Do ride and drive horses 'wear out' quicker?

[Gloi]

A foot landing elastic frog first must surely be less jarring than landing metal shoe first.

 

[Goldenstar]

It depends on how much and what sort of driving the horse has done .
Hock problems are common and both my high mileage R and D got manageable KS symptoms when older .
ringbone side bone and all the lower limb concussion issues are common in driving horses .
When you try the horse take careful notice of the canter driving horses often have difficulty cantering under saddle .

 

[Reacher]

I'll try and find it, but if he managed to get a pressure monitor between the shoe and the foot or inside a horses joint while it's trotting I'd be very surprised. It wouldn't be the first bit of science he's got wrong.

Is a basic law of physics that if you attach a weight to the end of a long stick it will hit the ground harder, it's why we use hammers and mallets.
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He says that “Roadwork subjects a horse’s hoof to forces 20 times greater than a good grass or arena surface.” and that barefoot reduces concussion but excessive trotting is still damaging and should be limited to 5 mins per day.
(That’s from an an article in Your Horse mag)
PS I think the original article on his website is behind a pay wall.

 

[ester]

Also not many shod horses have the supportive internal and cushioning structures at their optimum compared to those that are bare. It's a multifactorial thing for sure.

 

[Micky]

Mine was 9 when i bought him, front feet weren’t great, but a good farrier and diet helped, certainly wasnt bombproof with lorries and tractors but training helped with that, did everything, pleasure rides, xc, jumping, dressage and hacking, one of the most well mannered polite horses ive known, he was pts 3 months ago at the grand age of 23... go with your gut and vetting

 

[smolmaus]

I'll try and find it, but if he managed to get a pressure monitor between the shoe and the foot or inside a horses joint while it's trotting I'd be very surprised. It wouldn't be the first bit of science he's got wrong.

Is a basic law of physics that if you attach a weight to the end of a long stick it will hit the ground harder, it's why we use hammers and mallets.
.

Compared to the overall weight of a horse and rider the additional weight of the shoe is probably negligible. It's not quite a hammer-swing physics problem as the vertical load of the horse is always going to govern over the rotational momentum of the additional shoe weight.

The increased concussion is from how the force is dissipated once it hits the ground. The impact calculation I am most familiar with is the one I use for vehicular impact on walls but the physics is the same and the angle of impact and the deformation of the impacting object and the impacted surfaces has a much, much greater effect on the resultant force. The natural hoof will deform, a steel shoe will not. A tarmac road will deform more than concrete, a grass surface will deform a lot and a sand arena probably the most.

 

[rabatsa]

Comparing driving out with arena work is like chalk and cheese. Arenas are bad for joints too, just not concussive. I admit that I do a lot of trotting when driving but it is not all on roads, some is on forestry tracks and some on grass fields. Variety and altering paces is good for the horse.

I did a week long, long distance drive a few years ago. A ridden horse also came along. The ridden horse is the one that could not cope with the trotting even though it was using the verges and adding in cantering.

To me the driving was a lot kinder on the horse.

 

[katastrophykat]

Vet as usual, purchase as usual if the vetting clears and the pony suits.
I love that the riders think we all hammer out driving ponies on the roads, when Driving differs every bit as much as riding. This pony may have never stepped foot on the road in anything over walk, and it might have been hammered round the lanes from two onwards. It might have pulled lightweight sulkies on quick hitch harness or a flatbed with a dozen men to the pub- any and all jobs will have had an impact on him.

As we don’t have the history of this animal in particular, none of us can realistically qualify an opinion as to exactly how it might go- proceed in the usual manner and vet for the job that you want him to do. Best of luck!

 

[ycbm]

Compared to the overall weight of a horse and rider the additional weight of the shoe is probably negligible. It's not quite a hammer-swing physics problem as the vertical load of the horse is always going to govern over the rotational momentum of the additional shoe weight.

The increased concussion is from how the force is dissipated once it hits the ground. The impact calculation I am most familiar with is the one I use for vehicular impact on walls but the physics is the same and the angle of impact and the deformation of the impacting object and the impacted surfaces has a much, much greater effect on the resultant force. The natural hoof will deform, a steel shoe will not. A tarmac road will deform more than concrete, a grass surface will deform a lot and a sand arena probably the most.

I won't argue with you about how I think the physics is different when a long lever is involved, because I think we are in full agreement that it is not correct to say that shoes don't increase concussion on roads.

 

[smolmaus]

I won't argue with you about how I think the physics is different when a long lever is involved, because I think we are in full agreement that it is not correct to say that shoes don't increase concussion on roads.

Oh we are in agreement there. I do want to attempt the maths and have the argument but that is only because I am avoiding a bit of work I don't want to do ?

 

[scruffyponies]

We do lots of trotting on roads barefoot. The result is good sound feet, and strong legs. I firmly believe that it's circles on soft surfaces that lame horses - especially young ones. Don't get me started on lunging 2yo's in sand schools.

My first pony had a history of arthritis and really let his riders know it. He could buck for England. He was broken to drive at 13, when we regularly used to do 20 miles or more in trot. He was sold to a driving only home at 18 and worked regularly until 30. He retired sound.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Thanks for all of the great advice everyone. I feel like I've learnt a lot!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I found this on Facebook from 2016 from David Marlin.

