Do horses struggle to cope with loss?

Cortez said:
Having had a stud farm over many years, and having a couple of orphan foals, as long as there is another horse to "adopt" the foal into the herd and look out for him/her (not necessarily to provide milk), they seem to just get on with it. Some foals can be a bit low on the pecking order after, but as long as they don't get the " ah, poor ickle orphan" treatment from the humans, they do alright, worst thing ever is a human-raised orphan foal, though.
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I bought once a hand raised mare a five yo a strapping ID/ TB she went by the name of Poppet this ought to alerted me to what was to come when trying her it took three people to lead her one on each side and another running in front with a bucket .
A Poppet she was not but she was a nice type with good limbs so I bought her she was a handful.
 
Cortez said:
Having had a stud farm over many years, and having a couple of orphan foals, as long as there is another horse to "adopt" the foal into the herd and look out for him/her (not necessarily to provide milk), they seem to just get on with it. Some foals can be a bit low on the pecking order after, but as long as they don't get the " ah, poor ickle orphan" treatment from the humans, they do alright, worst thing ever is a human-raised orphan foal, though.
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We are talking cross wires I am referring to my horses offspring not necessarily young, my boy was 12 years old last year been a mummies boy all his life very very close and we weaned at home adjacent field so the closest of bonds remanded.
 
I've decided its very arrogant to assume we know what any animal feels. Its like me stamping on your foot in stiletto heels and telling you it doesn't hurt. How the hell would I know??!

Recent research has shown that Killer Whales have much more highly developed emotional centres in their brains than even humans. They stay in their pods for life. How on earth must they feel when their babies are taken (to be kept in a tank for human amusement). Ten years ago no body would even have thought that the above could be possible as its 'just' an animal.

Yes I understand that horses are a different species but maybe in ten/twenty years time we will look back and wonder with our new knowledge what we assumed about them now.

Might put a new take on the buying and selling of horses and assuming that they should be able to settle with any environment we put them in....? I would have thought that as far as a horse is concerned selling their best mate can be a traumatic as their best mate dying...

Just a few thoughts!

From personal experience I am sure that horses grieve in their own way. For example an experienced broodmare Id owned for a long time lost her filly at four months. She stood by the body for hours, even when the rest of her herd had moved away. She even tried to follow it onto the trailer when we eventually had to remove it. She was the easiest mare to wean from her foals as we did this when she told us they were both ready, would never pine. She pined for her filly. I knew she didn't go back to her old self for a long time, a fact which became 100% clear when she gave birth to her next foal two years later. If she could have jumped for joy she would have done and her personality was back to 'normal'. I was quite shocked to realise how quiet she had become. Vets are now researching how an owners judgement on a familiar animal can give early indications of illness and injury. So I don't feel that an owner saying 'my horse hasn't been the same since their best mate died' is any different.
 
We lost our old boy just over three years ago (heart attack, we think, in the field, my bf was there and so was his best friend Sol, who had been sharing the field with him since he was 2. Sol has not been quite the same since, seems to have lost his mojo, rather. He now shares with my new boy Eric (had him about 18months) and he tolerates him, and only he is allowed to bully him, but the bond isn't the same at all. At least he's stopped going out to the feild all ears pricked and eager, looking round for Jasper, then sort of slumping when he realises he's not there.
 
Interesting thread. Here are my experiences. I had 2 mares that lost foals. The first mare's foal ran into a gate and died instantly. That particular mare waa fine like nothing happened. The second mare's foal needed put down after another mare attacked her. At any rate left this mare with her baby all day as vet said it was fod the best. Said mare did not leave her foal to eat or drink so at this stage we decided it was best for her to be moved and foal needed to be taken away. She broke my heart leading her away calling for her and turning back. It had been 8 hours. Vet had to come give her tranq. The next day I had her out with a mare friend in a turnout pen. We had another mare and foal in a field nearby. It was a client mare and foal was about a week old. Said foal kept running away from her mom up to a close fence and whinnying to Stella. Stella kept whinnying back. It was best to move the other mare and foal. Stella was off kilter for a week.

Now when I sent Abba away for training for 9 months I was a little annoyed that her lifetime friends could have cared less. But that was me being human. But when she came back and I put her in the small paddock, her and her lifetime friends called and came running up to see her. Different whinnies. And mine are well used to different client horses being here. This was different. It was cute.

I think you can't play too much into it really. As someone else mentioned no different than selling. Long term friends are probably more out of sorts and may not enjoy the company of the other field mate as much. Sometimes these things only become apparent when the herd dynamics change.

Terri
 
Lilmissy,

I'm surprised research needs to be done to find out that owners can spot early illness/injury in their horses. Seems part and parcel of having horses to me. You just know. Not getting at you by the way. Just over the years of observation.

Terri
 
Cortez talks a lot of sense, imo. I agree that "struggling" is not really the right word. It implies a degree of introspection and attempt at rationalization of which horses are, I believe, incapable. That's if their "struggling" is the kind that we humans typically go through with our five (or seven) stages of grief. If it's not the same for horses, maybe we should use a different word.

