Do horses pick up vices from other horses?

Do horses copy vices from one another?

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Mince Pie

Mince Pie

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As above.

I have a horse that windsucks occasionally, usually when her routine is changed or she is stressing about something. My YO said that if it turned into a 'proper' habit then she would have to go as the other horses on the yard would copy her.

Now I have worked in competition yards where a lot of the horses have had some sort of vice. I have never seen any horse copy another. At a livery yard I was at there was a horrendous wind sucker, no other horse copied him either. So I wonder where this thought process has come from and whether you think that it is true or not.
 
No they blooming well don't. Your YO is a wally and you should point it out to her. I could probably trawl pubmed and find a few studies into this but I can't be bothered, it is Saturday and I need to go and muck pick!

Next she'll be telling you white feet are weaker than black ones!! :D
 
I have had several windsuckers/cribbers in my time and have never had another horse take it up for a hobby.

Weaving is another matter. Have a horse weave and if there is a horse in a stable opposite and it too is likely to start weaving.

If you have a horse that weaves stand in front of it as it is rocking and within a few minutes you will find you are moving in time with the horse.
 
I've never seen or heard of any horses picking up bad habits/vices, or for that matter good "habits " .... the non door kicker doesnt rub off on the door kicker , the non-cribber doesnt "teach " the cribber to stop etc etc ... I have to admit tho that some yards do have more horses with "vices " than others but then if you look into the way its run or the feeding , management etc you find thats the problem thats caused the cribbing etc . Some horses do continue to weave/crib/windsuck after their problem is sorted as , I understand , they do it to sooth stomach ulcers or whatever and endorphines are released and over a period of time its sort of habit forming ... needing the fix . I know how unbearable my other half is if he doesnt go training everyday ... he needs that fix ! I manage to get over the urge with a cuppa and chocolate ( maybe thats my "habit/vice " !!!!).
 
jesstickle said:
No they blooming well don't. Your YO is a wally and you should point it out to her. I could probably trawl pubmed and find a few studies into this but I can't be bothered, it is Saturday and I need to go and muck pick!

Next she'll be telling you white feet are weaker than black ones!! :D
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Ha! Yes we did have a bit of a debate about it an agreed to disagree. However she's been on the yard nearly 3 months and still no sign of the others doing it ;)
 
I know horses that have picked up windsucking. One in particular started not wind sucking and spent time with a windsucker that, now the owner can't sell it. Other horses pick it up slowly then do it more as they learn how to do it.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I have had several windsuckers/cribbers in my time and have never had another horse take it up for a hobby.

Weaving is another matter. Have a horse weave and if there is a horse in a stable opposite and it too is likely to start weaving.

If you have a horse that weaves stand in front of it as it is rocking and within a few minutes you will find you are moving in time with the horse.
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I have never found weaving any different to windsucking. There was a weaver at the yard I'm on and none of the other horses copied the habit.
 
We had a weaver and both horses either side started to do it and they had been stabled there years with no problem so would never have a weaver. I know it's not classed as a vice as such but bloody door banger, dangerous how that goes round a yard. No problem until one door banger turns up and honestly every horse apart from 1 now does it. That's 11 horses in total.
 
I would say poor management systems on yards lead to vices not horses
lack of company/socialiation.
lack of turnout
lack of chewing/food. Have seen two ponies chew a wooden stable till there was nothing there because some nut had them in 24/7 in the dark
When will people learn that have horses have evolved over thousands of years to live in social groups outside with trickle feeding roaming miles daily and then wonder when they are but in a 12'x 12' box on there own for a least 12hrs a day if not more and wonder why for some it causes problems.
Then blame the horse?
Some horses like people are more suseptable to stress and will not cope with poor management whilist others appear to switch off. Before you blame the horse look at it enviroiment and see what can be done to improve it.
Stable yards are mainly designed for the the benifit of the humans who are perhaps there 2 hours a day or its looks with little thought for how the horse reacts with its surroundings who spends half its working life in there.
Horses are not bothered wether the yard has been swept ,what colour your rug is, wether it has the newest gaget in its mouth, or you've bought super improved feed with extra XYZ . Most of them just want a buddy and the oppotunity to eat for most of the day and that makes for a happy horse.
I am sorry if I am ranting but vices are essentally a man made problem, and it our duty as responsible owners to negate the effects of our management systems if they are having a detrimental effect to a horses wefare, not blame the horse for its reaction to stress and its enviroment.
 
on the whole, no they don't. Obviously there are one or two exceptions.
Foals however will pick up habits from there mothers so if you have a mare who is a windsucker chances are that the foal will copy. Adult horses far less so.
 
