Do local Councils have nothing better to do with their time!?

This is not going to be popular. Please guys think about things before you reply. It is blatantly obvious that any menage, or stabling is only consented under planning as private/ personal use for the owner/ occupier of the land/house. Otherwise it is commercial use which WILL attract Business Rates. Just imagine when all & sundry are using an arena/stable & the owner says "Oh it's Ok, that is my friend. I don't take any payment whatsoever. No way,
1. How do the authorities police it, Is every member of the general public going to tell the truth.
2. The potential to rent the facility is available at a lesser cost than an arena/ stable that is paying business rates, therefore not protecting the very people that are playing by the rules & paying into the economy.
3. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If others use the arena it will require more maintenance etc. Who in there right minds does this for free. Arenas cost a lot of money to install.
4. Especially on a commercial farm the VOA know for a fact that farmers are the worst for "diversifying" on the quiet. Yet they are exempt from any rates.
5. Horses are not classed as agricultural therefore have to be classed as purely private/ personal use or commercial & pay the rates they attract.
As a commercial rate payer of a yard I agree with what the council or planners are doing. The alternative is the legit business owners are going to get deeper in the mire. Staff jobs in the industry are lost. Hope this puts things in a different perspective.
I would put money on another yard reporting you & the authorities are just doing there job.
Told you this would not be popular!
 
FRESHMAN said:
This is not going to be popular. Please guys think about things before you reply. It is blatantly obvious that any menage, or stabling is only consented under planning as private/ personal use for the owner/ occupier of the land/house. Otherwise it is commercial use which WILL attract Business Rates. Just imagine when all & sundry are using an arena/stable & the owner says "Oh it's Ok, that is my friend. I don't take any payment whatsoever. No way,
1. How do the authorities police it, Is every member of the general public going to tell the truth.
2. The potential to rent the facility is available at a lesser cost than an arena/ stable that is paying business rates, therefore not protecting the very people that are playing by the rules & paying into the economy.
3. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If others use the arena it will require more maintenance etc. Who in there right minds does this for free. Arenas cost a lot of money to install.
4. Especially on a commercial farm the VOA know for a fact that farmers are the worst for "diversifying" on the quiet. Yet they are exempt from any rates.
5. Horses are not classed as agricultural therefore have to be classed as purely private/ personal use or commercial & pay the rates they attract.
As a commercial rate payer of a yard I agree with what the council or planners are doing. The alternative is the legit business owners are going to get deeper in the mire. Staff jobs in the industry are lost. Hope this puts things in a different perspective.
I would put money on another yard reporting you & the authorities are just doing there job.
Told you this would not be popular!
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I understand where you are coming from with this, but, by being draconion in the approach that only strictly personal use applies to a manege, ie no friends, it presupposes that everyone is lying, when they say that friends are using the facility for no payment, rather than the onus being on the Council having to prove someone is lying, and taking payment.

Where someone is running a commercial yard, obviously the matter is clear cut and business rates are payable.

Where a farmer has diversified into livery and a manege then obviously it is a business enterprise and business rates apply. Here again the matter is clear cut.

What I object to is the assumption by the council that people doing favours for friends is always for commercial rather than altruistic reasons.
 
AndySpooner said:
I understand where you are coming from with this, but, by being draconion in the approach that only strictly personal use applies to a manege, ie no friends, it presupposes that everyone is lying, when they say that friends are using the facility for no payment, rather than the onus being on the Council having to prove someone is lying, and taking payment.

Where someone is running a commercial yard, obviously the matter is clear cut and business rates are payable.

Where a farmer has diversified into livery and a manege then obviously it is a business enterprise and business rates apply. Here again the matter is clear cut.

What I object to is the assumption by the council that people doing favours for friends is always for commercial rather than altruistic reasons.
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sorry but that is how they work.. we are there to be milked to pay for there top heavy, wastefull, PC and global warming obsessed, snouts in the trough thiefdoms...
 
It is interesting to hear both perspectives, but I do not agree that the council could just either say private or commercial. My friend uses her friends menage, and thats a private one- with no problems!!
 
In my mind, if it is your private land and you have had permission to build arenas or stables etc on your land then you should be able to do what you bloody well like with it!!! You should surely only have to pay business rates if you are making a certain amount of declarable income from the hire/ letting of your school to a 3rd party?

