Do I put him down or attempt loaning???

ester said:
that was to wagtail sorry I should have quoted! re the 50% over 8 having spavin.
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Ohh I see. I've read many have spavins and we don't notice and the spavin does not cause lameness. Not sure on a percentage though.
Then again I have lost luck on them too as I have read
60%
65%
70%
75%
AND
80%
of the operation being a success :S

On a happier note, I am going to quiz my vet on Ethyl Alcohol injections into the hock... Just had a look into this, he did not offer it as a treatment. But it seems successful, promotes fusion AND does not cause the stress elsewhere like the operation has been suggested to.
 
:eek: :eek: :eek: Oh dear, all I would say is what ever you do don't put him out on loan, you may find someone out there who would be only to willing to take him and be offering the most fantastic home, then only to find out later that the person wasn't quite what they made out to be, and your poor horse had been sent to a market somewhere, travelled for many miles and ended up for slaughter it dose happen, so just imagine how you would feel then !
 
Do you know reading the endless posts where the OP cannot (not stating this is the case here at all btw) afford to keep a 'retired' horse and everyone is so rightly wary of loaning as a light hack or companion, wouldn't it be good if there was a recognised freeze brand like "NR' for NO RIDING to show the world the horse CANNOT be ridden or 'LH' for LIGHT HACK ONLY. The 'LOU' one is all very well, but many loss of use horses can be ridden so it reveals very little and is there for the insurers rather than potential owners. Infact my horse 'L' has not grown through white - there are only about 30 white hairs in total.

Do you know with todays technology even a microchip could hold key information about a horse as to exactly what the history is with it. It never ceases to amaze me that we have never really moved on from the basic freezemarking of the 1980s.
So just a pondering.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Do you know reading the endless posts where the OP cannot (not stating this is the case here at all btw) afford to keep a 'retired' horse and everyone is so rightly wary of loaning as a light hack or companion, wouldn't it be good if there was a recognised freeze brand like "NR' for NO RIDING to show the world the horse CANNOT be ridden or 'LH' for LIGHT HACK ONLY. The 'LOU' one is all very well, but many loss of use horses can be ridden so it reveals very little and is there for the insurers rather than potential owners. Infact my horse 'L' has not grown through white - there are only about 30 white hairs in total.

Do you know with todays technology even a microchip could hold key information about a horse as to exactly what the history is with it. It never ceases to amaze me that we have never really moved on from the basic freezemarking of the 1980s.
So just a pondering.
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I guess there must be a reason ? Seems like too much common sense!!
 
It's one of my big bugbears that we introduce supposed 'rules' like Passports and they get flaunted at sales, abbatoirs etc etc. Same with freeze marking - there have been several cases of freezemarked horses being pts with no question raised at the abbatoir. Why? Same reason as there are so many unscupulous dealers and sellers of horses MONEY.
If I could dictate I would enforce microchipping of every horse and dog and make the registered owner liable regardless

Same goes for the sales of metals - why does the Government not actually come down on the scrap merchants like a tonne of bricks for buying clearly stolen stuff? If fines ran into £000s it would soon make people act.
 
Someone I knew bought an eventer that had developed ring bone an she had ten seasons out hunting with him on a little Bute. I wouldn't write him off yet
 
If you know of someone who could take him as a companion or light hack and they are trust worthy and reliable then I would try this route. On the other hand there are much worse fates than death for a horse.
 
ester said:
WT 50% :eek: I'm curious as to where that figure came from, just from an interest point of view.

OP, I think first and foremost you need to discuss treatment outcomes with your vet.
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I can't remember where I read it. It was a couple of years ago when I was researching my gelding's bone spavin. It was certainly backed up by my vet who said that most horses over the age of eight will show some bony changes in the hocks, and in fact, out of the seven horses currently at my yard, four have bone spavin. Only two have been treated. Three of them are in full athletic work, and the fourth is my boy who has no problem with his hocks (they've been medicated 8 months ago) but of course, he has his back problem which is so far unresloved.
 
