Do I need to give livery notice if my horse was PTS

Hi all

Just wanted to say thank you for all your replies. It is nice to know what people think in this situation, and 6 pages of replies was highly unexpected. I can only assume that you guys know how I am feeling right now about losing my best buddy. Just to clarify I pay my livery monthly in advance so my YO has requested a months 'notice' despite there being no contract. I have not been in this situation before and upon leaving a yard in the past I have given a months notice.
In fairness, I did bring up the topic because my rent would be due soon and I did not wish to just cease payment under assumption that all would be ok.
However, I genuinely did not expect a response telling me that I needed to pay a month and that most people keep paying because they will get another horse in as a replacement (I had advised I would not be replacing my much loved pet). I have done many favours for the YO without expecting anything in return, so I guess I was being played in order to help around the yard as the kindness was definitely not two way.
I have now cleared the stable and tack room and will put it behind me as a reminder that some people are only nice when they are getting something from you.
Personally, I have always been one of those people who tries to help everybody and gives things to people even when they say no. I honestly expected some compassion from the YO but would have then offered either a gift or payment etc to thank her for helping my horse have such a great time since she has been there. (Of course now I don't wish to give a penny).

The YO did say that she was counting on the money (despite saying recently that she did not fill her stables as she does not need the money).

Once again, thank you for all your responses (it has made me feel a lot better). I just wish that I had found this forum prior to trying to research this situation as the information on here would have helped me with so many other horsey questions.
 
Very best wishes to you. Time is a great healer, and maybe in the future, you may feel you are ready to give a wonderful home to another lucky horse that may find it's way into your care. Kindest Regards.
 
I've been following the updates, and believe me, so many of us have suffered the loss of a horse or pony. I have, and I only remember the sincere kindness of people I didn't know at all, who helped out when i was in total shock, and one particular guy who did not charge a penny for what he did. So your post really meant something to me.

Please accept *hugs*, and may your horse be running free at Rainbow Bridge, healthy and happy, and looking out for you. x

ps, take it from me, being "helpful and nice" can really backfire, I am working on toughening up around the horsey world.
 
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to be totally honest while it's very sad about your horse, your YO is now left without your livery money suddenly and that's not their fault. A peace offering could be to offer to pay for it until a new livery is found or the month is up (assuming you paid monthly). Livery is a business not a charitable service. If a YO can afford to be generous that's fine but many can;t.
 
^^^ I disagree. If YO depended so heavily on the money,she should have ensured everyone signed a contract with a notice period,especially seeing as previous liveries had left without paying any notice period (so she'd already been burned in that regard.) Also,she has empty stables and stated she didn't need to fill them-she will now perhaps need to. OP should not give her the money temporarily until the stable is filled-OP's version is that YO has taken advantage of her before,so probably would again.

My condolences to you OP,on your loss. Re:the YO's monetary loss,in the absence of a contract to help avoid being in this situation (again) she needs to suck it up on this occasion,especially given the sensitive nature of the situation.

Contracts can always include a ' in the event of accident/illness/injury/horse being unexpectedly euthanised,the notice will be waived/reduced/still in effect' clause.... YO trying it on here,taking advantage (quite shamelessly/heartlessly,in the circs) of the OP's claimed good nature.:(
 
SusieT said:
to be totally honest while it's very sad about your horse, your YO is now left without your livery money suddenly and that's not their fault. A peace offering could be to offer to pay for it until a new livery is found or the month is up (assuming you paid monthly). Livery is a business not a charitable service. If a YO can afford to be generous that's fine but many can;t.
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As you point out, the YO is running a business so why on earth hasn't she provided all liveries with a contract?
 
SusieT said:
to be totally honest while it's very sad about your horse, your YO is now left without your livery money suddenly and that's not their fault. A peace offering could be to offer to pay for it until a new livery is found or the month is up (assuming you paid monthly). Livery is a business not a charitable service. If a YO can afford to be generous that's fine but many can;t.
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Then she ought to have contracts in place .
I just dont understand how a YO can expect to be paid when shes not got a written contract in place.
 
Im so sorry for your loss, smellycat.

I went through this a year ago when I unexpectly lost my gelding from colic, I have to say that if my yard owner had done this i would have been really upset. Is there really a need to do this to someone when they have just lost a horse? Completely unacceptable in my opinion, and as there was no contract she would not get a penny from me.
 
You do have a contract. It is implied by the regularity of the payments.

And yes, you still need to give a months notice.
 
Nettle123 said:
But if there is no legally binding contract signed by both parties contract where would it say that a months notice is required ? " scratches head".
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There are a number of ways to enter in to a contract, it doesn't have to be a signed piece of paper.

