Do untalented horses make bad riders?

It depends how you define 'untalented' and 'bad'. I don't see any reason why an average horse, well schooled, can take you to the level they are physically capable of. FC is an 'untalented' pony, he is never going to excel at anything other than specific sorts of driving, but he's correct- he'll get 65% BD and double clears at 80cm jumping all day long. If you ride him you'll also have your limits set by him, but that doesn't make you a bad rider? He's responsive and try's his hardest if you ride correctly. IMO a bad rider is one that hinders rather than helps the horse so in that respect getting something physically limited to perform to its absolute potential is more impressive than only realising half a talented horses potential.
In many instances physically capable horses make bad riders as they over power themselves and develop 'survival' tactics to make the horse less flamboyant rather than riding better. (Something I'm guilty of!)
If you want to be a good rider rather than average then that's different but I don't think untalented = bad.
 
siennamum said:
When I have been in Germany at the riding school, the kids have immaculate seats, and can ride at a high level on the flat. They would potentially be scared stiff galloping in an open space on a naughty pony. It is horses for courses I suppose, but those German kids will make far better dressage riders than kids on ponies will, as a rule. Kids on ponies may never feel or understand what 'correct' riding is -however brave they may be.
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I don't quite agree with this and with the more general point made by others that there is a dichotomy between those who learn to ride with a good seat but can't cope with faster/wilder horses, and those who can deal with hunting/nutters but are all over the place with their seat.

For one thing the German horse educational system is comprehensive and everyone is expected to do everything. My previous dressage trainer, trained up to Master level in Germany, still had to do Sj and XC for her exams. Not to the specialist level required for becoming a SJ or XC instructor but she couldn't say she was opting out of that.

But more importantly a secure seat gives you stability on a horse and confidence. If you have learnt to sit upright it will be easier to stop a horse that's running off and you are less likely to fall off with a buck or spook. So I don't see why people who may have spent, let's say, two years on the lunge with no reins/stirrups, would suddenly have problems if a horse bucked in the middle of the hunting field.
 
Booboos said:
I don't quite agree with this and with the more general point made by others that there is a dichotomy between those who learn to ride with a good seat but can't cope with faster/wilder horses, and those who can deal with hunting/nutters but are all over the place with their seat.

For one thing the German horse educational system is comprehensive and everyone is expected to do everything. My previous dressage trainer, trained up to Master level in Germany, still had to do Sj and XC for her exams. Not to the specialist level required for becoming a SJ or XC instructor but she couldn't say she was opting out of that.

But more importantly a secure seat gives you stability on a horse and confidence. If you have learnt to sit upright it will be easier to stop a horse that's running off and you are less likely to fall off with a buck or spook. So I don't see why people who may have spent, let's say, two years on the lunge with no reins/stirrups, would suddenly have problems if a horse bucked in the middle of the hunting field.
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Well I have found it to be a fact when in Germany, and when my German nieces came to England to ride our ponies. Few German establishments work anywhere but in an arena and while there is hacking in Germany but it is far more of an organised thing. Ponies are less common and in a riding school you are likely to learn on a horse. You may be more secure because you technically have a better seat, but there is a world of difference between doing sitting trot for hours on a 16hh warmblood and being able to do games on a cheeky pony. Many of the kids I know in Germany would find it pointless and scary. The culture is just completely different. I think it is changing because eventing is becoming more popular but for instance until quite recently every German equestrian I knew thought eventing was simply cruel. Unnecessarily risky to the horse, too fast and too dangerous.
 
siennamum said:
Well I have found it to be a fact when in Germany, and when my German nieces came to England to ride our ponies. Few German establishments work anywhere but in an arena and while there is hacking in Germany but it is far more of an organised thing. Ponies are less common and in a riding school you are likely to learn on a horse. You may be more secure because you technically have a better seat, but there is a world of difference between doing sitting trot for hours on a 16hh warmblood and being able to do games on a cheeky pony. Many of the kids I know in Germany would find it pointless and scary. The culture is just completely different. I think it is changing because eventing is becoming more popular but for instance until quite recently every German equestrian I knew thought eventing was simply cruel. Unnecessarily risky to the horse, too fast and too dangerous.
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Me too my SIL was German and I can tell you accomplished German started riders elegant effective and beauiful riders on the flat found even my well schooled but fit and keen hunters a very difficult experiance .
 
siennamum said:
Ponies are less common and in a riding school you are likely to learn on a horse. You may be more secure because you technically have a better seat, but there is a world of difference between doing sitting trot for hours on a 16hh warmblood and being able to do games on a cheeky pony. Many of the kids I know in Germany would find it pointless and scary.
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OK I honestly don't get it. If the sear is secure why would they find the games scary? In what way scary? Presumably if their seat is secure they wouldn't feel like they were about to fall off, so what would be scary about it?
Thinking that eventing is too risky for the horse is quite different from being unable to do as a rider.