OP, please think about this, as it is not the time to be rational! I am in the exact same position with my mare. I have been trying to find research, as my mare’s arthritic changes (bone spavin/osteoarthritis) is also caused by a bone cyst… But it is a risk I am willing to take with regards to treatment.
I have also read the same with regards to ethyl alcohol injections and also waiting to decide on what treatment to take.

I have a 6yo ex racer, she is good to hack, but I would not loan her to Joe Bloggs. The only thing I have thought about doing is finding a sharer to help me ride her over winter, as riding in lightwork is important when the horse is suffering from osteoarthritis and it is hard for me when I am at uni.

I have not owned my mare for long, I was hoping to be jumping round 3'3, elementary plus dressage and hunting... I am studying equine science and obviously taking riding so seriously, she was my competition horse.

She has a heart of gold, I am against breeding when a horse goes wrong but as hers is thought by the vet to be racing induced and she has conformation and ability to die for... She would throw some cracking foals I am sure. I would love one to keep when the treatments fail and I do retire her... But she has bad vaginal conformation meaning she would be prone to infection; so this is another setback.

I am so glad I put her sighs and 'oh do I have to mum???' attitude with hills and schooling as being unfit and never pushed her or told her off for it because after her going lame only a week ago, it's clear she was in discomfort and pain. She has got me through my exams having her to ride and work with; I owe her a lot regardless of the fact I have to knock my competition dreams on the head.

Try to find treatment and a way to fuse the bones, tell the vet you want the fusion to take place as this can be better in the long run.

I know we often buy horses for a job and even if we have the money, they are too costly to be in and out of the vet with lameness and paying out for failed attempts to get the horse sound. But I think even if you are buying a horse to go to the top... You should be prepared to give them an easy life if things go wrong and if they are happy and healthy, put their needs before yours.

Do not mean to cause offence but I have also been in tears over my mare and I have even discussed with my mum the fairness of filling her with drugs to keep her sound and had a little think into when the time might come to put her down... But you have not tried anything yet, I do not think this is the point to give up.
 
If the horse is insured, you've effectively paid for treatment of some description - I would feel I'd wasted my money on the insurance if I didn't at least use it to see whether injections might help. Of course, it does depend on the level of cover you've bought.

I would say that, if surgery is a real option and your vet's practice is not a referral centre and the horse will have to go elsewhere for surgery, I would get your insurer's (and your vet's, obviously!) approval to have the horse referred for an opinion from an orthopaedic specialist - attending vets can use up lots of vet fee cover 'tinkering' and, by the time the horse finally gets referred to a surgical centre, there's no money left in the insurance pot.

If your vet is a referral practice, please ignore all the above!!
 
Since he is so young, I'd honestly try turning away/turnout for a year to eighteen months. If he still seems to have no job to do, reconsider pts then. Turnout doesn't cost much if you find the right place and make the decision not to expend much money on him if pts is the only other viable option. Sometimes turnout for a long period results in some remarkable cures.
 
applecart14 has recently had hers fused with ethanol, poss worth speaking to?
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=530358&highlight=ethanol+fusion

I do think that with the tildren, delaying fusion is probably a good option for an older horse when you accept that you are going to need to retire them at some point in the not so distant future anyway. For a younger horse I'm not so sure as you know it is still going to happen at some point and it might be just when they are getting started sort of thing.
 
Kallibear said:
A 5yr old ISH is unlikely to make a good happy hacker: the type of person who wants that kind of horse is usually a nervous novice wanting a confidence giver. I'm guessing he's not that horse?

If he is pain free as a happy hacker and would be happy doing so, I'd investigate that route first but it would need to be a perfect home: someone I knew, close by and on LOAN only, not 'free to a good home'. That way you have control of his future.

If not I'd have him PTS. He is only going to become more lame and painful and if you cannot keep him as a field ornament, its wrong to pass his issue onto someone else, and will do him no favours.
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Agree with this basically. An awful decision to make, BUT there are worse things, far worse things, than can happen to a horse than being humanely PTS in familiar surroundings by someone who is compassionate enough to care.
 