There was the case a hile back when the council tried to charge a lady business rates for her arena on her own land. I believe she ended up not paying and the comparison was made between the arena and someone having a swimming pool or tennis court in their garden. You don't have to pay business rates if friends/family come over and use your pool or tennis court do you so why should you have to pay for people using your arena?? It's essentially the same - your land, your property NOT a business.
 
ladyt25 said:
In my mind, if it is your private land and you have had permission to build arenas or stables etc on your land then you should be able to do what you bloody well like with it!!! You should surely only have to pay business rates if you are making a certain amount of declarable income from the hire/ letting of your school to a 3rd party?

There was the case a hile back when the council tried to charge a lady business rates for her arena on her own land. I believe she ended up not paying and the comparison was made between the arena and someone having a swimming pool or tennis court in their garden. You don't have to pay business rates if friends/family come over and use your pool or tennis court do you so why should you have to pay for people using your arena?? It's essentially the same - your land, your property NOT a business.
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THIS IS EXACTLY how I look at it!!
I think what the real problem is people thinking people with horses, could afford another bit of tax on top. I dont know.

Took the horse out for 2 1/2 hours today on a nice hack, but I didnt feel I had achieved anything! I mean hacking is lovely, especailly around here, but I need to school! Stupid busybodies!
 
I can assure you I have been just as frustrated by the council's views for many a year. I have been on both sides of the fence, as a private yard owner with an Indoor as well as an outdoor. Now with a commercial yard. So I see both sides of the argument. My reply was simply to state that after many years of being on both sides of the fence I have at least come to understand the reasoning why the powers that be act as they do. It is their job. More often than not a member of the public has made a complaint, often that person is someone running a business. If the council do not investigate the matter they are in breach of not fulfilling their duty to the public who pay their wages. To do their duty they must have some rules to apply. When they use them they are accused of having nothing better to do. They can not win can they?
A good example that does not rouse such feelings (cos we take our beloved horse out of the equasion is) someone is signing on for unemployment benefit (or whatever it is called now) every time they sign on they declare they have been available to work in order to get the allowance. Someone reports them for helping out at let's say the stables (cos they love horses) they obviously tell the benefits office that it is unpaid work, they are simply helping out doing something they enjoy, maybe even adding it's better than staying in bed till dinner time. The unfortunate result is;but you was not available to work therefore unable to claim. All I am trying to say is after many years & becoming far more tolerant I understand the need for rules. Someone suggested it is up to the council to prove a person is lying! Sorry but for me I prefer my taxes to go on more rewarding services. They can not police the equestrian world & why in jells name should they have to.
 
FRESHMAN said:
I can assure you I have been just as frustrated by the council's views for many a year. I have been on both sides of the fence, as a private yard owner with an Indoor as well as an outdoor. Now with a commercial yard. So I see both sides of the argument. My reply was simply to state that after many years of being on both sides of the fence I have at least come to understand the reasoning why the powers that be act as they do. It is their job. More often than not a member of the public has made a complaint, often that person is someone running a business. If the council do not investigate the matter they are in breach of not fulfilling their duty to the public who pay their wages. To do their duty they must have some rules to apply. When they use them they are accused of having nothing better to do. They can not win can they?
A good example that does not rouse such feelings (cos we take our beloved horse out of the equasion is) someone is signing on for unemployment benefit (or whatever it is called now) every time they sign on they declare they have been available to work in order to get the allowance. Someone reports them for helping out at let's say the stables (cos they love horses) they obviously tell the benefits office that it is unpaid work, they are simply helping out doing something they enjoy, maybe even adding it's better than staying in bed till dinner time. The unfortunate result is;but you was not available to work therefore unable to claim. All I am trying to say is after many years & becoming far more tolerant I understand the need for rules. Someone suggested it is up to the council to prove a person is lying! Sorry but for me I prefer my taxes to go on more rewarding services. They can not police the equestrian world & why in jells name should they have to.
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I have to dis agree here, for most, horses are a hobby, to say that an unemployed person claiming benefit cannot help out at a stable as they are unavailable for work is nonsense. They could drop what they are doing at any time. If you are on benefit does that mean that you cannot have any hobby that takes you out of the house? Is house arrest then a condition of claiming benefit?

If the Council can impose its will on anyone without any sort of proof, this is worse than a Police State. Of course the Council should have to be in a position to justify their claims that people are running a business, if this is denied, then to say 'we think you are, end of story' is a massive abuse. If they tried that game with me I'd certainly fight them and how much tax payers money would they waste defending that?
 
