do you entrust your mare for breeding ?

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Xipe

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Hello everyone,

(excuse my english)
I am currently in an "in between" professional situation and I don't know if I should bring my horse from France or not.
Today I can greet her in Kent, where I am working, but I can soon or later or never move to London for my career. If it happens, I can't afford a full time livery so I have to find another solutin

I would like to know if you have the same practice than in France : to entrust a mare to someone who wish to breed. In exchange, the breeder takes in charge all the fees for the mare.
This could be a solution if I have to stay away from her for a while, even more that later I would love to breed a foal myself.
First, how I can find people interested by that ?


Second point, I am not sure my dear has a pedigree good enough to be interesting. how can I know that ?

In france there is a rating : it gives the value of the horse regarding his performances in competition. This rate is a reference for the stallions mostly.
Do you have something similar ?

Or can someone help me with the french datas I have ? (or someone you know...)

here is her pedigree
her father has an ISO 133
the father of her mother has 159
her grand father is the famous "Papillon rouge", 180

She has not done much herself, but we used to go in eventing competition and I have nice pictures of her jumping and I can talk about her very nice personality :)

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lise
 
I'm not up on the jumping pedigrees as my interest is mainly dressage - others on here can comment better than me.

People do take mares on breeding loan. Volatis who is a member here can probably advise you on that as she loaned her mares out while she was working for PSI in Germany
 
People do take mares on breeding loan but you have to be very careful. A contract is essential. Never trust anyone in the horse world, especially when they will be using your mare to make money for themselves. Most people are honest but sadly some will abuse your trust. Please make sure that wherever your mare goes you can keep an eye on her.
 
Thank you for your answers.

I have left a message to Volatis, let's see !

AMW, may I ask how you have chosen the mare ?

First, how did you know about her (word to mouth, advert ?)
And what make you choose her ?
 
Hi Xipe,
Welcome to England and to Kent in particular.
Now to answer your questions:
1. Our mares are not licensed or judged in any way. Mare owners are free to find a stallion we like the look of, pay the stud fee and let the horses get on with it. The stallion owner is free to reject any horse they don’t like the look of if they want to but most seem to be more interested in taking the money. Some of the breed societies do grade their pure bred mares but most private owners tend not to bother as grading is not done in many places in the country. Stallions are now always graded by the breed societies and owners who use a non-approved stallion cannot have their foals entered in the breed registers . Take a look at the New Forest Pony web site as an example: http://www.newforestpony.com/
2. If you wish to loan your mare you should call her a “potential brood mare”- because you don’t know until you have your first foal that she will breed successfully. One site where loans are advertised is http://www.nfed.co.uk/ . There may be a better one for those living in Kent as this one is mainly centred on the New Forest in Dorset and Hampshire. It will be useful for you to get an idea as to what a potential loanee wants to know e.g. height and breed of your horse in particular. If I have read the web site correctly Papillon Rouge is a hugely successful Selle Francais, this might affect some breeders plans for the prospective foal. Other ways of advertising include horse magazines such as Horse and Hound, (la crème des crèmes), Horsemart, adverts in local papers, tack or feed shops and word of mouth. Generally word of mouth is best. Sadly no chevalannonce or leboncoin for the UK.

I echo the need for a formal contract so as you both know what is expected of the other. I’d also suggest getting your horse Freeze marked as soon as it’s in the UK as it makes it easier to spot if it should “stray” and taking a friend with you when you meet any potential loanee. The friend will be there to witness what is said between you.

Now I have a question:
Did you actually buy this mare? I saw your other post about livery in Kent and would suggest that if you want to ride in this country then you could take on a loan or share of a fit horse, not buy one with health problems, however slight.
We don’t have to have any licenses or qualifications to ride or compete, so the money you save in buying and importing the mare could go towards the monthly keep. Your sharer could perhaps school or hack x times during the week and you do week-ends. Otherwise I’d suggest you go to a decent British Horse Society establishment where your financial commitment will be limited to what you can truly afford and if you have to move for the sake of your job then you won’t have any additional complications hanging around your neck. Bear in mind that if you import the French mare in due course you may feel you have to export her again if you go back to France and that too will have major costs.