Sorry I can't do multiple quotes, but Goldernstar why do they find the hunters difficult? Presumably a GP DR horse or a Grade A SJ horse are also rather keen so it can't be that they are not used to energetic, forward going, powerful horses, so what makes the hunters difficult?
 
Booboos said:
OK I honestly don't get it. If the sear is secure why would they find the games scary? In what way scary? Presumably if their seat is secure they wouldn't feel like they were about to fall off, so what would be scary about it?
Thinking that eventing is too risky for the horse is quite different from being unable to do as a rider.


Sorry I can't do multiple quotes, but Goldernstar why do they find the hunters difficult? Presumably a GP DR horse or a Grade A SJ horse are also rather keen so it can't be that they are not used to energetic, forward going, powerful horses, so what makes the hunters difficult?
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I had a very forward going schoolmaster, and got on very well with him. When I got my exracer, he was also forward going, but it was like we were speaking a different language - he would over or under react to aids in a way my schoolmaster never would have. I can imagine it would be similar for dr horses v hunters - maybe not a whole different language but certainly a strong dialect. Dr horses are taught to obey, to the point where conflicting aids can really upset them. Hunters that know their job well definitely require more of a partnership - they can sometimes be quite disparaging if the don't think the rider knows what they're doing!
 
khalswitz said:
I had a very forward going schoolmaster, and got on very well with him. When I got my exracer, he was also forward going, but it was like we were speaking a different language - he would over or under react to aids in a way my schoolmaster never would have. I can imagine it would be similar for dr horses v hunters - maybe not a whole different language but certainly a strong dialect. Dr horses are taught to obey, to the point where conflicting aids can really upset them. Hunters that know their job well definitely require more of a partnership - they can sometimes be quite disparaging if the don't think the rider knows what they're doing!
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OK I can appreciate that going from one horse to another may cause problems, but now I am totally confused...the German Bereiter exam requires one to ride a number of horses, lunge horses and teach pupils on other horses, and the riding bit includes SJ to 3.6" (I think) height, so who is it that just does DR? The Spanish Riding school's training programme is one year exclusively on the lunge, then two more years on the lunge plus riding schoolmasters, before you get your young stallion, so they don't seem to do a lot of jumping but would anyone seriously claim that a Spanish Riding School rider would get scared riding a hunter?

Sorry I don't see that difference between DR horses and hunters. I have known DR horses stop, turn around a literally look at the rider's foot to say "Mate, you have no clue what you are doing have you?", it's as much a partnership as between rider and hunter.
 
Anything unfamiliar is going to be difficult at first. I wager many 'traditional' English riders would find German auction horses pretty scary and difficult at first and most would struggle to be competitive in American hunters.

But one of the marks of good riding is the ability to adapt and produce whatever response is desired. When they did a Hunter Derby Challenge at the
CSI in Las Vegas the European riders, who had no Hunter experience, produced some lovely rounds.

I doubt the average Club leve rider in Germany is 'better', they just have different strengths
 
I think there is a massive difference between untalented horses and ones who are old, stiff and perhaps know all the tricks in the book to get out of doing as they are asked.

I rode a mare for my B test who could produce the most amazing flat work but only if you knew how to ride her. When we swopped horses the poor girl who got her couldn't even get her on the bit never mind do a circle, it wasn't really her fault, simply that she has probably never ridden a horse like her.

The more horses I ride, the better I ride whether they be good, bad, indiffent, green, cobs, tbs and all in between because every horse is an individual and each has a different key to open the best bits. The more 'keys' I learn the better experience I become to ride different horses.

However, riding genuinely untalented horses on a regular basis is not good for your riding because you loose motivation to improve yourself as they have a limit beyond which they are unable to go. You can also get into very bad habits because you become lazy.

The horse you describe I expect knows his job and has been a decent horse in the past but is older and stiffer now and has years of experience of ducking round what he doesn't want to do. For all you know you managed better than some but everyone is slightly nervous when on trial infront of people and that was bound to be evident. They probably wanted to see how you coped on something that was not completely straightforward but knowing nothing about you didn't want to use a younger, greener horse in case you couldn't ride it and there was an incident.

In conclusion, yes bad horses can make bad riders sometimes and the saying good horses make good riders is very true.
 