Sorry to hear this, I have the same problem so I know exactly how you feel, the decisions to make and of course the upset an disappointment you will be going through.

My horse has had steroid injections as well as a course of Catrophen with light exercise (hacking only, no canter work unless checking for changes in his going) to help the fusing and keep him mobile, I’ve been able to do this through the insurance thank fully, it’s cost a fortune so far (thank god I was insured) although I wouldn’t touch SEIB again with a bargepole (yes I am feeling bitter….long story!) but we are still investigating things further.

Anyway back to the point, he’s certainly not a horse I’d ever consider to put out on loan, nor would anyone want him as a companion horse I can tell you that unless someone just wanted a big expensive pet, so he either stays with me and carries on as hacking horse/retires with me or he is put down, the thought of having him put down does not in any way shape of form upset me in the slightest, not because I’m a hard faced cow, it’s because I know it’s the best thing to do, I know that he’s had a good life and I’d want to keep it that way and end it that way. If anything happens to me then I have given my blessing to my friend to have him put down if she could no longer care for him for what ever reasons.

Meanwhile I’m stuck, I can’t afford to buy another (well keep a 3rd horse on livery) also I suppose time comes into it as well, even though my horse can’t for fill my dreams (all things I’d planned and looked forward to doing) I still owe him my quality time, so even if it could afford to buy and keep another horse on livery, I wouldn’t have the time to spend with him as he’s not a horse you can just leave in the field without any social interaction spent on him if he wasn’t being ridden etc, as I also have the mare to keep me busy too.

End of the day, you have to do right by the horse as well as doing what you want in life too, live your ambitions.

I’ll never have the money or expertise to go to a high level in competing, I won’t even kid myself into thinking that but the thing is, it doesn’t bother me so much either, however I do think those that have high ambitions and a drive to do well with a horse (if they are only limited to one or two horses for example) they should chase their dreams and make the most of what life has to offer you, the skills and experience you have, if this means putting a horse down for it’s own good because it’s holding you back from being able purchase and compete another good horse then so be it, don’t ever feel guilty, I’d rather do that than palm the useless horse off onto someone.
 
Its a tough one for sure and its always a difficult decision to make. I would suggest avoiding loaning if you can but that is only because I have heard some really bad stories about horses going out on loan, people being told the problems and then the horse being "used" incorrectly but I am sure most loans work out fine so shouldn't rule it out.
Perhaps if you took your time and vetted loads of prospects for loan then you might find the perfect home for him.

I would suggest that you stop reading so much on the internet about treatments and just talk to your vet.
The internet is both the best and the worst source of information about these sorts of things because there is no vetting of the information so you could be reading some "factual" article that is complete rubbish. Even scientific studies that show success or failure rates have their drawbacks. One of my horses shattered a bone in his leg last year and a read all sorts about supplements and things you can do to help and the vet just said "...if it worked, we would be using it" which sort of put me in my place!!

You said you had a million questions to ask your vet - before you make any decision at all you need to ask every single one, and if you can't get them to answer then it seems silly to say but get a different vet.
There is never anything wrong with a second opinion, particularly when the final outcome could be so final!

I know if it were one of my two boys then I would do everything I could to find a solution before I went down the PTS road and even then i would consider a retirement home if livery costs were too high and I could find a cheaper alternative in retirement.
 
amymay said:
Ah, no insurance then.

Shame, because certainly you have nothing to loose by giving him treatment, and seeing what the future holds.

However, if that's not the route you want to go down, have him shot.
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Ah judgemental as usual then Amy May ;)
Ive not seen the op state her horse isnt insured, just that she doesnt feel its going to be suitable to treat him
 
marydoll said:
Ah judgemental as usual then Amy May ;)
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Looks like it doesn't it?

Ive not seen the op state her horse isn't insured, just that she doesn't feel its going to be suitable to treat him
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OP has stated quite categorically that she does have insurance, but doesn't want to treat him.