If you don’t understand anything I’ve said feel free to PM me and I’ll write back in French. I have personal experience of having to settle into the French horse world so know how daunting it can be to go to another country and take on their ways of doing things.
Best of luck.
 
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Hello Sunnyone,

Thank you very very much for this answer, I really appreciate it. I think I understand most of what you're saying ! (good luck for this very long reading)

1/ about the rate, I was not talking about the mare of course. She hasn't done anything to deserve it. I ask this question in order to explain the value/level of her french bloodline to english people !
In France even if someone doesn't know any famous stallion like Papillon Rouge, when you say that her ancestors are ISO (or IDR, ICC) 132, 159 and 180, it is clear that she has performers as parents.
So do you know an equivalent to this kind of rating to explain her potential (or not) ?

2/ Thank you very much for the link to newforest, it's a first step to understand "the market".


To explain you more about the situation : no I didn't bought her yet. She has been bought from the riding club by a charity association that tries to offer a retirement to the horses kind enough to accept so many riders on their backs.
I have only accepted to take charge of her (nothing official though). She is currently on livery close to Paris : it's expensive so it must be temporary.

my situation :
I'm a very young professional, I earn enough to keep a horse modestly (2500£/year + a reserve of course). The problem is about my professional futur that is really unpredictable. My work is interesting for now but I don't think I will have the opportunity to progress here. I'm not in a rush but I will be looking for another job sooner or later.


3/ Why not sharing a fit horse ?

first, I didn't find easy to share a horse here (I haven't search a lot), even more when you don't know anybody. And most of all, I'm very attached to this girl. I've been riding her for 5 years and I've done with her my best experiences. I've stopped riding her maybe 4 years ago, and I remember I've cried (a bit) the day I had the chance to ride her again after a year.
She means a lot to me and I can afford the have her, that's why I've accepted.

When you say : "so the money you save in buying and importing the mare could go towards the monthly keep." I guess you talk about the monthly keep of the shared horse ? You need to know that the mare won't cost me much to bring here : her price is based on horse meat, 400€ + 400€ to make her come here (no other specific cost). However it will cost much more If I have to send her to Bordeaux from here (see below why Bordeaux)
I know it's cheaper and easier to share a horse, around £15/25 I saw. But I would rather have her if I can : I've already found a grass livery with quick supervision during the week for 25pw, in my budget.

the second point is that If backtrack, I don't know what will become of her, I didn't receive a clear answer from the association (I should have say I can't take her, and then I would have seen what was possible from them... now I'm a bit trapped). Hopefully I have a solution : A friend in south of France (Bordeaux) can greet her for a low price (1200€ a year, all inclusive) with all my trust. But it's still something to pay for a horse you never see and I'm really not sure I can find someone to ride her sometimes and share the costs. Do you think I should insist with the association ?

There is something I didn't understand : "Otherwise I’d suggest you go to a decent British Horse Society establishment where your financial commitment will be limited to what you can truly afford" I guess you're not talking about a yard approved BHS that can do nothing for me : what is it so ?


My problem is that I'm so indecisive about my job, I can stay here 5 more months or more than a year : I don't know exactly what I want to do next, and If I can. The time to decide and to find another job can be pretty long...

To try to sum-up, here is my 2 options :
I can bring her here anyway, but there is a chance I have to leave her again and pay her way back to Bordeaux (if have to move to London for example).

Or I can send her directly to Bordeaux, try to minimize the costs and considering bringing her closer to me only when If have a stable situation. To be honest, the simple idea to have/ride her again makes me so happy that it makes me a bit childish and obstinate to bring her here.


So much details about my poor life ! Sorry if you got bored, I wouldn't blame you. But maybe it will help you to tell my what's the wisest decision.
"l'amour rend aveugle !"
 