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Hey Andy I don't make these rules.not even saying I agree with them. However I do see the need for some sort of across the board boundaries that each Council works within. Most people I Know that have private use facilities do actually take money albeit a lesser rate than a business. Some just have an odd bottle of tipple as a present & some have favours in return. Either way it does happen most of the time.
 
ladyt25 said:
In my mind, if it is your private land and you have had permission to build arenas or stables etc on your land then you should be able to do what you bloody well like with it!!! You should surely only have to pay business rates if you are making a certain amount of declarable income from the hire/ letting of your school to a 3rd party?

There was the case a hile back when the council tried to charge a lady business rates for her arena on her own land. I believe she ended up not paying and the comparison was made between the arena and someone having a swimming pool or tennis court in their garden. You don't have to pay business rates if friends/family come over and use your pool or tennis court do you so why should you have to pay for people using your arena?? It's essentially the same - your land, your property NOT a business.
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I have to pay non domestic rates (business rates) on my stables and arena (manege!) even though they are for private use only because they are not 'within the curtilage of my house'.
 
Those of you ho have said that the planners have to take action after a complaint are wrong .They do not .The planning regulations state that the planners do not have to take action if it is not in their interest. SO , what is their interest,easy revenue from the extortionate planning fees. Its all about money and saving their worthless jobs.
 
Mike007 said:
Those of you ho have said that the planners have to take action after a complaint are wrong .They do not .The planning regulations state that the planners do not have to take action if it is not in their interest. SO , what is their interest,easy revenue from the extortionate planning fees. Its all about money and saving their worthless jobs.
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Aww Mike....has someone upset you? ( I would put a smiley on, but I have no idea how to!)
 
Mike007 said:
Those of you ho have said that the planners have to take action after a complaint are wrong .They do not .The planning regulations state that the planners do not have to take action if it is not in their interest. SO , what is their interest,easy revenue from the extortionate planning fees. Its all about money and saving their worthless jobs.
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Not to mention the corruption in local councils, often the planning department... Blatant misuse of position and I have seen it too often.
 
Holly Hocks said:
Aww Mike....has someone upset you? ( I would put a smiley on, but I have no idea how to!)
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Back when it was worth somthing ,my local planning authority wasted half a million of local ratepayers money trying to use planning legislation as a weapon for entirely separate reasons against someone.( And got their backsides kicked in the process:D).
 
CazD said:
How would you know it would be for family and friends? The stables on my paddock have permission for "the applicant's own horses only .... and not for any commercial use". When we purchased the paddock I checked with the council who said we would have to apply to have the pp changed as we werent the original applicant and therefore the pp would not allow us to use the stables, even though we were the purchasers of the paddock. We decided to take a chance and not bother - and so far, no-one seems to have noticed.
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It gets sillier by the moment. So if someone buys a house that they didnt have built for themselves do they then have to re apply for PP as they werent the original applicants.

We have someone living not far away who has a large house and quite a number of acres of land though no horses. (he's very dodgy) He has wanted to pull the house down and re build for sometime but cant get planning but still goes ahead and does various alterations without pp. There are 10 enforcements against him and not one has been enforced as he is not the sort of person you would want to upset (unless you want your family terrorised or house burnt down). Even the big house builders like Wimpey and Taylor Woodrow wouldnt have 10 enforcements against them and they build all over the country.

They just leave him to do as he likes, its much easier to harrass innocent horsey people trying to make a safer place than the road to ride! After all they have got to prove their existence and pretend they earn their money not to mention all the fiddling that goes on.
 
ladyt25 said:
In my mind, if it is your private land and you have had permission to build arenas or stables etc on your land then you should be able to do what you bloody well like with it!!! You should surely only have to pay business rates if you are making a certain amount of declarable income from the hire/ letting of your school to a 3rd party?

There was the case a hile back when the council tried to charge a lady business rates for her arena on her own land. I believe she ended up not paying and the comparison was made between the arena and someone having a swimming pool or tennis court in their garden. You don't have to pay business rates if friends/family come over and use your pool or tennis court do you so why should you have to pay for people using your arena?? It's essentially the same - your land, your property NOT a business.
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Weel said and very true re swimming pools and tennis courts - whats the difference.
 
Mike007 said:
Back when it was worth somthing ,my local planning authority wasted half a million of local ratepayers money trying to use planning legislation as a weapon for entirely separate reasons against someone.( And got their backsides kicked in the process:D).
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Totally agree. If you look at my previous post on this thread, you'll see what I do for a living - for my local authority - I attempt to save taxpayers money, by identifying "errors" in people's housing benefit claims - something the government keeps saying it wants to clamp down on - yet my job may be at risk. I'm bloody good at my job - I save thousands of pounds of taxpayers money yet I could be the next one in the jobseekers queue. Yet I know of others who seem to get paid twice what I get for doing .....well actually I'm not sure what they do! Anyway, must crack on with updating my CV....someone must want me....
 