This has been discussed numerous times on this forum - and information is more widely available on the web.

Regardless of all this, why anyone would think payment just stops because the horse is no longer there and with no notice period is beyond me.

And yes, I've been in the OP's situation before anyone asks, and it never occurred to me that a notice period wouldn't apply.
 
I was in this position some years back and my YO actually gave me my livery back (without me speaking to her I hasten to add) as I paid in advance and had only paid her a few days before the accident happened, so whilst I understand that technically you owe her the months notice as you have been paying her and therefore have signed some sort of passive agreement, I would think that the passive agreement only covered paying for a space you used as without it being in writing how could it cover specific terms such as a notice period and as the YO is clearly an arse who doesn't run her business properly with contracts in the first place I wouldn't worry 1 bit about leaving without paying another penny.
You have my deepest sympathies for your loss, I know it is a truly awful thing to go through and hope that you have supportive people around you who understand the loss of a loved one. xx
 
What others are saying in this post "you have no contract", sorry this is rubbish. You have a contract, albeit a verbal once, which is every bit as legally binding as a written one. The contract is that the YO supplies somewhere for you to keep a horse, and you pay her for it, and whatever else comes with it, hay/feed etc.

However it is a bit mean YO saying pay me a month's livery as notice period.
 
Sorry OP, I meant to say, I am so very sorry for your circumstances, been there, got the t shirt sadly.

Personally, and I know we will all have different opinions on this, but I would not be paying either. Either you run your yard in a professional manner with clear cut contracts or you run the risk of this situation arising. Presumably the YO could have asked you to leave at any time with out notice so it cuts both ways.
 
SusieT said:
to be totally honest while it's very sad about your horse, your YO is now left without your livery money suddenly and that's not their fault. A peace offering could be to offer to pay for it until a new livery is found or the month is up (assuming you paid monthly). Livery is a business not a charitable service. If a YO can afford to be generous that's fine but many can;t.
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Mmmm, can see what is being said here, but as a YO if (god forbid) a livery's horse had to be PTS and she'd only just paid her monthly £££ which she pays in advance, then I would see no other course of action but to return the full amount to her.

No we don't offer livery as a charity:) and have to make ends meet and pay the bills - BUT I would still hand the money back. I just couldn't keep it if something sad like this happened. I might add that we're only a very small DIY concern here and don't have the huge overheads that a lot of bigger yards would.

To me, all the horses in the yard are part of our extended family, and to lose one would be like losing family TBH. So money not an issue. But appreciate all yards can't operate with the soft hearts that we do.
 
smellycat said:
Phew, at least I am not the only person who felt this way. (And no, not West Sussex).
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Same here, really disgusted for you. My own horse was also PTS in July and my yard was brilliant. Hold a stable for me while i was looking for a new boy and didnt even make me pay for my last week there.

Here is what i would do: grab all my stuff and walk out. You dont have a contract! Pay for what you owe (aka when you horse was there) and nothing more. What would you be paying for?

Really sorry for you loss. I am 3 weeks in after losing my amazing boy and while it isnt any easier yet, i am lucky enough to have found another horse. The bond isnt there yet but am hoping it will help.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Mmmm, can see what is being said here, but as a YO if (god forbid) a livery's horse had to be PTS and she'd only just paid her monthly £££ which she pays in advance, then I would see no other course of action but to return the full amount to her.

No we don't offer livery as a charity:) and have to make ends meet and pay the bills - BUT I would still hand the money back. I just couldn't keep it if something sad like this happened. I might add that we're only a very small DIY concern here and don't have the huge overheads that a lot of bigger yards would.

To me, all the horses in the yard are part of our extended family, and to lose one would be like losing family TBH. So money not an issue. But appreciate all yards can't operate with the soft hearts that we do.
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You sound like my old YO, she was gutted when we lost B, she even got him to the vets when he was ill. I ended up giving her all my rugs, feed, and other horsey bits and bought her a decent bottle of wine and a card to say thank you.

I wouldnt hesistate to recommend her to anyone looking for a livery yard, however if she demanded a months money from me after the death of a horse I would feel differently about recommending her business to anyone. So its swings and roundabouts really.
 
There are two issues here.

1) Can the yo ask for a months notice legally? Yes they can unless you have a contract that specifies special arrangements for pts and as Amymay says this has been discussed again and again and verbal contracts apply if there is no written one.

2) Is in reasonable to apply the rules in this case or should you waive the usual notice?
Actually I can see both points of view. It is really harsh to be asked for money when you are devastated and coming to terms with a loss like that. On the other hand some livery yards are operating on very low margins and would struggle.