Papillon Rouge in the top pedigree and Rantzau in the bottom is not bad on paper. If you can post pictures it would be helpful for people to see how that translate in reality.
My broodmare is currently out on being loan. I advertised her on Horsequest and had lots of interest. I shortlisted candidates, then spoke to them on the phone, then got a couple to come and see her in the flesh, then chose the person I liked best and felt was most suitable. It does work, but you do have to be careful and keep the paper work tight.
You could also look to loan her as a riding horse if that is possible.
I'm also French and have lived here for 20 years. Please feel free to pick my brains and use my contacts if you wish. I have sent you a pm. Give me a call if you like x
 
Hello Ginnie,

Here for 20 years, that's something ! Thank you very much for offering your help.
I realize I'm starting a much larger thought on my futur and what I want to do.

To know if I should bring her and be able to place her if I need, maybe I could place an advert to try and see if I get answers.

Here is more details about Lola :
she is going on her 14, full Selle Français breeded by the French national stud. She has nice origines, very strong and powerful, very tractable and respectful, but she is not well balanced (downhill) and quite "heavy".
I used to go on eventing competition with her, winning pre-novice and running a few novice competitions (clear rounds). She jumps fantastically and in we could have good grades in dressage (a few 1st places).
With a proper rider she could have done so much more

a few pictures of her : 1, 2, 3
 
Sorry it took me a few days to reply to you, I had family visiting!!

Thanks for the explanation of the rating, it helps. We’d probably refer to competitions or amount of prize money won but each horse discipline has its own system for recording success and I’m not an expert on them.

With regard to the “decent” BHS establishment I was thinking about a) you making some “horsey” friends in the UK and b) getting a chance to enter some type of competition in the UK if you want. Some, not all, BHS establishments have specialities e.g. one yard I helped out at was hunting orientated thus I got to ride some really good hunters and was invited to go out with one of the top 5 hunts in the country.  Another I know organises an annual One Day Event at which their own horses compete alongside the professional riders who give their young horses experience. The pros and their horses owners have often come from more than 100 miles away. Further down the road from them is one specialising in dressage.Thus these yards have good horses for their clientele to expand their knowledge on and use for competition. It enhances the yard’s reputation with clients if one of their own riders beats a professional.
I appreciate your dilemma with the horse. It’s really good to see you have a contingency area for her in Bordeaux. 100 euros a month seems a reasonable sum for round there but I agree that you want her somewhere where you can see her regularly and get some happiness from the money you spend on her. Your budget for the UK is also good but not great as you have found some where for £25 a week and some help there too. I always reckon that with doing much of the work myself one horse costs more or less equal the cost of 20 cigarettes a day but I have never smoked so never know the price of cigarettes from one month to another. In other words you’re good to go. Loan her out if you wish but make sure you can visit regularly.
However, if you take her on then you may be forced to keep your job at all costs just to pay for her. I think you need to think ahead 5 years and work out what you want to be doing then. Do you want success in your career, have changed to something else entirely, be at home with a baby or two or be raising foals perhaps? If you know what you want to do then you can work out where a horse fits into your life. I don’t think people’s 5 year plans ever work out, life gets in the way, but they do help work out where the priorities are. Remember the rescuers who have the horse now stand more chance of finding her another good home whilst she is fairly young, 5 years down the line you might have real difficulty.
Was just ready to post this when I saw your photos, she’s lovely and you look like you’re having fun which is what it’s all about, in my opinion. If I were you I would be taking her on, but you need to be really sure. I’m surprised the rescuers haven’t got a queue waiting for her.
 
Hi Sunny,

same for me, I was away during easter break and a lot to think so no much time to answer neither.
Thanks for saying such nice things about Lola ! the best is that she is absolutely adorable, I was so lucky to ride her.

I have not submitted her to rescuers as I first want to take care of her, but I didn't know it can be easy. I encourages me. Anyway we live only once and it looks like there is different option for Lola if I have to move, so I will bring her soon :)

It is true that I think more generaly about the near futur. The best for me would be to work in connection with horses. I am still very young in my professional life and available as I don't have any personal commitment yet. I would regret if I don't try to work with horses.