As I've said before, I would defend anyone's right to have a horse put down, for any reason at all.
 
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ester said:
WT 50% :eek: I'm curious as to where that figure came from, just from an interest point of view.

OP, I think first and foremost you need to discuss treatment outcomes with your vet.
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Dunno about the statistics, but agree, you need to discuss your horse with your vet, i had a similar scenario with my gelding when he was 5, not wired to be a hacking horse, and even on danilon was sore when working on a gradient.
He has been a field ornament for the past 8 yrs, some days hes really good but only when on his danilon ..... Would i do it again, no id pts :(
 
lorry345 said:
Hi, he is insured but will be exempt as of next year. If he has the treatment though, my issue is I have heard the tildren and injections to not really last much longer than 6 months and he'd still have to find a new home as I purchased him to do a job and hacking/lightwork... well his just too expensive for me to justify keeping him when he is my only horse to event. Sound terrible don't I :s being selfish with what I want out of a horse and his no longer up to it so I'm either thinking putting him down or finding a loan home which could be very tricky.

I should really cut my losses, man up and accept it but even if I did withdraw from competing... I'm letting him tick over on drugs until the joints get too painful which worries me a little?
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I could have written this. I understand how difficult it is. I did try treatment though.

Horse diagnosed with bi-lateral spavins, had injections, shock wave, physio, flair saddle fitted, remedial farriery. 6months later felt no better, re-injected, not good, back x-rayed, kissing spine is diagnosed. :( injected that and hocks again, did a build up programme of lunge work, got back on after 8 weeks, ride bare back etc etc, still felt no better. Retired him in January, wasn't fair to keep on doing stuff that wasn't working. Also my only horse, ISH and is now 13, I had a couple of good seasons eventing him.

Sadly, he also won't make a hack, AT ALL, categorically cannot ever loan him to do hacking, he isn't safe. He used to be, when in work 6 days a week.

So he is in the field, but recently not looking very good at all on his legs, at 13 he can't stay there forever, we don't have enough turnout, and he is also no1 on 1 bute a day which isn't sustainable long term. Sadly, I have to make a similar decision to you soon. But if I was you'd i'd PTS...so much easier to say when its not your horse though.
 
I had this decision with my mare last year. She was diagnosed with bone spavin in October 2010 and we had three lots of steroid injections and two of Tildren and nothing worked. In March 2011 my vet suggested ethyl alcohol (I think that's the right spelling!). I'm not sure how it works but I think it kills the nerve endings so the horse goes sound and you then ride as much as possible in order to try and fuse the joint.

I was very sceptical about this working but within a month of having the injection Zara was sound. I had this done in June last year and she is now taking part in pleasure rides and hopefully will go back to doing endurance. The reason I haven't taken part in an endurance competition so far is because I have to have a vetting and I'm paranoid she's not going to be allowed to start. My vet has told me not to worry and that she's sound but I'm just being a wimp.

I now it doesn't work for everyone but it's worth a try, Zara was 4/10th's lame when she was treated and now is sound even on a circle!
 
My mare was diagnosed with bone spavin at 11years old. We had the aggressive treatments done,medicated both hocks had Adequan injections, and on a strong joint supplement, she went on to have another 6 years of useful working life before she developed a sacroiliac problem and possible KS so she is now retired (she is happy pottering around with a friend at 17 years of age)

If I had your horse and was insured I would be prepared to try, chuck the insurance money at it and see where you are in a year - if it doesn't work- yes by all means PTS. But I have seen some huge improvements after Tildren/ or surgery to fuse the spavins, so worth a chance.
 
Have you or your vet spoken to an orthopaedic specialist about surgical options for your horse? Subchondral bone cysts are best treated by being directly injected with steroid into the cyst. Often this is done during arthroscopy but may be difficult within the tmt joint depending on what bone is affected. The prognosis following surgery is still variable but it may give him a much better chance of a useful career. Definitely worth having the conversation at least.
 
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