Booboos said:
The Spanish Riding school's training programme is one year exclusively on the lunge, then two more years on the lunge plus riding schoolmasters, before you get your young stallion, so they don't seem to do a lot of jumping but would anyone seriously claim that a Spanish Riding School rider would get scared riding a hunter?
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Don't they just do their jumping without a jump?

Nothing funnier than seeing one of their hats pinged off by a capriole mid display...!

Interesting thread. Will now go back to lurking instead of making daft and pointless comments.
 
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They found hunters difficult because they had different skills they where unfamiliar with riding in a light forward seat with riding horses who think for them selves and change balance and pace quickly as they adjust to changing ground .
I think the that freaked them most for the horse being used to and expecting the rider to go with it when it made a quick judgement about the ground .
And of course they where crippled the next day because they had been using a different muscles and other muscles differently.
You as a rider are shaped by what you do .
That does not mean you can't learn to to do lots of things , to be adjustable if you like and the turely talented can adjust themselves the rest of Us need a bit of help.
 
JFTD said:
Don't they just do their jumping without a jump?

Nothing funnier than seeing one of their hats pinged off by a capriole mid display...!

Interesting thread. Will now go back to lurking instead of making daft and pointless comments.
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They are not allowed to do airs above ground until they have reached a senior level about 20 years into their training! :)
 
Goldenstar said:
They found hunters difficult because they had different skills they where unfamiliar with riding in a light forward seat with riding horses who think for them selves and change balance and pace quickly as they adjust to changing ground .
I think the that freaked them most for the horse being used to and expecting the rider to go with it when it made a quick judgement about the ground .
And of course they where crippled the next day because they had been using a different muscles and other muscles differently.
You as a rider are shaped by what you do .
That does not mean you can't learn to to do lots of things , to be adjustable if you like and the turely talented can adjust themselves the rest of Us need a bit of help.
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Fair enough, that is very interesting. Although I do think it's more on the 'different horse, different style, must adjust' school of thought than the 'oh my god I am so scared I want to get off' school of thought!
 
Booboos said:
OK I honestly don't get it. If the sear is secure why would they find the games scary? In what way scary? Presumably if their seat is secure they wouldn't feel like they were about to fall off, so what would be scary about it?
Thinking that eventing is too risky for the horse is quite different from being unable to do as a rider.


Sorry I can't do multiple quotes, but Goldernstar why do they find the hunters difficult? Presumably a GP DR horse or a Grade A SJ horse are also rather keen so it can't be that they are not used to energetic, forward going, powerful horses, so what makes the hunters difficult?
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I learned in Canada, but at a place run by an Austrian, so I can comment on this...I've spoken with other ex-pat Germans riding in the UK, and we've had very similar experiences when moving here (others may have had other experiences), viz.: being out in the open on a sharp horse scared the crap out of us. It was nothing to do with ability or technique, and was far more psychological. My training was at a dressage-focussed place. There were lots of longe lessons, and we did SJ to be well-rounded. We did some games (usually just at the "fun show" with no preparation) and some small amount of vaulting, and hacked oh, about twice a year, far away from any motorised vehicles. We never did XC. I happily sat on anything in the school, and pointed a horse at anything the instructor cared to build. I wasn't personally worried about games, loved them and still love them, but we certainly had no concept of a "games pony" or working on improving games in any structured sort of way. I'll also second that there were far fewer ponies. There were a lot of horses in the 14--15.2 range (as one might expect in North America), and I rode these and occasionally bigger pretty much from the beginning.

(One experience I remember when I was 13 was at summer riding camp...one of the school horses had gone lame, and there were so many kids in our group that the instructor put me on his 4yo 17hh dressage prospect. I was told not to try anything fancy, just to ride him forward and not interfere, and I had a fabulous time leading one side of the "musical ride" that day. Can't really see that happening here and now.)

Coming here and getting back into riding seriously, I was alarmed at the hazards I saw all around me: heavy traffic, barbed wire fences hidden under long grass, holes everywhere, uncontrolled dogs, motorbikes...and I was old enough to understand that if the horse really, emphatically wants to do his own thing, there's not terribly much I can do about it. A few incidents of the pony returning home across a busy road without me have only increased my concern. I now compete in a discipline that involves moving at often considerable speed along ungroomed paths, roadwork, sheep tracks on moorland, fords, boulders, and bogs. Am I insane? (I still get very nervous!)

