Do you compete at the same level that you train at? BD Dressage

[nikkimariet]

So should Charlotte retire Valegro now because he keeps winning?

Exactly the question I was about to post!!!!

NMT: First place with a decent percentage of 70+.

How come? Winning is winning, right?

Why 70+%?

And is that 70+% all the way up the levels? Prelim, Novice, Elem, Med, Adv Med etc etc?

I'm not having a go, I'm not offended at all (in fact I'm rather chuffed that I have a horse that isn't a purpose bred, is on his second career and IS winning regularly), I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind your opinions

 

[3bh]

I think I've missed the boat on this thread!!

But have been meaning to reply when I got to a computer (can't co-ordinate giant fingers and phone)

I don't claim to set the dressage world on fire, I enjoy BD in that we compete to collect points, beat our own personal best scores, and every year go to the RoR racing to Dressage final. Its one of the "many" things my horse does, he has qualified for the RoR showing/jumping finals, competed under a sidesaddle, hunted, hacked, evented, you name it. I enjoy all walks of comepteing and I am competitive in a quite laid back way, I'm easily pleased with a rosette and a few £ for a cup of tea.

My boy (been under saddle for 2 years but last year had 6 months box rest after injury so a bit late starting!) is competeing (and winning) at BD Novice, and has recently done an unaff Elem. I would say he's schooling Nov to Elem at home, his lateral work is definitely not test worthy but its used as part of his schooling. I did the unaff Elem (42, it barely counts!) for a bit of fun really, but I made sure we could ride every single move pretty darn flawlessly before I went out in public, I woudldn't compete if I couldn't ride through the moves - my boy is pretty "wibbly" and likes reassurance - if he does something wrong (wrong leg, whatever) he will squeal and become one big bubble of tension until you've given him fuss, an ear rub, and told him the world isn't going to end; so I wouldn't put him in a position to set him up to fail but I like the challenge of pushing it a little further.

A bit like how he'll jump a 110 track at home or during a lesson, but at an event I enter a 90 or 100, I want to make sure when going somewhere strange in public we are more than capable of the job but at the same time challenging our boundaries a little more every time whilst knowing we can ultimately get around clear and happy without too much effort.

If I was aiming for AF/Regionals I would probably stick to Prelim but the tests bore me and I personally have no desire to do AF or Regionals, I think they are great events to aim for and I enjoy watching people progress but its just not for me, we have other goals that usually involve jumping things!!

Our aim is to event BE and I like doing BD for the discipline and mileage - our experience is in showing where I am used to producing a horse for a judge to ride, so the training for BD is good for us both to change our goal prior to starting an event career.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't think it is a problem. That's like saying I should have won a maths scholarship to my 6th form because I was doing the questions well with the GCSE level knowledge I had, rather than the person who applied more sophisticated techniques with a higher level of knowledge. It was, as a competition is, a test of what you can do. The horse in a 'novice' outline was performing at a higher level so gets higher marks...

I guess that's the mistake I make. I thought it ought to be possible for a true preliminary horse to win a preliminary test, but it's not, because the other competitors are riding true novice or even elementaries, which are scored higher even though the shape that they make is supposedly not required at that level.

I understand your example and that's clearly the way it actually works in practice.

 

[cptrayes]

Interestingly, we seem to split into two mainly with eventers/ex eventers, riding at the level they train at and pure dressage folk who are training at a higher level and more motivated to win and qualify for other things.

I'm not joking when I say I go partly for the day out and the coffee, and its been very interesting to read and try and understand other people's motivations.

I guess PS and NM on their super talented ex racers probiably have as much trouble working out why I want to spend my Saturdays throwing myself over five foot hedges in the mud as I do puzzling why I wouldn't be at all excited by what they enjoy and are so successful at.

It will actually make it more enjoyable to compete next season, assuming my horse comes right after his operation, to understand that I'll probably never win because I'm just not motivated enough to work that hard to get there. But I respect those who do, especially on horses which were not bred for the job.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Interestingly, we seem to split into two mainly with eventers/ex eventers, riding at the level they train at and pure dressage folk who are training at a higher level and more motivated to win and qualify for other things.

I'm an eventer but hold with the 'pure dressage theory' (and yes, I know you said 'mainly'!)

 

[nikkimariet]

I guess PS and NM on their super talented ex racers probiably have as much trouble working out why I want to spend my Saturdays throwing myself over five foot hedges in the mud as I do puzzling why I wouldn't be at all excited by what they enjoy and are so successful at.

Not really, hunting is awesome, I just don't have anything that does hunt nor do I have the time to pursue it (also I do prefer riding in swanky indoors!)

 

[DabDab]

I guess that's the mistake I make. I thought it ought to be possible for a true preliminary horse to win a preliminary test, but it's not, because the other competitors are riding true novice or even elementaries, which are scored higher even though the shape that they make is supposedly not required at that level.

I understand your example and that's clearly the way it actually works in practice.

I don't really understand what you mean by this logic - I don't know if I'm missing something, could you explain how you think the 'fair' way to judge things would be. Absolutely genuine question, I'm just wondering whether there is another way of thinking about it that I'm missing?

 

[oldvic]

I guess that's the mistake I make. I thought it ought to be possible for a true preliminary horse to win a preliminary test, but it's not, because the other competitors are riding true novice or even elementaries, which are scored higher even though the shape that they make is supposedly not required at that level.

I understand your example and that's clearly the way it actually works in practice.