View attachment 85427

The first sentence is correct but it omits the fact that if you shoe there is an additional pound of steel added to the mass of the leg, and leaves out the disproportionate effect of that at the end of a long lever.

Half way down he states that concussion is higher in a shod horse.

ty ycbm
Must be a bit like humans wearing trainers with cushion soles when they are jogging/running. Compared to a human running in hard sole shoes or tap shoes.

I see so many joggers round here and think (your knees will be buggered when your older) my sister used to jog now she cannot.

Back to the pony, we never really hammer her on the roads unless going up hill, we normally do a sensible jog when she drives.

 

[rara007]

This is fairly topical as I’ve just had my rising 14yo xrayed from head to toe as an MOT. All clean and no signs of OA even in the hocks or fetlocks despite a pretty full CV.
He doesn’t do roadwork beyond the odd km here and there but does do a fair bit of schooling on harder clay ground and is asked quite a lot of both schooling wise and fitness wise. He barely jumps but is schooling and competing at medium, limited by my riding.

 

[Dynamo]

I've had a lot of Welsh Cs and Ds and the cleanest limbed one I've ever had was one that had done a lot of driving as well as riding. He's still got flawless limbs years down the line. I think he was better off driving and being fit as a fiddle rather than being overweight and overloaded which so many are in the ridden and in-hand show ring. Don't be at all put off by it, OP. It all depends on the individual pony. Good luck and tell us if you buy.

 

[Reacher]

I won't argue with you about how I think the physics is different when a long lever is involved, because I think we are in full agreement that it is not correct to say that shoes don't increase concussion on roads.

What I take from Marlin’s articles (at least the ones that are free to access) is that if “roadwork subjects a horse’s hoof to forces 20 times greater than a good grass or arena surface” then the reduction in concussion due to being barefoot compared to being shod won’t cancel out that factor of 20. My BF horse is noticeably less springy on tarmac compared to grass - even compared to “rock hard” ground with grass on which he will jump/gallop happily.

OP sorry this debate is going off at a tangent. Like when buying any horse ideally you want to know how it has been ridden (driven) in its past - and it’s difficult to get those answers - so you rely on a good vet. If the horse is 13 and the vetting finds no issues then hopefully that is a good sign.

 

[ycbm]

What I take from Marlin’s articles (at least the ones that are free to access) is that if “roadwork subjects a horse’s hoof to forces 20 times greater than a good grass or arena surface” then the reduction in concussion due to being barefoot compared to being shod won’t cancel out that factor of 20.

I take it the same, but it isn't what the poster said up thread, which was why I queried it. He is anti trotting on roads, whatever is on the feet.
.

 

[paddi22]

I never for the life of me understand this, but all the trotter and sulky racers we have gotten in over the years have been the soundest horses we've ever had. We keep track when they are rehomed and they all, without fail, have stayed sounded and never had leg issues. I cannot understand this as they would have been on carts clattering down roads since they were youngsters.

The best explanation a vet every gave me for it was that horses are either hardy or not, and the ones we get are the ones that haven't broken down early. Also going straight is WAY easier on a horse than turns on arena surfaces. Plus one vet thought the legs might be stronger through intense conditioning on roads since a young age. it either makes them or breaks them,. and if they survive they are tough horses less prone to injury,.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I never for the life of me understand this, but all the trotter and sulky racers we have gotten in over the years have been the soundest horses we've ever had. We keep track when they are rehomed and they all, without fail, have stayed sounded and never had leg issues. I cannot understand this as they would have been on carts clattering down roads since they were youngsters.

The best explanation a vet every gave me for it was that horses are either hardy or not, and the ones we get are the ones that haven't broken down early. Also going straight is WAY easier on a horse than turns on arena surfaces. Plus one vet thought the legs might be stronger through intense conditioning on roads since a young age. it either makes them or breaks them,. and if they survive they are tough horses less prone to injury,.

I never thought of it this way before but it makes sense! I mostly just want to hack and go on fun rides, so at least I know that the work I'll be doing with my horse won't be overly strenuous.

 

[Kat]

All the ride and drive horses/ponies I have known have carried on in useful life well into their 20s.

David Marlin recently made a facebook post about trotting on the roads and someone asked about the difference between riding and driving and he thought probably driving would put less strain on than riding due to less weight on the horse's back. Obviously there could be different effects but I doubt that driving sensibly would have a negative effect.

The ones I know had worked hard but not been hammered. Two spent several years as riding school ponies as well as being private happy hack/leisure driving/showing ponies. Another was an ex-FEI level driving trials horse who was retired to a private happy hacking type home, he had got some soundness issues but was still capable of ridden hacking he didn't go in the school much but he had some very fun dressage moves and was a great school master. I also know a couple of people who hunt their ride/drive horses.

 

[scruffyponies]

Years ago people used to 'harden off' hunters who had been turned away for a couple of months over summer by first walking, then trotting them for miles on the roads. The idea was to strengthen the bones.

I would love to see a comparison of bone density between those standard bred trotters and, say, dressage divas who do not leave the arena. That's without looking at the ligament and tendon damage.