On the topic of the original question, I think that riding a single horse with problems (whether they be lack of schooling or an actual problem) gives us bad habits that make it harder to ride correctly on other horses. For example, my instructor spent my first lesson on Ballerina Mare once again tearing up my (pony-related) defensive position, that I had previously spent a lot of time and concentration correcting on school horses. I was well taught as a child, but bad habits can slide in without one's noticing: I think it's essential to have a good eye on the ground, and to keep riding horses that give you a good response for correct riding, so that you are always reminded of what it can feel like when things are going well. (Ballerina Mare is so lovely! :) )
 
I think what Bereiters are taught and what they might teach in Germany are 2 different things. I am no expert I should add but my brother team chased and drag hunted in Germany, he is unusual in that his school horses have turnout, and go hacking. Some of the kids in the school (and there are lots of them - 50 odd horses) are gutsy in a way we might recognise, but they simply don't generally ride 'naughty' ponies or gallop in open spaces which to most of us in the UK is the norm. (though there are some characterful haflingers!)

They may have lovely seats & be able to give correct aids, but there is a skill I think to anticipating and reacting when an animal is going to be naughty or when you are simply hacking in a passive way but able to react to the unexpected. If you are simply doing dressage, you are unlikely to know how to ride a strong horse at speed for instance.

My brother had a fantastic young dutch mare in to try out for the school. Frankly she had been ridden abusively I think and she just ran through the bridle in a pretty blind & dangerous way. I rode her & just dropped the contact, she was a bit hollow, but was settled & we had some communication going.
The next day one of the really good school riders rode her & only really had correct riding in her box of tricks, she rode the mare fairly strongly into the hand to soften her in the jaw, & the mare took off, nearly jumped a car.
I saw the horse with the Olympic shortlisted professional on the yard the next day and she was being drilled in draw reins to make her effectively 'submit' it was a great shame. I think in the UK we would probably have just hacked her out for a few months.
Not sure what the point of the story is but as has been said there are good & bad in both systems.
 
Booboos said:
Fair enough, that is very interesting. Although I do think it's more on the 'different horse, different style, must adjust' school of thought than the 'oh my god I am so scared I want to get off' school of thought!
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They weren't scared more taken aback by how difficult it was for them and different the horses felt the degree of automny the horses had was the biggest suprise .
 
It all so depends on how one defines terms though. 'Good' clearly means different things to different people, even within this thread. Familiarity with a specific circumstance, even if it produces a high level of competence, does not necessarily mean transferable skills. I define 'good' riding as the ability to make a wide range of horses go well - soft, forward, compliant, straight (as much as the horse allows) and generally looking ridable. There are great riders across country who can do this and some who are always in the first flight who cannot.

Re familiarly with specific demands, again, a sliding scale. Ben Mahr got help with Jane Clark's horses because he felt he was unfamiliar with the way they had been produced. That hardly makes him not a 'good' rider!! In fact, I'd argue one of the hallmarks of a good horseman (not necessarily the same as a good competition rider) is the willingness to continually learn and try to improve. To come full circle, I think riding lots of horses that do not have ability/correct training acts against this for many riders - they lower their standards and accept mediocrity as that's all they know.
 
Really interesting thread, and thanks for the link to the article PolarSkye, that rang very true with me.
I've never had the chance to ride a well schooled horse, they've all been either your bog-standard RS ponies or a green, un-schooled 4 y/o cob who I shared for a while. I'm an average rider, neither here nor there in terms of 'talent', and was made to feel particularly inept after a recent lesson- rode a fat, lazy, strong cob mare who just wouldn't canter on a circle for me, and didn't keep up canter for more than a length of the school in general. I found her ridiculously difficult, and it certainly didn't look 'pretty'.
I am tempted by a schoolmaster lesson. I want to know how it 'feels' to ride a well-schooled horse.
 
The above is why I think instructors should be prepared to get on a horse if a student is struggling. From an instructor's point of view I want to know how much is the horse and how much is the rider. From a student's point of view, I want to see the instructor act on his/her advice and improve the horse so I a) know what I should be doing and b) can bank the improved feel of the horse when I get back on (this cannot be underestimated as a learning tool).

I used to teach on a horse that had a beautiful canter but he was a wily old guy and would not volunteer it if the rider did not ask correctly. I could literally get on and canter off, do changes etc when students moaned he was 'impossible'. He was by no means a great athlete but he was invaluable for that lesson. We had other horses that would canter with almost no influence so students could learn other things from them. They were, in my book GREAT horses, not because they were robots but because they went correctly when they were asked correctly but didn't take too much offence if the rider got it wrong. Horses like that are diamonds.
 
