over bones. Once on.the galastop she was fine except for feed bowels so just fed in different rooms, bowels are up as soon as they're finished and pup knows not to go near.

Labxcollie has been.spayed.three weeks ago.

They are fine with treats, I train them together and each wait their turn. We have training classes each week and she is loving them.

Last night was a mistake on my part I just didn't wash my hands. She is completely fine in all.other areas and I truly believe it was because of the three year-old collie she is like this over food.

I just wish I was strong enough sooner to put him to sleep as soon as I saw his x rays rather than go with the vets pain killers then she wouldn't be like this.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Presumably, you're opening line was with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, considering the remainder of your post!

Regarding the remainder of your post, I'd agree except for the feeding regime. Whilst with dogs it's generally best if we remove temptation, we arrive at the point, as we advance in our thinking, where the dog learns to resist temptation. I often think back to 40 years ago when I fed tripe to my dogs; They'd sit in a row (sometimes 8 dogs) and as each name was called whilst a lump was lobbed in the recipient's direction, so they'd grab it and it was gone whilst they waited their turn for the next round. Pack-discipline is best maintained at feeding time because it's the time of the greatest temptation for dogs to fall out with each other and as that's not what we want, so we reinforce our control level. 'Outside' and 'enjoying ourselves' when we want the dog to be compliant, accepting and understanding of our authority, is not the time for dealing with basics. Feed time is where basic discipline can be reinforced and it's the time which we often fail to make use of.

Alec.

They get fed in order, big collie, labxcollie, pup. All in different areas each sits until bowel is placed in.front of them. I.can.move or pick.up.the food, same with.bones.or toys I can take them away if I want and they do not do anything.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I had to read your first reply even slower than I usually read, but by giving myself time to think while I read, I didn't feel that it was confusing.

Anyhow, personally, all my dogs have to learn to eat in the same room, I wouldn't tolerate to have it any other way, and that goes for meals, gnaw bones and treats.
In your shoes, I would probably begin with re-reading Turid Rugaas book On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Talking-Ter...8&qid=1448286722&sr=1-5&keywords=turid+rugaas), and some of my other dog books (the book Dobiegirl suggested sounds interesting, Mine!: A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs by Jean Donaldson http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mine-Practi...qid=1448287272&sr=1-4&keywords=Jean+Donaldson), then I would think through what my own body language is actually saying to my bitches, and then I would do the opposite of what some other replies have suggested.
I would take them out for a walk first, to make them a bit less energetic, and after making sure that I was focused on myself/my body language and on what my bitches are doing/their body language, I would take a dog feed bag, put down their food bowls a bit apart with myself in between, and step by step get them to accept to eat their food a bit closer to each other (but perhaps not exactly next to each other).

I would deliberately make sure that my hands smelled of food, and then train my bitches to accept that that is nothing to overreact about. I would deliberately try to repeat the latest situation that went bad, by "accidentally" rub food smelling hands on my legs, and demand that my bitches ignored it. And do whatever else I felt for doing with food, around them. Because with a case like yours, I would prefer to deal with the problem in situations that I've arranged.

 

[Clodagh]

Presumably, you're opening line was with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, considering the remainder of your post!

Regarding the remainder of your post, I'd agree except for the feeding regime. Whilst with dogs it's generally best if we remove temptation, we arrive at the point, as we advance in our thinking, where the dog learns to resist temptation. I often think back to 40 years ago when I fed tripe to my dogs; They'd sit in a row (sometimes 8 dogs) and as each name was called whilst a lump was lobbed in the recipient's direction, so they'd grab it and it was gone whilst they waited their turn for the next round. Pack-discipline is best maintained at feeding time because it's the time of the greatest temptation for dogs to fall out with each other and as that's not what we want, so we reinforce our control level. 'Outside' and 'enjoying ourselves' when we want the dog to be compliant, accepting and understanding of our authority, is not the time for dealing with basics. Feed time is where basic discipline can be reinforced and it's the time which we often fail to make use of.

Alec.

They all stand in the larder doorway while I mix it, then I come out carrying the three bowls and they all charge off to their area. I do it as if I only had one meal a day I would not want the faster eaters staring at me, waiting for me to lift my muzzle out of the bowl for them to check it is empty.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I had to read your first reply even slower than I usually read, but by giving myself time to think while I read, I didn't feel that it was confusing.

