Do I have an obligation to muzzle?

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itsme123

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I'll explain the background first, I'm pretty sure I've said what happened on here before but if not, here goes:


On holiday i was sitting outside an arcade with Rosie on my knee. Two girls (older teenagers) approached me and asked if they may stroke her. I agreed. She's very much a people bitch and had always been happy with kids / adults anyone stroking her.

Anyway, one of the girls made a fuss, asking all about her, and I was facing her, answering her questions. I didn't notice the other girl was out of eyesight. Rosie suddenly snarled at the girl stroking her and tried to whip round behind me. The girl grabbed her collar and pulled her back round, and so ensued a few cross words with me telling her to let go, her trying to get Rosie towards her and Rosie snapping and snarling, in which time I felt a tug on my handbag and realised the other girl was behind me trying to get into my handbag :mad:

Anyway, I got pretty upset (obviously) and started screaming at the girls, attracting the attention of security, my ex and passers by. Rosie was quite shaken and still snarling and pulling on the lead trying to snap at people.

We took her back and treated her to a piece of cod because we felt she'd alerted me to the girl trying to get into my bag. We felt really proud of her.

maybe it was something else, i don't know, maybe she just didnt like the girls ?

So fast forward. I've been having issues with her walking to heel, which over the last few days I've been working with with the aid of a half choke collar (it works!).

But, and a BIG but, I'm getting to the point where I cannot trust her with people. If people try to fuss her she snaps and snarls at them. Okay, people should ask and then me tell them no, right? Except people don't ask... they just stroll up and try and fuss her, and when I tell them "sorry, she'll bite you" (as I did today to one gentleman) I'm made to feel like I shouldn't have her in public.

Now, here's the crux. Today i did a little experiment. Took her to the busiest dog walking area, and let her off ....

So, it appears we're cool with people when we're off the lead, we're brilliant with other dogs and recall is spot on (we knew that anyway). BUT if she's on the lead she won't allow people to fuss her or come too close to the children and I. :confused:

I can stand and talk, side by side, with another dog walker, and she's fine running off and playing, it's only when we;re on the lead :confused:

This morning an elderly gentleman pointed at her and went "ooooh, doggy with big ears!" (eejit) and bent down to stroke her, I warned him not to and he went "aww she;s only little" as she snapped at him and stood hackles up, snarling and growling.
He walked off saying i should have her in a muzzle. :(

She's 100% with my kids and people in my home, and never actually bitten anyone, but I'm scared that as people generally DO just stop and stoop down to stroke without asking that it will just be a matter of time before I end up with the police at my door :(:(:(

Now, i'm of the frame of mind that people should have more bloomin sense than to stroke a strange dog without asking, but people being people, they don't.
Yesterday at the ATM she went for a kid that walked up as I was using the machine and tried to stroke her. I didn't even see the kid approaching!

Walking past people, FINE, no issues, it's simply when they stop and try and touch her.

This has escalated since holiday, so i assume linked to that event.

Should I just muzzle her for safetys sake?

Shortbread and cuppa if you got this far
 
Oh dear:( Know what you mean about people just walking up and grabbing your dog, people do it to Henry all the time and it drives me nuts!

Is there a local trainer / behaviourist that can help you? I know someone that had good results with her dog's barking at other dogs with some behaviourist help.
 
I would be inclined to muzzle her in public until you solve this problem for her own protection.

I agree with you that people shouldn't try and touch her without asking but as you've said they will - so for her sake, I'd muzzle rather than risk being prosecuted or being forced to have her pts if there is an incident.

Hopefully, once you can work with your trainer you should be able to sort it.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
Yes you should. How would you feel if a toddler bumbled up to her and she ripped it's face of? Overly dramatic but it happens time and time again...
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This is my concern. She's had opportunity to bite, but never has, I just don't want to take the risk.

She really is a loving little girl at home, very friendly. She's great at the park when shes bounding round with other dogs, this only comes out in the street, on the lead.
 
itsme123 said:
My trainer's away until the end of october :(
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Meh:(

I would probably work on focus training - take her somewhere like outside the supermarket, stand away from the door so people are not passing really close but are walking about, and get her watching you, and reward her when she does so and ignores people.