Many thanks for the responses to my questions, some very interesting thoughts there.

I can understand that different horses could have been produced differently. For example, I used to have a SJ produced by Tim Stockdale who was perfect for an amateur as he sorted himself out. He had been taught to shorten, lengthen, take off from a dodgey stride/angle, etc. all the things you need as a crappy amateur, but I would imagine that if the horse had been produced with a professional, top career in mind, he would have been taught differently, i.e. to listen to the rider more?

I do find it odd though that some people seem to assume that DR horses are submissive, passive and not very powerful/forward. I have never hunted but the most power I have ever felt in a horse is in a DR horse. I don't actually think that is because it was a DR horse, I think it was because it was the most advanced horse I have ridden. Had I ever ridden an advanced SJ or BE horse I think they would have been equally powerful and forward going. The engagement required at the top level (and I have only ridden up to PSG horses not even GP, so I can only ever imagine what that feels like) must produce enormous power regardless of the discipline of the horse.
 
Booboos said:
Many thanks for the responses to my questions, some very interesting thoughts there.

I can understand that different horses could have been produced differently. For example, I used to have a SJ produced by Tim Stockdale who was perfect for an amateur as he sorted himself out. He had been taught to shorten, lengthen, take off from a dodgey stride/angle, etc. all the things you need as a crappy amateur, but I would imagine that if the horse had been produced with a professional, top career in mind, he would have been taught differently, i.e. to listen to the rider more?

I do find it odd though that some people seem to assume that DR horses are submissive, passive and not very powerful/forward. I have never hunted but the most power I have ever felt in a horse is in a DR horse. I don't actually think that is because it was a DR horse, I think it was because it was the most advanced horse I have ridden. Had I ever ridden an advanced SJ or BE horse I think they would have been equally powerful and forward going. The engagement required at the top level (dressage horsesand I have only ridden up to PSG horses not even GP, so I can only ever imagine what that feels like) must produce enormous power regardless of the discipline of the horse.
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I certainly don't assume dressage horses are passive and submissive I have known to many the hottest horses I have known ( with one exception have been dressage horses .
The point I was making was that skills the riders needed where different for the task in hand .
 
Goldenstar said:
I certainly don't assume dressage horses are passive and submissive I have known to many the hottest horses I have known ( with one exception have been dressage horses .
The point I was making was that skills the riders needed where different for the task in hand .
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I wasn't referring to your posts.

I didn't want to pick on a particular post, so generally I think that DR horses that are just ridden in an arena can be as naughty as other horses (e.g. my instructor's youngster took off across 3 arenas in his second show and she could not stop him for a few good minutes, still went on to win the National title later that year as a 5yo), and the best way to react to a naughty horse is by having a good seat. There is an incredible video of Edward Gal riding a young horse that goes bonkers across a diagonal and if you were looking just at the rider you would not know that anything had gone wrong. The horse is twisting, bucking and bronking and he is just sitting there making it look easy.
 
Booboos said:
There is an incredible video of Edward Gal riding a young horse that goes bonkers across a diagonal and if you were looking just at the rider you would not know that anything had gone wrong. The horse is twisting, bucking and bronking and he is just sitting there making it look easy.
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Klimke has a great story in his biography of Ahlerich where he's competing at Goodwood...one side of the arena is looking out over vast open space, and every time he comes across that diagonal, he feels Ali getting bigger and bigger and staring off into the distance, until when he asks for extended trot, he gets a race-horse gallop instead. He finds it necessary to do an emergency stop so they don't leave the arena, and moments later, the horse is passaging like nothing happened. I think he says he can't think of many horses that could recover their concentration like that. :D
 
It's a different kind of scary, so does sort of go to Gs's point. I've had some terrifying moments on dressage horses when I couldn't find the 'off switch' and could feel the horse getting annoyed/hysterical at my attempts. It also goes to the person who said that riding horses that are TOO good can also be detrimental/dangerous and in cases like that it does often come down to the strength and control of the rider's seat.

Klimke is a case to the larger point though, as he always said he felt starting as an event rider (he is still one of only a tiny group of riders who have gone to the Olympics in two disciplines) helped his dressage riding on many levels, including teaching him adaptability and how to not fear really going forward.
 
To the question of a secure seat, I do think 'seat' is a more generic term now - any of the top eventers and even many of the sj'ers would not look out of place in a dressage ring. But good riders don't all ride the same. A contemporary of Klimke's, Lorna Clark, could not have sat more differently than him but she was a brilliant rider, often conjuring soft, forward, enthusiastic performances from horses under the most difficult of circumstances.
 
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