Anyhow, personally, all my dogs have to learn to eat in the same room, I wouldn't tolerate to have it any other way, and that goes for meals, gnaw bones and treats.
In your shoes, I would probably begin with re-reading Turid Rugaas book On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Talking-Ter...8&qid=1448286722&sr=1-5&keywords=turid+rugaas), and some of my other dog books (the book Dobiegirl suggested sounds interesting, Mine!: A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs by Jean Donaldson http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mine-Practi...qid=1448287272&sr=1-4&keywords=Jean+Donaldson), then I would think through what my own body language is actually saying to my bitches, and then I would do the opposite of what some other replies have suggested.
I would take them out for a walk first, to make them a bit less energetic, and after making sure that I was focused on myself/my body language and on what my bitches are doing/their body language, I would take a dog feed bag, put down their food bowls a bit apart with myself in between, and step by step get them to accept to eat their food a bit closer to each other (but perhaps not exactly next to each other).

I would deliberately make sure that my hands smelled of food, and then train my bitches to accept that that is nothing to overreact about. I would deliberately try to repeat the latest situation that went bad, by "accidentally" rub food smelling hands on my legs, and demand that my bitches ignored it. And do whatever else I felt for doing with food, around them. Because with a case like yours, I would prefer to deal with the problem in situations that I've arranged.

Thank.you.so much for taking the time to read and reply. This is my thinking and my trainer said that she will eventually with the right work.be okay with it.

I will.have a look at the.books thank.you.

The reason why I.have started feeding big collie out the way is he is going blind and prefers to eat where he is alone. Other wise he has.been.fed.next to.her. The others I will work on.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

...

The reason why I.have started feeding big collie out the way is he is going blind and prefers to eat where he is alone. Other wise he has.been.fed.next to.her. The others I will work on.

That is actually a reason that I can unerstand, if one of my bitches was going blind and seemed to want a bit more space around her food bowl, I would try and give that to her.
But in general, I've taught my bitches that they're only allowed to eat from the food bowl that I put down in front of them, so it doesn't matter how fast or slow they eat, they know that they're not allowed to go and look for leftovers in the other bitches bowls, therefore when they've finished their meal, they just leave and goes and do something else.

Hope you find something that works for you and your dogs.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I've nothing to add except to wonder why the OP puts up with it. I am top dog in my kennel and anyone growling gets a swift clip around the ear! That is what happens in a big kennel of dogs. The alpha keeps order.

Just what I was thinking. I can't see the point of feeding them all separately, they will never learn to tolerate another dog around their food. I would feed at least 2 of them in the same room, stnading between them, so that tneither is tempted to move away from its own dish and jump swiftly on any movement towards the other dish. I don't understand why the younger pup was allowed to put its nose into another dog's dish. If I've understood the OP?

TBH, having re-read/read further, I dont think it is because the old dog went for your younger one, I think the problem is that you allowed the new pup to put its head in the other dog's dish, presumably wqhile there was still some food in it. Why would you allow that?

 

[Alec Swan]

……. , Op you do need to step up and pre-empt things, and get your dogs respect.

Rarely truer words on this forum. Dog training is about recognising what the dog's about to do, but before they do it. 'Reacting' to a dog's behaviour is mostly, too late and the strong minded dog will all so often be happy to put up with the rebuke. Retrospective training or correction, is generally a waste of time.

Alec.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Just what I was thinking. I can't see the point of feeding them all separately, they will never learn to tolerate another dog around their food. I would feed at least 2 of them in the same room, stnading between them, so that tneither is tempted to move away from its own dish and jump swiftly on any movement towards the other dish. I don't understand why the younger pup was allowed to put its nose into another dog's dish. If I've understood the OP?

TBH, having re-read/read further, I dont think it is because the old dog went for your younger one, I think the problem is that you allowed the new pup to put its head in the other dog's dish, presumably wqhile there was still some food in it. Why would you allow that?

The.younger pup was used to communal feeding at her breeders. They all fed out of the.same bowl so to her it was normal.
Now she doesn't go near older pups bowl even checking for leftovers.

And I didn't allow it, she was quicker than me I and got to.it before I could tell her no. In.her mind it's okay to share as that was what she was reared on.