I'm sure you will be able to sort it out:) They are clever little dogs:)
 
itsme123 said:
This is my concern. She's had opportunity to bite, but never has, I just don't want to take the risk.

She really is a loving little girl at home, very friendly. She's great at the park when shes bounding round with other dogs, this only comes out in the street, on the lead.
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She's protecting you. If you take control and 'protect' her then she won't have any need to to growl/snap :)

I have 4 large lurchers, none of which bark or react aggressively in any way (though they did when I got them). They know I am boss and it is not their position to take control and try to protect me - I can protect me and them :)

They are unbothered to the point the postie can actually come into the house to drop a parcel off if we're out (we live in an area where everyone still leaves their doors unlocked...). They will guard if they need to though - in our old house we did have someone come over the garden fence - number one dog got him by the nuts and didn't let go until I came out to the screams lol
 
She is obviously protecting you and this is why the issues arise when she is on the lead. You need a really good, kind and reward based trainiing class but until you can find one I would either walk her in a muzzle or keep well away from places where there people or children who might approach her.
 
cbmcts said:
I would be inclined to muzzle her in public until you solve this problem for her own protection.

I agree with you that people shouldn't try and touch her without asking but as you've said they will - so for her sake, I'd muzzle rather than risk being prosecuted or being forced to have her pts if there is an incident.

Hopefully, once you can work with your trainer you should be able to sort it.
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I agree with this :)
 
I agree speak to your trainer and muzzle her in the mean time when you are in a place where you are likely to run unto people. Agree with Spudlet, work on focus.
Also, unless your trainer is experienced with behaviour like this, I'd seek out one who is.

She has obviously become more insecure since the incident - she got some bad vibes - but remember, you rewarded her - does everybody who approaches us want to hurt me or my mum?!
Work on your attitude - if you are nervous of her reaction, if you're worried she might snap, be sure as hell she will, because she will be picking up the stressy vibes from you - notice she is fine off-lead, but on-lead, she is certainly feeling some tension from you, whether it is intentional or not. And what happened, happened on lead.

Like I&S says - if there is any ambiguity in who is looking after your 'unit' - she will fill it. Your job is to reassure and give her confidence and say 'no, I'll look after us, missy'.

Put yourself in my position. If my dog behaved like that, people would be squealing at me to have him PTS. And if it was happening, it is something I would certainly have to debate, so you are right to take it seriously.
While he is a hell of a lot more socialised than he was when he arrived, I DO have to warn people, well, strange men, to not walk into him or me, suddenly, he has squared up to three strange men in the past who have approached me suddenly, one was a DoE student with a backpack on, dressed in black, one was a verrrrry strange man in the park, one from behind with an object held aloft in his hand :o , and grumbled at them until I told him things were OK, but has never snapped.
 
People are your problem..so I would muzzle just to avoid any possible trouble,just in case some twit complained and the authorities were to get involved.
 
Thankyou everyone for your replies.
Spudlet: Normally she'll look at people but do nothing, but since starting focus training on her half choke this week she's stopped looking. I confess, she wouldn't eat hot dog sausage and so we take hob nobs with us (her favourite treat ever) :o (please don't shoot me, she's not a food orientated dog, so ANYTHING that will get her focus has to be better than me walking the streets with her current coveted toy - a foot high yellow fluffy duck that actually makes duck noises...). Anyway, yes, I have her focus, she's trotting along nicely looking at me when i say "look". As CC warned, we did spend half a day going no further than a few doors away, but I've got that attention now. It's simply when someone actually approaches and goes to stroke her. I need to be able to transfer so she gives me that attention when someone approaches her, but her 'anger' is so great, nothing will get her attention. It's all consuming and split second :(
I'm sure she will learn, I'm just scared of what will happen between now and her learning, and wondering if I'll ever be able to trust her...