Its just a mess and local goverment needs a shake up the cuts are a small start towards geting back to basics and hopefuly them being made to realise they are there to serve the comunity, planing is another mess, people with brown enverlopes freemasons and big companys getting just what they want,, our town is a planing disgrace with houses approved on land boardering a industial estate and waste prossessing and other dirty industrys, because councilers did not want houses built on land ajoining their houses, small scale sensible developments that would improve our town refused and big ones that would have a negative impact are going through.. bigger and better council buildings but nothing for
simple mantanance or small scale public works , TWUNTS the lot of them ... CUT CUT and cut please anyone who hasnt got a shovel or other usefull machine or impliment in there hand.. And shoot on site anyone with a clip board :D
 
perfect11s said:
Its just a mess and local goverment needs a shake up the cuts are a small start towards geting back to basics and hopefuly them being made to realise they are there to serve the comunity, planing is another mess, people with brown enverlopes freemasons and big companys getting just what they want,, our town is a planing disgrace with houses approved on land boardering a industial estate and waste prossessing and other dirty industrys, because councilers did not want houses built on land ajoining their houses, small scale sensible developments that would improve our town refused and big ones that would have a negative impact are going through.. bigger and better council buildings but nothing for
simple mantanance or small scale public works , TWUNTS the lot of them ... CUT CUT and cut please anyone who hasnt got a shovel or other usefull machine or impliment in there hand.. And shoot on site anyone with a clip board :D
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Thanks (hides clipboard behind back) - A lot of tar brushes being bandied around here. As a lowly LA worker I work bliddy hard. The problem in LA is that you can never please all everyone, and often you are at the mercy of the nimbys, nosey parkers and down right deranged (complaints about church bellsw, seagulls and a snow man are some of the more bonkers ones I have had this year). In my dept our protcols dictate that we will condsider ALL complaints, even though most of them are quite frankly ridiculous.

Back the the OP, if your friend has pp for her arena they could not ask her to plough it up. It would be worth checking if it was personal/private usage or for the use of applicants horses only. If it is personal/private then there is nothing to worry about. TBH I would be amazed if your planning enforcement dept had the time to check up on something so trifling, I know at my Council we are all cut back to the bone, frozen posts, natural wastge etc and can barely deal with the big issues.
 
Holly Hocks- That is rediculous! Surely they cant do that? What has this country come to!?!!??

It's all seemed to quiten down a bit now..... But i know that this isnt the end of their investigations!

My parents have had problems with the local council before when they wanted planning to enable us to sell the house with plans for 5 cheap houses..... we live next to a primary school... and they had NO problem with it at all... and the only people that did was the people in the house opposite us who 3 months after our appeal got planning to completely reovate their house.... the noise and disruption was awful!! Yet the council didnt even listen to our objection to their work bring done... even if it was slightly in spite.

I hope that it works out soon, as I really need to crack on!
 
luckilotti said:
Needless to say i am having to change it but am also putting in an appeal based upon safety as if he got over, it would be a very nasty accident!
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Firstly, don't change it, not until you get an order from a court, which that can't do whilst you are appealing it.

Secondly, get the BHS on side and ask them to write you a letter saying that what the council is asking is ridiculous and unsafe for horses in this situation.... councils don't like to go against the BHS in the end (they'll fight at first, but will give in)
 
Its quite odd that they can't allow someone to ride in someone elses school. I know money isnt meant to change hands which I thought was the only issue? Is it an English rule as I thought you were allowed to ride in a school as long as you didnt pay them. Up here, I'm allowed to ride through any of the farmers fields - how is that different to riding in a fenced area with sand in it?! lol.
 
Same as why should you have to apply for pp as long as you put nateral surfaces down? eg woodchip or sand in towns they put in play areas skate board and bmx areas but us horsey folk have to fork out to build area then be ruled what we do with it money grabbing.
 
mon said:
Same as why should you have to apply for pp as long as you put nateral surfaces down? eg woodchip or sand in towns they put in play areas skate board and bmx areas but us horsey folk have to fork out to build area then be ruled what we do with it money grabbing.
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No I agree! Maybe digging a big hole int he ground and making a path down to it and using woodchip would work?
Hmmm HEALTH AND SAFETY! Oh god..... Good ole England!
 
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