Ideally I would love working in a horsy environment, but not necessarily always in direct contact with them. I was thinking about working in a big structure where they need both admin and maybe stable work (big yard, stud farm)
In my dream I would love working in competition organisation as I like coordination work, and I would be into this world. But it won't be easy.

Do you think I can manage to do something if I get to know such a place and get hired to a lower level of course ?
Or is it a bit naif and I have too few chances because : you need to know someone or you won't find such a position ? or there is very few places like that and too many candidates ? Or I need absolutely a specific degree ?
I do have licence + a bachelor year in event organisation

I'm aware that there is more money in horseracing, so more opportunity, but this is not my cup of tea.. To me horse is not about performance, but about in the connection you can built with him through techniques.

Hopen to any idea
 
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Hi Xipe,
Sorry it’s been a really busy couple of days.
I don’t know how you break into the professional horse world now. The way I got my experience was to find somebody and then go and ask them if I could “work for rides” i.e. they paid me only by letting me have more riding than I was able to pay for. As long as they could see I was eager, adapted to their ways and reliable they took me on for the week-ends. I couldn’t afford to give up my normal job so there was need for me to get any qualifications, nor do I think it was possible to do anything other than be a BHSAI or BHSI, but I may be wrong. Outside of teaching and racing most successful people who evented or showed their horses then seemed to be amateurs or so wealthy they didn’t need to work for their money. I know, for example, that champion Percheron’s in East Anglia were produced by a man who owned and ran a forklift company, and that only if he sold on a horse did he make any money out of his hobby and that money went straight back into the horses.
Later when I had my first horse, girls would ask me about riding for me on the same basis, some just rode but a couple of them competed in cross country or other events on her at Pony Club level. It was good for them and good for the horse who would otherwise never have been ridden by anybody else as I had broken her myself. I had her from 3 to 28 years and we mainly did medium distance riding i.e. 50kms at a time.
Nowadays qualifications are so much more important, as are insurance issues, and indeed avoiding possible legal proceedings when something goes wrong. I think also girls are more nervous of asking to be allowed to work for nothing more than riding.
If you do want to find out more it may be a good idea to have a chat with somebody at an Agricultural College as they are now the experts in all things equestrian even though horses are not agricultural animals in the UK. Hadlow seems to be sited throughout Kent now and to be telling prospective students about their courses this month, and of course, what job opportunities there are at the end. http://www.hadlow.ac.uk/courses/equestrian-studies/
Remember you don’t have to sign up for a course to get the information from them. However they will be the ones to know whether your French qualifications match ours and how you can use them to advantage.Better to know than wonder forever.
How’s bringing your mare over to the UK coming along?
 
Hi Sunny,

Things are not going well about Lola. I've make her checked by a vet and she is still laming after a few months of rest, which is not a good sign at all.

It can be a consequence of the daily turnout if she runs when she gets free. But still, her leg is maybe in a worth condition that the club told me.
In addition to her tendonitis, the vet suspects arthrosis on a fetlock

she needs more time to recover and then see the true state of her leg. I don't want to give up on her but it is pretty depressing.
I guess the better option is to send her to Bordeaux to my friend. Even if I will not be able to look after her she will be in good hands and cost me less in money and worries.
All in all I'm pretty disappointed not to be able to greet her, and it looks like it will be much more complicated than expected.
I'm about to contact the association, but I don't really know what to say and what to do to get some help from them.


Let's change topic.
I did not get everything you told me about successfull people in competition, but I totally agree that it is very hard to achieve, and most of the time for people either born with horses or very wealthy.
I don't want to work as a BHS or to be a professional rider either. So do you think that agriculture college can help me with my project more on the admin/organisation part ?

I was more thinking about finding and visiting large competition venue/yard, or farm stud, try to meet someone in charge and question him about the "habits" regarding recruitment.
I guess if I manage to talk to such people, they would be able to tell me if I have my chances or not.
 
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