Inky and Sunny: yes, she;s very much a little guard dog at home, a true terrier in that sense. I'm that protected by her I can be confident 101% that if anyone dared come near my garden she'd be onto them. When workmen come in I close her in her crate, and she usually just yaps then settles, I let her out once shes settled and she;s fine with them, sniffs them then walks off.
The postman is a different matter :rolleyes:

Jendie: we've been to training classes for almost a year. In every other sense she;s great. Recall is 101%, she can be across the park rolling round with another dog, i call, and she's there. Someone comes to the door, I say 'bed' and she waits in her crate. Problem is, and always has been with her, that she's just not interested in food reward. For now, hob nobs are getting her attention, but we'd trained using toys as a reward, then weaned off of them, and now back to square one. As mentioned above, favourite toy is a 1ft yellow duck.... :o :rolleyes:. Many trainers insist I use food reward and it's only her breeder and our club leader (who know one another well) that are happy to work without food. It's like having a toddler that will only eat wotsits :rolleyes:.

CC : This was my lightbulb moment today. I rewarded her, and am now becoming tense when someone comes up to us. In response to that I shorten the lead...
If someone comes to the door I ask her to go to her crate and shut it before i answer the door, which i assume is along the right lines of making her realise that she isn't responsible for us. Is there anything else I should be doing?
I have to admit, she;s incredibly protective when it's just the children and I at home. The slightest noise and she's at the window, running round with her hackles up barking and growling. On the last two occasions when my fella has been here (when the children haven't) she;s been relaxed, sleeping through any noises. So she obviously sees him as being above her in the 'protection' ranks? He;s walked her once and had no issues whatsoever. And she's happy around him too, always happy to see him. I did wonder how she'd take to having a man around, and okay, he's only here perhaps once a week at the most, she adores him, and as I said, not a peep from her whilst he's here.
 
Most people avoid a muzzled dog like the plague from my experience with my greys, so it may also work in your favour in getting people to stop trying to touch her, while your working on the issue. If you opt to muzzle then read up how to gradually introduce it so that she accepts wearing it and i would be wary to leave it on while off lead as it would leave her defenceless against other dogs.
 
Yes, that was the other thing i wanted to ask, what sort should I get? And how to introduce it? Is there a certain make that's best?


And out of interest why do alot of greyhounds wear them? Is it because they wear them in training and so are used to them (I'm sorry if that comes across as a daft Q, I've just never asked why).
 
itsme123 said:
If someone comes to the door I ask her to go to her crate and shut it before i answer the door, which i assume is along the right lines of making her realise that she isn't responsible for us.

I have to admit, she;s incredibly protective when it's just the children and I at home. The slightest noise and she's at the window, running round with her hackles up barking and growling.
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Putting a dog in a crate or shutting it away every time, can work two ways - it *can* reinforce that strangers are scary and to be feared - I can't advise on this however, I can't see her body language and I don't know what the atmosphere is like in your home.

Re protective behaviour in the home - as mentioned by I&S and myself and others...you need to be the protector of your home and the protector when out and about. If you need back-up, let your guard down, sweat, squeal, fine.

You are, overtly or unwittingly, letting her know you are nervous or fearful or insecure or not in control.
Yes, this is nice in some situations, in others, not so much.
When my dad left, my mother's male dog slotted into the protector role and I will not lie, it was the death of him, and if it hadn't been the death of him, it would have been the death of someone who knocked on our door or hugged my mum unbidden - she was a single mum on her own with a tiny baby so did not have the ways and means to do any serious work with him and behaviour theories were not as advanced back then.
But he knew she was vulnerable and felt the need to protect us.

She is relaxed with your friend because he makes her feel relaxed.

I'll not lie, I do have a fearful, insecure, female, but you need to work at it and you need to have a certain attitude to make it work.
 
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A basket muzzle would be best IMO, it's open. Racing greyhounds wear them because they are very prey-driven (IE they are bred and trained to chase the hare) and if a cat, bunny, small furry dog etc pops up...)
 
I'm just thinking that we';ve got this far with the help of my trainer, I've had one to one sessions and group sessions, but I personally don't feel she'll be able to work with this as she's more of a 'heel and sit' trainer. She got us past bitch being fearful of traffic, but I felt that was more of a 'puppy' thing anyway, and a common problem.

