Do you jump your 4yo? And if so, how much/high?

[snooples]

I think it would be interesting to look at in terms of humans too, what would a 4 year old horse be, maybe a 12-14 year old child.
You would expect a 12-14 year old to do a wide range of activites obviously not to the extent an adult does but its certainly not a baby either.

I think as long as the horse is correctly warmed up, has good fitness and isnt jumped on bad ground then jumping a couple of times at home and at competitions when its 4 shouldnt have any adverse effect

 

[Mickyjoe]

Totally agree.



You see thats the difference between a pro and a non-pro! A professional can jump a 4 yr old at home twice and then bring it to a show a jump around a 90-1m track in a controlled sympathic manner. There's no tanking, getting in too deep, going on a mad long one etc. It's actually not much more than a gymnastic exercise. A non pro rider would probably have been jumping regularly at home for months to come anywhere close to this. A professional will also have the benefit of experience to know when a horse is playing up or when its worried. I'm neither for or against and there will always be professionals that will rush young horses and only have an end of year sale in mind, however, its a little broad to assume that all horses jumping at shows as 4 yr old are on an express ticket to the scrap heap!

Agree 100%. Well said Bantry and Tarrsteps.

 

[TarrSteps]

Yes, re a horse's 'behaviour' (read training) in the ring, no pro worth his or her salt would have a four year old leaping and tanking and generally being unridable. I've seen even very good pros get caught by one that's good at home and lights up in the ring but I'd expect that to be virtually a one time thing. That is definitely NOT a good introduction to competing for a horse and not something most pro trainers would consider 'normal' or something to be 'got through'. At the very least it would mean they had misjudged the horse's level, which can happen if the horse is very good at home. In most cases at that point they would scrap 4 yr old classes - they aren't the path for every horse, to be sure and nobody thinks they are.

 

[Darremi]

I think it would be interesting to look at in terms of humans too, what would a 4 year old horse be, maybe a 12-14 year old child.
You would expect a 12-14 year old to do a wide range of activites obviously not to the extent an adult does but its certainly not a baby either.

I think as long as the horse is correctly warmed up, has good fitness and isnt jumped on bad ground then jumping a couple of times at home and at competitions when its 4 shouldnt have any adverse effect

I like your analogy snooples. When I was between the ages of 8-17 I used to do a lot of athletics and that involved running and jumping on fairly hard grass and tartan running track. Lots of children do this sort of thing at that age. Think about how much a 2yo racehorse does compared to popping a 4 yo over a few fences and going to a jumping show or two. I am not saying that I agree with 2yo racing, I think it can be detrimental, but there is no point being too precious with a 4yo. TB's are certainly almost physically matured at that age, and a WB not far behind. I have jumped all the 4 yos that I have had over the years and I think it can be very beneficial. I don't mean this is an antagonistic way, but sometimes I think there are a few people on here that are so precious with their horses it is wonder they ever get on them!

 

[horse.love92]

My horse is 4 (5 in sept ) but I've been told by some HHOers that I have to say he's 5 .
We jump every other week usually . Have had 1 lesson this week on the XC doing a coffin jump . It was only about 2ft3 but a tricky combination which is in our 80 course ! Pony flew it though no trouble . We only jumped on average 6 jumps though .

I have a comp this weekend and am doing 80cm and 85cm on him . I'm not going to push him to 90 until he's more towards 6 years . We have jumped the odd 90 fence out XC and also he jumped over a brush without brushing it resulting in us jumping quite a height !
Mainly I just do hacking with him though and 1 comp each month

 

[Rosiefan]

Although my horse has been technically 4 since the first of January his 4th birthday is actually tomorrow. He has done a few BNs (winning a couple of them) and one or two Discos. He is entered for a 4yr old BE event (90cms) in a couple of weeks time. He loves jumping and he has lots of time off between comps. She who rides him knows what she's doing though.
He hasn't been pushed - he's just good at and loves jumping and has done DCs where others haven't.
Relax!

 

[PapaFrita]

I jump LC up to 80cm. I concentrate more on developing his canter and gridwork rather than height. I've jumped PF since she was 4 and she's 15 and still sound as a pound with clean limbs. I'm not a pro in the 'proper' sense of the word, but I HAVE good sense and know what my horses can or can't cope with.