Question to those who are yard owners, assuming livery pays monthly on the 1st, if something happened on the 2nd of the month, would you reimburse that month's livery. If so then that puts the yard owner in a very different position if the same thing happens on the 28th month. If you would keep the money,then in scenario 1 you have your payment for the month, in scenario 2 you have 3 days to fill the stable.

I am fortunate never to have had to tie up loose ends when a person dies but what happens in that scenario? Presumably you have to go round and stop telephone, energy suppliers and other utilities. Do they waive notice if you cancelling the service because of a death or do they take it from the end of that billing period.
 
The law on this is quite clear. The contract has been frustrated by the death of the horse (the loss or destruction of the subject matter). Therefore, nothing is owed on either side because the contract ceases to exist without the subject matter, and no liability is owed by either party.

This is a very basic tenet of contract law. It doesn't matter whether you have a written contract or a contract implied by actings (as in your case). Only in the case of a complex commercial contract would provision for the contract to continue following death or destruction of the subject matter be upheld in court. The loss falls where it is due - you only owe payment for livery up until the point the horse was alive and still receiving it.

cf Taylor v Caldwell (1863) 3 B & S 826

Sorry for your loss.
 
The last answer sounds pretty sensible to me!
There is a lot to be said for paying up though and crying into your hankie about the nasty yo who made you pay livery notice for a dead horse (around as many horsey people as possible)
Can t imagine how desperate for money someone has to be to treat another person like they have treat you.
 
Mithras said:
The law on this is quite clear. The contract has been frustrated by the death of the horse (the loss or destruction of the subject matter). Therefore, nothing is owed on either side because the contract ceases to exist without the subject matter, and no liability is owed by either party.
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The subject matter though, surely is the person, not the horse?
 
amymay said:
The subject matter though, surely is the person, not the horse?
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Not at all. The subject matter of the livery contract is the horse. The livery service is provided by the livery yard and the horse is owned by the owner. It is not a contract delectus personae - based on the identity of the parties to the contract, like an employment contract.

Contracts generally require to have at least two parties to them. If they were taken to be the subject matter of the contract in all cases, frustration of contract would be impossible. The subject matter of the contract is the objective of the contract, not the parties to it, unless it is a contract delectus personae.

Other causes of frustration of contract are impossibility and illegality.
 
Thank you for further responses.

I appreciate that "a verbal contract" has been made but I would have no accurate comprehension as to what that entails.
I would most definitely honour a verbal contract where I am using the yards services (eg the horse is there).
However, how can there be "1 months notice" if this was never agreed, verbally or otherwise?
Would those suggesting that I should pay feel the same if she had requested 3 months notice? Or is 1 months notice the term which you have plucked out of the air for a legally binding verbal agreement for livery? Clearly, there is no such thing.

I have already paid for the time that I was there (plus a few days) so my conscience is now clear thanks to the majority who have come to the same conclusion. Had everybody disagreed and been able to explain my lack of understanding then I would have paid up.
 
Mithras said:
Not at all. The subject matter of the livery contract is the horse. The livery service is provided by the livery yard and the horse is owned by the owner. It is not a contract delectus personae - based on the identity of the parties to the contract, like an employment contract.

Contracts generally require to have at least two parties to them. If they were taken to be the subject matter of the contract in all cases, frustration of contract would be impossible. The subject matter of the contract is the objective of the contract, not the parties to it, unless it is a contract delectus personae.

Other causes of frustration of contract are impossibility and illegality.
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Interesting. Thanks Mithras.
 
smellycat said:
However, how can there be "1 months notice" if this was never agreed, verbally or otherwise?
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It was agreed by the frequency of the payments made.

However, as Mithras above has made a case for the contract being voided due to the subject matter being destroyed - I guess no you don't have to pay a penny.

(Mithras is a solicitor).
 
smellycat said:
However, how can there be "1 months notice" if this was never agreed, verbally or otherwise?
Would those suggesting that I should pay feel the same if she had requested 3 months notice? Or is 1 months notice the term which you have plucked out of the air for a legally binding verbal agreement for livery? Clearly, there is no such thing.
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The frequency of your payments is taken as a rule of thumb so if you pay monthly a month, weekly a week etc

However as Mithras has clarified, this does not apply in the case of death so not relevant in this case.
 
Mithras

So in the example where a horse is pts on the 2nd of the month and livery has been paid up to the end of the month, should the YO reimburse?

Would the same apply with people so if I died and I've paid my mobile rental for the coming month, should O2 reimburse my estate?
 
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