I've the time to work with her, I'm just not experienced enough to deal with this on my own.
Half of me thinks, yes, get an expert in and get this sorted. Then I think, well, she's snapped a few times now - will i ever trust her completely? And will I have to muzzle her in public for life? And if the latter will be the case do i need the former? as she;s great in every other aspect. Okay, we're still working with the separation thing (yap yap yap when i go out which is reducing in it;s intensity) and she feels she must 'round up' the family when we're walking her off lead - she stays really close and if a child stops she runs and waits with them - but on the whole as a family dog, she's great. She's fed after us and the cats, is respectful of the cats, quiet around the children, and obedient.
Someone knocks at the door, she growls and gets 'angry' until I approach the door then she starts to bark with a high waggy tail. I say 'bed' and she goes into her crate, head down, tail low. She sits and yaps for a while, then settles into an excited jumping up and whining. Someone comes past the house making noise, and doesn't come to the door (ie she doesn't feel i'm alerted to them being there) it's tail half cocked (not wagging), hackles up, growling, barking and racing round REALLY unsettled. So I do feel it's purely when I'm ignoring a possible situation where she feels there may be danger. Postman - I ignore and she goes ballistic.


I'd do whatever it took to ensure she never hurt anyone. I mean, if there was a trainer who could help me make sure she got over this and I could trust her, that'd be fabulous, but I suspect that I'll now always have that doubt re strangers and may end up muzzling her (which i really didnt want :() just for peace of mind.
 
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Well I have no idea what breed your dog is but assume it's not on the DDR. For your and your dogs sake muzzel it because of the threat that's there. Think of it like this IF your dog does bite someone they are within their rights to ask for it to be put down. (Is it worth it)??
 
itsme123 said:
Someone knocks at the door, she growls and gets 'angry' until I approach the door then she starts to bark with a high waggy tail. I say 'bed' and she goes into her crate, head down, tail low. She sits and yaps for a while, then settles into an excited jumping up and whining. Someone comes past the house making noise, and doesn't come to the door (ie she doesn't feel i'm alerted to them being there) it's tail half cocked (not wagging), hackles up, growling, barking and racing round REALLY unsettled. So I do feel it's purely when I'm ignoring a possible situation where she feels there may be danger. Postman - I ignore and she goes ballistic.

I'd do whatever it took to ensure she never hurt anyone. I mean, if there was a trainer who could help me make sure she got over this and I could trust her, that'd be fabulous, but I suspect that I'll now always have that doubt re strangers and may end up muzzling her (which i really didnt want :() just for peace of mind.
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OK, so you know her reactions, never ignore.
The postman is a common one, every day the same man comes in the same van and comes right up to the door and the dog makes a fuss and the man goes away again - to the dog, that is a massive result and when he comes back again the next day - OUTRAGE! and the behaviour perpetuates.

When someone comes to the door/walks past and you see and know that they are not a threat, then let her know. Oh, who is that? Oh, it's ok, it's Joe Soap/Sally Bubbles, I've got it under control, everyone calm down.
If you have to do this every time someone comes past, then do it.

Mine make a racket when a car comes in or someone strange comes over to them, but if I like them or I know them then they are introduced calmly and confidently in a comfortable space (out in the yard on a lead) and everything is fine.
If it's someone I don't like or the clampet last night who I asked twice, politely, to stay away from the dogs as it was late and they were sleepy, but still went over and got in their space, then I let them bark. That'll teach him.

You say in your last par that you don't trust her. You're losing the battle already if she realises this. If you see what I mean?

I'm off to bed now!!!
 
thanks CC, that makes total sense. I need to stop pre emting that she might defend and also stop ignoring her 'warnings' without making her feel there's something to be wary of.