 

[windand rain]

I agree with the thought that they should have an all round education and that a bit of jumping in the 4 year old classes probably does more good than harm. What I dont agree with is starting them younger than 4 at all so most of the pro jumpers will have been backed and ridden out at 3.
So I suppose what I mean is it is ok to do a bit of everything with a 4 year old as long as it is part of the starting process and nothing is done to excess or too young.
My 4 year old has been backed about 8 weeks now she is happy to walk, trot, canter and gallop sensibly and has recently popped a pole or two but in those 8 weeks she has probably only been ridden for a total of 20 times in her life, she is naturally balanced and carries herself well. Several of her ridden times have been hacking out alone and in company So she has done a bit of everything. She soon gets bored with going round and round in circles but has a real verve for life when doing different things. So horses for courses some are quicker to learn than others it really does depend on the horse

 

[abailey]

I agree with the thought that they should have an all round education and that a bit of jumping in the 4 year old classes probably does more good than harm. What I dont agree with is starting them younger than 4 at all so most of the pro jumpers will have been backed and ridden out at 3.
So I suppose what I mean is it is ok to do a bit of everything with a 4 year old as long as it is part of the starting process and nothing is done to excess or too young.
My 4 year old has been backed about 8 weeks now she is happy to walk, trot, canter and gallop sensibly and has recently popped a pole or two but in those 8 weeks she has probably only been ridden for a total of 20 times in her life, she is naturally balanced and carries herself well. Several of her ridden times have been hacking out alone and in company So she has done a bit of everything. She soon gets bored with going round and round in circles but has a real verve for life when doing different things. So horses for courses some are quicker to learn than others it really does depend on the horse

couldn't agree more .......I'll try to locate a really good article that discusses breaking horses in before they're 4 and post.......

 

[abailey]

This is a very interesting article about starting horses young....bit long winded but worth a read. A x


http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

 

[TarrSteps]

I love Dr Deb.

 

[Tnavas]

I usually start polework and raised poles at 4 with view to popping over tiny cross poles at the end of the year ready to start a bit more when they are 5.

But everyone has differing views, my stepmum doesn't like them jumping full stop until they are 5.

Professionally produced 4-year olds will be jumping around 1.05-1.10 in the finals at for example Addington Young Horse Champs. But they will generally have been brought on by experienced people and good pro riders.

Hock and spine don't finish fusing until mid 5 so I always leave mine as long as possible before jumping as I want them to last.

I don't like the age series of jumping as I think it encourages people to rush their horses.

My youngest is rising 5 and is now being broken to ride. She will be ready to bring on and develop over the next year.

 

[snooples]

Hock and spine don't finish fusing until mid 5 so I always leave mine as long as possible before jumping as I want them to last.

I don't like the age series of jumping as I think it encourages people to rush their horses.

My youngest is rising 5 and is now being broken to ride. She will be ready to bring on and develop over the next year.

But how much more susceptible are non fused bones to injury is something I would like to know.
A lot of human bones dont fuse until the person is in their 20s but if athletes waited till then to start training they would have missed their prime

 

[Tnavas]

But how much more susceptible are non fused bones to injury is something I would like to know.
A lot of human bones dont fuse until the person is in their 20s but if athletes waited till then to start training they would have missed their prime

My friends mare was jumped in the 4 & 5yr old series and is retired to the paddock since 7!

What are the biggest problems people face these days? Kissing Spines and Hock problems - both these areas take a lot of stress - with dressage the hocks are expected to take all the weight and with jumping propel the horse off the ground and the riders are on the horses backs far earlier than in the past when a horse wasn't even considered to be broken until it was turning four. Then it was very lightly worked and turned away and brought back in at five to start serious work.

Spanish RS horses are not even broken until their 6th year - they work well into old age.

Re the atheletes - what is the career span in years of a high level athlete?

 

[MegaBeast]

KS are not a modern problem, there are journal articles detailing them dating back to the early 1900s. Research has also shown that over 2/3 (possibly higher % but can't remember specifics) of all horses have kissing spines to some degree.

 

[snooples]

My friends mare was jumped in the 4 & 5yr old series and is retired to the paddock since 7!

An unfortunate case but definately not the norm.
It is common for horses here in Ireland to be broken and hunted at 3 or 4 and most will continue work until their early 20s.

I think you cant generalise with horses, you cant say no horse should be jumping at 4 becuase they will end up with KS or hock problems, I think it is up to the rider to asess wether the horse is physically ready to do the work that is being asked.
Of course though it is always best to err on the side of caution and hold off in the case of inexperienced riders.

but I guess its hard for a lot of people to have a horse sitting around for up to 5 years with no increase in value and just costing money.