Well I actually disagree with you all. There is a groom on my yard who's always got a fag in his mouth. Well, a couple of months ago I found some tab ends in my box - of course I was concerned but a few weeks later I found an empty packet of Benson and Hedges and some matches. I decided I would catch them out so hid one evening and kept watch.... Lo and behold my 15.3hh Anglo Arab was puffing away on a Pall Mall menthol cigarette whilst the Shetlands were sharing a Slim Panatella cigar. Let this be a lesson to you all! Watch your horses.:cool:
 
millreef said:
Well I actually disagree with you all. There is a groom on my yard who's always got a fag in his mouth. Well, a couple of months ago I found some tab ends in my box - of course I was concerned but a few weeks later I found an empty packet of Benson and Hedges and some matches. I decided I would catch them out so hid one evening and kept watch.... Lo and behold my 15.3hh Anglo Arab was puffing away on a Pall Mall menthol cigarette whilst the Shetlands were sharing a Slim Panatella cigar. Let this be a lesson to you all! Watch your horses.:cool:
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well at least it wasnt a 'herbal' roll up.......
 
No they certainly don't. Find some studies, print them off and give them to your YO :p

It's unbelieveable the amount of liveries I've had move in turned away from other yards as the YO thinks other horses will copy their vices!
 
bakedbean said:
I am actually going to agree with you on something, although i wouldn't label it a "vice".

Food association.
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And door opening, one watched the other one do it and copied we watched as he did it.

Door kicking drives me mad and they do copy although its funny as they cant actually see what makes the noise they must be guessing that you kick the door. LOL!
 
As a general point, it is easy to imagine that if one sees two or more horses performing the same 'vice' in the same yard that the behaviour must have been copied between horses - but the explanation that the behaviour has the same external cause, such as imbalanced feeding, needs to be ruled out first.
 
No. I had a cribber who was in the same stable for more than 7 years (and it faced onto the other stables), and NONE of the other horses at that bit of the yard ever did it.
 
Ah, door kicking and food association. Yes, they will copy as they see the door kicker gets attention/food from it so they decide to copy it. This is not the same as wind sucking, weaving and I wouldn't call it a "vice" either.

I hate door kickers.
 
Yes door kicking does my head in!
Mill reef - :D brilliant
Honeypot I completely agree with you!
Sorry can't quote as on my phone
 
Wagtail said:
I voted yes, but I am referring to door banging. My mare has succeeded in teaching both her neigbours this!
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Same as this, my coloured mare taught my youngster to bang doors and to grind his teeth along the wall separating them in the stable.
As for weaving and wind-sucking, on the whole I don't think they are copied, but as said before foals are much more likely to copy their mothers if she windsucks.
 
Well, horses copy horses.

A foal follows the mare when she comes to call, therefore he learns to come to call etc, etc, etc. They learn by example so who is to say that there is no reason why they can't learn a 'bad' habit as opposed to a 'good' one.

I have never known a windsucker, cribber, weaver to 'pass on' the vice, but just because I personally haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, ever, somewhere.
 
I think there's a difference between a horse learning to a novel act - something it would not normally do - by watching others perform a behaviour, and mimicking an innate or hardwired behaviour, like lying down, rolling, yawning or pawing - which is a kind of social facilitation. Do 'vices' come into the first or second category?
 
HLOEquestrian said:
Same as this, my coloured mare taught my youngster to bang doors and to grind his teeth along the wall separating them in the stable.
As for weaving and wind-sucking, on the whole I don't think they are copied, but as said before foals are much more likely to copy their mothers if she windsucks.
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I agree. The only thing I have seen copied is door banging.
 
fburton said:
As a general point, it is easy to imagine that if one sees two or more horses performing the same 'vice' in the same yard that the behaviour must have been copied between horses - but the explanation that the behaviour has the same external cause, such as imbalanced feeding, needs to be ruled out first.
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What do you mean by imbalanced feeding? :confused:
 
Total nonsense imho. I think some horses are more inclined to develop vices, and when put in a situation that promotes said vice (stress, management etc) will exhibit it. My horse has a vice. He used to be stabled opposite a horse that had every single vice going, including banging his head off the door, except for the vice my horse has. Surely if they copied each other these two would have shared their habits?

I bite my nails when stressed, or deep in thought, I don't think I have caused anybody to start doing this who did not do so already!
 
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