Prelim tests ask for working trot and canter. As long as the more advanced horse is ridden in this way then, provided they are correct in their way of going, they will earn higher marks than a horse with less engagement and balance. However, if the genuine prelim horse goes correctly then he will earn more marks than a more advanced horse who is more advanced in his neck than behind the saddle. Sometimes it is not so easy to ride a more advanced horse in an easy test as the movements help to keep them listening and on the aids.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't really understand what you mean by this logic - I don't know if I'm missing something, could you explain how you think the 'fair' way to judge things would be. Absolutely genuine question, I'm just wondering whether there is another way of thinking about it that I'm missing?

Just one example, I think it would be fair if two horses showing rhythm, balance, submission, accuracy to an equal level in a preliminary test were scored the same even if one has the nose slightly in front of the vertical and the other doesn't. I use that example because it's my understanding that the nose being slightly in front of the vertical is a preliminary outline, and the other horse should not therefore be rewarded for exceeding the requirement of the test.

I can see how difficult this would be to judge though, and I understand that the reality is the way you explained it and that most people seem happy with it. I do have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about how much modern dressage is overbent and how much in front of the vertical is punished, I'll admit

 

[nikkimariet]

I don't really understand what you mean by this logic - I don't know if I'm missing something, could you explain how you think the 'fair' way to judge things would be. Absolutely genuine question, I'm just wondering whether there is another way of thinking about it that I'm missing?

I do wonder.

Prelim is still a level of riding, subject to judging based on the scales of training.

 

[cptrayes]

Sometimes it is not so easy to ride a more advanced horse in an easy test as the movements help to keep them listening and on the aids.

I found the same with my very quirky KWPN. He was a much more amenable horse to ride at medium than at lower levels. We both had more fun even though he wasn't 'ready' to do a medium.

 

[Theocat]

IMO-training is where you test things, at home. At a competition you should be well within the comfort zone and able to show off what you can do REALLY well.

Logically I'd agree with that - and with my logic head on I'd definitely prefer to be schooling at home a level above where we compete. However, it's the competition environment itself that poses questions for us - it's exciting for the horse, lots of distractions, a rider who is no doubt a bit nervous and probably more tense than normal even if I try hard not to be, with the result that things we can do perfectly well at home that still need a lot more work when we're out and about. I can't replicate that atmosphere at home, so for us we need to keep getting out and competing - it's not beautiful at present when we're out and about, but unfortunately it never will be if we only practise at home.

 

[Jo_x]

I have seen horses schooling well at elementary at home (i.e. not just trying a few movements, but doing them well routinely) who have not done well at prelim as their outline was too advanced.

However, I don't actually have a problem with more advanced horses scoring highly in prelim tests, as long as they are competing within the eligibility rules of that competition.

 

[FinkleyGladiator]

QR - I used to train at elementary at home with Finn mainly because I enjoyed the challenge of harder movements but we werent good enough to a whole test (we competed at prelim/novice). It also made him listen more during transitions including when we were out competing
I can understand why one would though, as I jumped at least 10cm higher at home than competitions so when I was walking the course I wouldnt get worked up about height/width as we'd done higher comfortably at home

 

[LynH]

I have often pondered this over the last few years mostly because my situation isn't exactly normal. I have health issues which mean I cannot ride for long or very regularly.

My horse is capable of working elementary at home when I am well enough to ride her enough to get her fit. To do that I need to take lots of breaks and plan my work sessions quite carefully. The biggest problem I have is stringing everything together to do a test without stopping for a breather. I can with a lot of work and luck health wise get to the stage where I can get out and do a prelim or possibly if I have enough months of good health to get through a novice. About 3-4 years ago my trainer was pushing me to do elementary with the aim of moving up to medium by the end of the year. It didn't happen and now I am back to planning as my goal for this year to get out and do a prelim on the same horse.

I feel bad doing unaff prelims as my horse is clearly schooled above that level but happily go out at BD prelim and aim for Area Festivals (qualified 3 times but only been well enough to go once)

I was so upset when I managed a first and second at prelim a few years back to overhear a couple of people talking about me and how I didn't even warm up properly and still went in and won. My trainer had worked with me for ages to give me a good walk warm up which enabled us to go into the test with enough breath to complete it. My friend heard a comment that I've been doing prelims forever. True but not through choice.

What some people may think as pot hunting can to someone else be a major achievement and weeks/months of hard work just to get out there.

 

[NZJenny]

My instructor has me training a level above that which I compete. That means I am comfortable with what I am doing in competition, but working on moving on. Works for me.

 

[amandaco2]

depends why you are competing.
is it fun and to test where you are up to- or is it to qualify for something or improve the price of a horse for sale?
personally i like to be comfortable and training a level above the competition class to be within the competitive zone and stand a chance of a good mark and winning. i think there is an unfair element to see the same horse and rider combinations who are clearly well advanced above the level in a competitive sense who win at the same level for many months/years....to me it seems to be it becomes pointless to take such a combination to that level of test as it doesnt confirm anything other than the fact the horse is achieving well over the level required for that test.....but then if the rider/ owner is chasing quals then it will make sense to them. it seems at regionals/ champs the same level is often judged harsher and obviously the top horses at that level are all in one class- so prehaps this contributes as to be competitive in such classes, one has to be at a level competitive 2 levels above the class (as opposed to training 2 levels above)..............

 

[TarrSteps]

I think, despite the amount of discussion/outrage on the subject, there are very few people who stick at a level below their ability specifically to steal prizes from more deserving folk.

I have a friend who competes and often wins at AM and has been for a couple of years. In reality though it's probably their ceiling, especially since the horse does other jobs, too.

I saw two horses yesterday that, frankly, outclassed their competition and were scored accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised if people grumbled. But both are very green and were in the appropriate class, they were just better horses.