That said, I am sure that for some horses there is a longer lasting emotional effect of losing (or being separated from) a friend or offspring, with whom they were bonded, which could manifest in anxious and/or depressed behaviour. Separation anxiety in (some) weanlings provide the most extreme examples of this kind of emotional effect.
 
fburton said:
Cortez talks a lot of sense, imo. I agree that "struggling" is not really the right word. It implies a degree of introspection and attempt at rationalization of which horses are, I believe, incapable. That's if their "struggling" is the kind that we humans typically go through with our five (or seven) stages of grief. If it's not the same for horses, maybe we should use a different word.

That said, I am sure that for some horses there is a longer lasting emotional effect of losing (or being separated from) a friend or offspring, with whom they were bonded, which could manifest in anxious and/or depressed behaviour. Separation anxiety in (some) weanlings provide the most extreme examples of this kind of emotional effect.
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I agree with this , but am not sure what the word is .
Of course material bonds are strong and herd bonds to and horses recognise friends from long ago instantly .
But they not struggle emotionally as humans do otherwise every horse that is sold several times in quick succession would be nuts and they just aren't .
 
I have had horses which remembered each other years after being separated after selling one on. I have also had horses remember me long after they had been sold, but I don't think they "struggle". I also think owners read all sorts of emotional reactions into behaviours which are quite normal, and often assign meanings which are way off.
 
Cortez said:
Elephants are not horses, they have extremely complex and well documented social orders which are quite unlike a horse's.

Death is separation, such as would occur if you broke a pair bond by selling one of the pair or moving it. Yes, the horses may exhibit anxiety (which is why it is advised to allow herd members to view a death, which is understood), but they are not "grieving" as we would be if a family member died. Sentimentality is defined as adding meaning which is not there; humans are good at this, as attested to by all soap operas.
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No elephants clearly aren't horses. Even I can tell the difference. However, not many animals have been studied to the same degree as elephants. It may be that we just don't recognise aspects of behaviour in horses. If you don't look you don't see. As to your theory that horses are quite unaffected by being sold, why are these forums so full of people saying my new horse has changed completely from the animal I bought 3 weeks ago and I want to send him back? Of course they are stressed by it. Some hide it better than others, the same as people do.

I couldn't comment on soap operas - my time is too precious to waste.
 
fatpiggy said:
No elephants clearly aren't horses. Even I can tell the difference. However, not many animals have been studied to the same degree as elephants. It may be that we just don't recognise aspects of behaviour in horses. If you don't look you don't see. As to your theory that horses are quite unaffected by being sold, why are these forums so full of people saying my new horse has changed completely from the animal I bought 3 weeks ago and I want to send him back? Of course they are stressed by it. Some hide it better than others, the same as people do.

I couldn't comment on soap operas - my time is too precious to waste.
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I think people that can't cope with a new horse and changed behaviour are perhaps not that experienced? I don't think Cortez was saying that horses are unaffected by being sold, just that they do not have "special" reactions to death like we do and react as they would to any separation.
 
Deseado said:
I think people that can't cope with a new horse and changed behaviour are perhaps not that experienced? I don't think Cortez was saying that horses are unaffected by being sold, just that they do not have "special" reactions to death like we do and react as they would to any separation.
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When I bought mine she was pretty quiet to handle in the first couple of weeks but then she started trying it on a bit to see how I would react. I stuck to my guns and things settled down again. It didn't prevent her frequently having the last word though! But that's mares for you.

I think it is very easy say that animals are not humans and therefore don't think/react/behave in a recognisably human way. Instead remember that we are animals and then look again. Children experiencing unsettled conditions at home often play up at school. It is the only way they know how to express their unhappiness. Being shouted at by a teacher (or in my day, having your bottom smacked) is better than no attention at all. It doesn't necessarily mean they are bad children though. Going back to the subject of death again, don't forget that humans have spent millenia developing practices and rituals where death is concerned. Of course we have higher planes of thought than most animals, our brains are more highly developed. But when a when one person in a marriage dies, what is the aspect that is missed the most? The companionship of course - a pair bond, the same as any animal.
 
I am not an armchair expert like some think they are, nor do I misread my boys reactions I know him better than anyone else in the world, he became withdrawn and depressed after his mum died, even in schooling he wasn't the same. There is no mistaking how he was last year contrary to what the armchair experts think.
 
Leviathan said:
I am not an armchair expert like some think they are, nor do I misread my boys reactions I know him better than anyone else in the world, he became withdrawn and depressed after his mum died, even in schooling he wasn't the same. There is no mistaking how he was last year contrary to what the armchair experts think.
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I (someone who doesn't claim to be an expert, armchair or otherwise, but is that how I am being labeled?) do not dispute your observation.
 