 

[TarrSteps]

Re MB's comment, as I've mentioned before I have a book that discusses what we know call kissing spine from the early 1900s. The author assessed the horses, had histories on them, and then was able to autopsy. Ditto hock problems - there has been discussion about how to treat, shoe etc horses with hock problems for about as long as people have been writing books on horse care.

I had an interesting conversation last year with a vet, discussing what I've observed to be the quite common phenomenon of lower neck pain in horses and how it manifests in behaviour. She said when they autopsy horses they almost always see significant wear and tear in the joints in that area.

 

[siennamum]

Re MB's comment, as I've mentioned before I have a book that discusses what we know call kissing spine from the early 1900s. The author assessed the horses, had histories on them, and then was able to autopsy. Ditto hock problems - there has been discussion about how to treat, shoe etc horses with hock problems for about as long as people have been writing books on horse care.

I had an interesting conversation last year with a vet, discussing what I've observed to be the quite common phenomenon of lower neck pain in horses and how it manifests in behaviour. She said when they autopsy horses they almost always see significant wear and tear in the joints in that area.

My friends horse is being PTS on Tuesday. He has compression the vertebra of his lower neck. This is a huge issue in my opinion and we will see more and more issues relating to horses worked in an outline too young resulting in issues with the lower neck. This is more of an issue to my mind than jumping & galloping as we are making horses work in an unsustainable way.
Until the horse has a strong neck we should not be asking it to work 'on the bit'.

 

[dominobrown]

I don't know where the idea comes from that in the 'good old days' horses were broken in later. There was 6 year olds going round Badminton etc, and I bet most horses 100 years or so were worked harder earlier mostly for financial reasons.
As for the bone/ not finishing growing argument- this goes two ways. Yes you don't want to over-stress the bones, but to strengthen bone doing no exercise is detrimental, also small amount of stress actually strengthen bone.
Its a bit like saying kids shouldn't do any P.E until they reach the age of 18- it would actual be detrimental to their health. The same for a horse- fat unfit youngster is not as healthy as a fit one.
So what I am trying to say is gentle work and exercise is good for a horse, leaving it until 5 or 6 may not be as beneficial as some would like to fit as bones and muscles will not be conditioned and will actually be softer.
I do want to point out that gentle exercise, and small amounts of work would probably be healthiest. In the wild a wolf wouldn't attack a youngster because it was 'only a baby', it would go for the the youngster because they are weaker. Again this means that the strongest fastest youngsters would survive, while weak slow maturing horses would be lunch.

And I know plenty of horses with KS and hock problems who where broken in very late as well so the link between age and KS/ Hock problems is suspect at best. Some one needs to do in depth research- personally I think it has more to do with genetics, conformation, and how the horse is trained.

 

[siennamum]

i also wonder whether I lived in an alternate universe in the 70's. Horses were broken in as 3 year olds and worked thereafter. they did often have the winter off, but they also had often done a bit of cubbing first.

My horse was straight out novice eventing as a 5 year old, his first XC experience was an open team chase. Back then you just got on with it. (could barely trot a circle on the bit of course haha)

One of my ponies was PTS due to KS in the late 70's, I should add, she also had EPSM which then was labelled Azoturia, and they hadn't much idea how to treat apart from feeling her lots of glucose syrup....... so we haven't invented these things recently.

 

[Rollin]

i also wonder whether I lived in an alternate universe in the 70's. Horses were broken in as 3 year olds and worked thereafter. they did often have the winter off, but they also had often done a bit of cubbing first.

My horse was straight out novice eventing as a 5 year old, his first XC experience was an open team chase. Back then you just got on with it. (could barely trot a circle on the bit of course haha)

One of my ponies was PTS due to KS in the late 70's, I should add, she also had EPSM which then was labelled Azoturia, and they hadn't much idea how to treat apart from feeling her lots of glucose syrup....... so we haven't invented these things recently.

I am so pleased to see this thread. I have already posted and replied to other posts on this subject.

In France pedigree horses have to enter competition at the age of 3. SF and reining championships are for 3 year old horses. SF jump loose to 1.4m and are jumped ridden over small fences.

I face this battle with my Shagya stallion, approved for the stud book at age 3, he must jump 1.4metres or compete 3x90kms at endurance at age 6. He won't be doing either.