Well, I phoned the fella bright and early (children away) and got him to come walk her with me. He took the lead, and she jumped up at me, yapping, put my hand out "No". I wanted him to walk her next to me so she could understand that even though she's on a lead it doesn't mean I'm vunerable. She wasn't happy, walked with her head low, whites of eyes showing, glancing up at me. I walked behind, she dragged behind, I walked ahead, she dragged ahead. Fella got her to pay attention to him and try and ignore me. It took us three rounds of the footpath, but she did it. He suggested asking one of the other walkers to approach her (pre warning them of course) whilst he held her on the lead and I stood close by. I daren't! Not until she's muzzled. But it's something we might do in time when she's muzzled and relaxed more. He's got a staffie dog so is quite confident and used to this "I'm the boss" stuff.
I'm soft with her, I know I am.... and my attitude needs to change. She's scared of cows so through the field I picked her up and he turned and said "Him up there gave her four legs to walk on... put her down...." :o
That told me! :o

Thankyou again, I'm going to buy a muzzle (went to get one today but they didn't have any in) and try with working from home on the people approaching the house thing and slowly move it outside. I've only a little while until my trainer returns from holiday so will then ask her for a recommendation of someone experienced in this.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't pick up a fearful dog, you will reinforce the fear.

I read through some posts from a while ago last night and I seem to be repeating myself (shock horror, me, repeat myself?! :p :D) from this time last year, without being rude. Different dog and different situation I know, but you need to drop the worry and the panic and the drama and the confusion, if you're writing like that, then that's what the atmosphere will be like at home and it's not conducive to having a happy, secure dog and I say that with the best will in the world as I have a melodramatic mother and a little female who sucks it up like a sponge.

You need to be confident and you need to be consistent. Just because the behaviour has stopped for one day, doesn't mean it's finished and you're done, it's a long term thing and you need to stick at it.
Great that the man is helping you, but you need to take control. It's not so much 'being the boss' with a little girl like her, but as much as 'being calm and confident and not worried'.
 
To add to what CC says - I think you almost need a similar attitude to when a horse spooks - that, firm 'ok, that's done, now we're moving on'. As you will know, if you give into panic on a spooky horse, the horse will only spook more so you have to be the calm, confident leader and transmit that confidence through your voice and body language.

Just the same, really:) If a horse was worried by cows you couldn't pick it up:D, you have to get them to walk past it themselves on their own four feet;)
 
We had a similar problem with our JRT. It really irritates me that people assume they can manhandle a strange dog without permission which htey would never do if it were a big "scary" breed grrr

We worked out that for Susie it was a fight / flight thing - off lead she could get away if necessary and therefore felt safe and in control but on lead she felt trapped and tried to get in there first :rolleyes: Thankfully her problem was easily solved by telling her to lie down if someone approached, then stepping in between them and her thus putting me in the position of protector. I then told the person that she has a sore back or something and petting her could be painful for her (i found this resulted in a better reaction that saying she may bite) Basically this solved the problem but I no longer take her to shows or places where I have to stop every 5 seconds for the above procedure because it is a pain in the a*** for both of us!
 
itsme123 said:
Yes, that was the other thing i wanted to ask, what sort should I get? And how to introduce it? Is there a certain make that's best?
And out of interest why do alot of greyhounds wear them? Is it because they wear them in training and so are used to them (I'm sorry if that comes across as a daft Q, I've just never asked why).
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CaveCanem said:
A basket muzzle would be best IMO, it's open. Racing greyhounds wear them because they are very prey-driven (IE they are bred and trained to chase the hare) and if a cat, bunny, small furry dog etc pops up...)
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Greyhounds still racing have to be muzzled in public to meet racing rules and are also used while running together to avoid injury (a nip + thin skin = vet bill & time off), but once retired then it really depends on the dog/owner. As most greys also grow up only seeing other greyhounds, so a few may not accept other breeds or just the small ones as dogs, so people choose to muzzle as its very difficult to avoid other dogs approaching and there are other reasons too which are more common to all dogs but as greyhounds already accept muzzles then i think their owners are just more likely to use them than others.

I just muzzled for the first month while i socialised my dogs so i could safely judge their reactions to things, as it was they had no problem with other dogs so i don't tend to bother on walks.

Not sure on best way to introduce as i didn't need to, but this advice seems like a sensible approach.
 
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