Leviathan said:
I am not an armchair expert like some think they are, nor do I misread my boys reactions I know him better than anyone else in the world, he became withdrawn and depressed after his mum died, even in schooling he wasn't the same. There is no mistaking how he was last year contrary to what the armchair experts think.
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I

Is there a reason to call people who disagree With you arm chair experts .
Someone who disagrees with you can be very experianced but profoundly disagree with your view .
 
Mine lost his companion of around 10 years before Christmas, although the pony was the boss, they were mates. He has another companion pony, a mare this time and although he will wait by the gate for her to be turned out, they aren't big friends yet. He bosses her about, and I haven't seen them scratching necks or any sign of affection like that. I know this putting a human interpetation on it, but it almost seems as though he resents her NOT being his old friend.

He wasn't unduly upset when his friend was PTS, he did call out to him a time or two, but he seemed to accept that he was dead and gone but I feel that he does miss him, and I have tried to give him extra attention and fuss since.
 
Goldenstar said:
So leviathan are you aiming the comment at me ?
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Not you either :)

I was pointing out my experience with a mother and son's closeness and him being affected in many ways when she died. Every horse is different to the next, every situation is different, I have known some mares not care when their offspring taken or died.

Mine were exceptionally close.
 
I think it's being stated that we're applying human emotions to what we see and that while maybe similar, obviously different. I've seen it with mine, not studied the process on a large group. I don't feel we should be call other people out as we are only sharing experiences as you hav e. And there's more to it, I believe, than the death or removal of a herd mate. As in long term mates ect.

Terri
 
Whether my old boy was having a special reaction to death or was missing his long term companion, does the wording matter?
He went from loving life to just existing.
 
My boy went from a bolshy little git to standing at the back of stable lack of interest in any work. When I went in stable he would come to me and just hang his head down or put his head on my shoulder and just stay there till my shoulders ached. Instead of charging down the field he moped along and when in stable kept looking at her stable hoping for her head to come out. Then would come out his stable and turn left and just stand there with his head over her door, as you say teabiscuit just existing.
 
No it doesn't matter about the wording. Of course it doesn't. Why are people getting upset about what's being said? I don't think anyone should be chided or made to feel inferior in sharing their experiences. Personally I think it would make an interesting study. Might give us more of an insight.

What always makes these threads very emotive is that we are always told you can't slap a human emotion on a horse. True. But yet when looking for the words to communicate what we see or to try and interpret we rely our human speak. I don't like calling out people for that. I do work with horses for a living so I can't take them personal and have to understand them from a horse perspective. Am I guilty of being not PC when talking about my horses. You betcha. Do people then want then criticise me. Of course but these are my own personal horses that can be dealt with by anybody so oh well. I'm not perfect. I don't let my feelings take away from my workings with horses.

Terri
 
I'm not upset about the wording. I don't think "struggle" is quite right but neither do I think it matters much at all. People's choice of wording only bothers me if it encourages ways of thinking that may be to the detriment of horses, like calling a horse a wimp for reacting badly to having its mane pulled.
 
Equilibrium Ireland- I think the research was something to do with pain management in horses and the way vets treat them i.e. advising vets to pay moreattention to owners who say thier horses 'just aren't right' but without being able to say why. If that makes sense?
 
Two examples from our herd.

When we lost Joe, who was field boss, for about two weeks afterwards the herd were very tight together. No more grazing spread out all over the field, they huddled together and ate the same but of grass, moving around as one. Maybe not grief, but there was some base instinct going on there. They clearly felt unsafe as a herd. Whether that was because they'd lost one of their number and felt at risk, or whether it was because they'd lost their leader and didn't have direction I don't know.

We've also lost one half of a long term pair bond four times. When I lost Mrs P, it was an unexpected emergency, so there was no time to think about sensibilities. But years later I got one of her old rugs out to use on Lu, and when H smelt it on the floor he went nuts, pawing and sniffing like a thing possessed.

When I lost Lu through old age, I was waiting for the vet to arrive after phoning him and although she'd suddenly become very frail, she wandered over to her pair bond, H, and the two started having a very deep meeting of minds. Then, once she'd finished 'saying' what she had to say, she turned round, tottered over to me again and started to head for the gate. I got a very strong sense of 'it's OK, I can go now'. And H never grieved.

Ol was never really the same after we lost Joe. He was quite dominant but wasn't a natural leader, and the mantle of being field boss without his mate was quite stressful for him.

And then Spud has taken a good four months to get his head round the 'new world order' since losing H.

Horses don't have human emotions, they have horse emotions. The herd, and the relationships they form within that herd, are the most important things to them. They communicate on an almost intuitive level with each other and with us. This is what keeps them safe and safety is why those abilities are so highly developed.

They are also very astute at reading human emotions, more so than we are at reading them. So if you are upset and grieving, they will know, and that will affect them too. We realised with Spud in particular, the best thing we could do for him was be a confident friend to him so that he wasn't upset/confused by our grief.
 
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