Two friends in France, one a French Trainer and another an English lady tell me of horses who are ruined by this challenging regime. My French Trainer is a champion Western Rider he says young quarter horses suffer long term problems as a result of the challenges they are presented with. He also gets SF for re-backing after they have been stressed by jumping competitions.

No surprise I plan to send my boy to the UK.

 

[TarrSteps]

Re the age thing, yes, there are plenty of stories of horses going into Team training at 6 or 7. I'm another who is not convinced by the 'good old days' being proof of anything.

Re, riding horses in 'an outline' I would say you have a point but probably not the one you intended. The minute you start taking about 'outline' and 'frame' and anything else that puts appearance over function, that's where the problem starts. Compressing the neck, pulling the nose in (which often causes the back to be held down rather than stretched up) and other practices that concentrate on the front end will interfere not only with the neck but with the whole shock absorbing system of the horse, which is largely dependent on the sling mechanism. Teaching a horse to engage and develop the muscles of the abdomen and back to most effectively carry the rider is, to my way of thinking, beneficial, especially when done with sensitivity. We want to ride them so it's up to us to teach them how to most effectively carry us.

 

[Luci07]

. There was 6 year olds going round Badminton etc/QUOTE]

No there weren't. A 9 year old is considered to be young for Badminton.

I am in favour of introducing jumping at 4, but very low key and getting the horse out and about but as a one horse owner, for me, it was more about exposing my horse to different situations and I have seen young horses ruined by overfacing them.

I freely admit my view this time round is heavily coloured by the fact that mentally, my horse has taken a long time to catch up on his physical growth. He was heading for BYEH as a 5 year old but we came to the conclusion he was not ready. He could have jumped the course with a professional but would not have coped with the big atmosphere. No hurries, he is, I hope, a horse for life.

 

[bananaloaf]

Luci07, the very first winner of Badminton, back in 1949, was the 5 year old Golden Willow.

 

[MegaBeast]

Teaching a horse to engage and develop the muscles of the abdomen and back to most effectively carry the rider is, to my way of thinking, beneficial, especially when done with sensitivity. We want to ride them so it's up to us to teach them how to most effectively carry us.

This is so true and I suspect where a lot of the problems stem from. People get fixated on pulling the nose in to get a "pretty" outline but not a "true" outline and forget to ensure the back and abdominal muscles are truly developed, or they go the other way and back off entirely with a young horse thinking it's kinder not to ask them to work correctly. I think this where some, maybe a lot, of amateur riders go wrong with young horses where a pro has the necessary to work a horse correctly and build up the right muscles, both for flatwork and jumping at an early age.

 

[wench]

I've had to have a 4yo pts before for chronic ks and associated hock problems... And it hasn't done much work at all...

 

[glenruby]

Clava, I'm afraid you really need to do your research not spout rubbish. Quite the opposite is true, firstly at 4 years of age, minimal maturation is possible within joints - this maturation is mostly complete by 11 months. Normal stresses are required at early stages of development to ensure correct maturation of cartilage. I suggest you do some reading.

 

[kerilli]

Luci07, the very first winner of Badminton, back in 1949, was the 5 year old Golden Willow.

Yes, but with respect, Badminton then was not the same as Badminton now! They could enter with the minimum of 'qualifications', I'm pretty sure some had done just a few ODEs. It wasn't like nowadays where they would have had to do at the very least a few seasons of full-on eventing to get the qualifications.

I agree with TS and Megabeast about the musculature etc. If a horse is taught this way, and the arched neck and vertical face is the LAST piece of the puzzle to be put in place, I strongly doubt there will be lower neck problems. The modern fixation with the front end, the idea that if the horse isn't in the right outline it looks as if you can't ride, is a huge problem.

 

[snooples]

The modern fixation with the front end, the idea that if the horse isn't in the right outline it looks as if you can't ride, is a huge problem.

Completely agree with this. And what I find so frustrating is the dressage judges who seem to give great marks to a horse who has his head stuck in an outline but isnt even coming close to tracking up! you would wonder how these judges got qualified.
I wouldnt expect a 4 year old to be able to go into an outline and I think forcing them too will probably do more damage in the long term than jumping once or twice a month

 

[Fools Motto]

QQ re jumping young horses/ponies.

Is this all done on an arena surface, or do you also jump in the fields? Would either have any advantage/disadvantage?
Does it make a difference if it is a young horse or a pony of the same age?

I ask because I have a young pony, and don't have an arena! Want to know when and how to start!