They are fed separated but can.still.see each other while.eating. I amnslowly moving the bowls closer together but at a pace is right for them.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

That is actually a reason that I can unerstand, if one of my bitches was going blind and seemed to want a bit more space around her food bowl, I would try and give that to her.
But in general, I've taught my bitches that they're only allowed to eat from the food bowl that I put down in front of them, so it doesn't matter how fast or slow they eat, they know that they're not allowed to go and look for leftovers in the other bitches bowls, therefore when they've finished their meal, they just leave and goes and do something else.

Hope you find something that works for you and your dogs.

Thank.you
This has always been that case for my others, this time it's just taking longer to get to.that state. The.young pup is learning though.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The.younger pup was used to communal feeding at her breeders. They all fed out of the.same bowl so to her it was normal.
Now she doesn't go near older pups bowl even checking for leftovers.

And I didn't allow it, she was quicker than me I and got to.it before I could tell her no. In.her mind it's okay to share as that was what she was reared on.

They are fed separated but can.still.see each other while.eating. I amnslowly moving the bowls closer together but at a pace is right for them.

Puppies usually are fed communally at the breeders but I can't think of one that we have had which has ever got its head into another dog's dish while it was still eating and we have fed up to 7 at a time. I would have hoped that the oldest one trusted you enough to keep his food safe that he would not need to be separated to eat. They learn over the years what you will and will not allow.

Anyway, the point is that it is unlikely that your older pup was remembering that the older dog went for her but that she was telling the younger one to keep away from her food. As others have said you need to take control of the situation and not allow them to put their heads into/approach the other dogs dishes. They won't know that its not allowed unless you teach them.

 

[Alec Swan]

The.younger pup was used to communal feeding at her breeders. They all fed out of the.same bowl so to her it was normal.
Now she doesn't go near older pups bowl even checking for leftovers.

…….. .

As pearlsasinger has pointed out; litters of puppies are fed in a communal sense, at least all mine are. Your youngest pup has now been taught manners but the older dog and it's entirely natural and how it should be. Just as what we teach our dogs in our kitchen and garden can be carried forward in to our every day relationship with our dogs, so the dog which put the small pup in its place and the puppy, will now have a better understanding of each other. It's the basics of pack hierarchy and as we have nothing better in place, so it works. They're dogs!

Your last line; I really wouldn't be moving the bowls closer to each other, as it WILL happen again, or the pup simply won't want to feed whilst it feels intimidated. Adult dogs need their space from each other I feel, and especially where food's involved. The dynamics of a pack relationship will change as dogs grow and mature, and when they're mature, I would NEVER place two feed bowls within reach of each other. It's asking for conflict in my view.

Alec.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would NEVER place two feed bowls within reach of each other. It's asking for conflict in my view.

Alec.

Really?

I have never had any problem feeding all dogs in the sme room, as I said up to 7 bitches at a time. In fact, when I think about it, the 7 became 9 at least once a week. We had an entirely different group of 5 years before that, mixed dogs and bitches. Never had any trouble, they knew better.
The Rottweilers eat next to each other currently and are trained to sit when they have finished and wait politely for the other to finish - no predicting which will finish first!

TBH it would never have occurred to me that there might be any trouble, which, I presume, is why there never has been - and we have introduced both new pups and adult dogs and bitches to the pack. Having said that we have always been vigilant and would never let a newbie interfere with another while it is eating, or vice versa. But woe betide any who start arguing about it!

 

[Alec Swan]

Really?

……..
The Rottweilers eat next to each other currently and are trained to sit when they have finished and wait politely for the other to finish - no predicting which will finish first!

……..

Yes really, but then I never ask of my dogs any form of drilled obedience, perhaps that's the difference between our approaches.

Alec.

 

[planete]

Having had multiple rescue dogs who come with possible unknown triggers, I have always made a point of giving them their own space to eat in. It stops any possible aggression and means they can eat their meals without feeling they have to gulp it down. It is all part of making them feel secure and allowing them to relax. For the same reason I never expect them to do anything before they get their meals, so far they have all waited quietly for me to put the dishes down. For me and for them, meals are to relax and enjoy. As long a they are polite and respectful I see no reason to mess them about.