Do you like this young stallion??
- Thread starter TFS
- Start date
volatis
Well-Known Member
Pedigree is OK. Would like to see more than just a jumping shot before forming an opinion. Did he grade in Holland?
TFS
Well-Known Member
yes i think he did, would obviously see him in the flesh first
christine48
Well-Known Member
I saw him in the spring as I thought of using him. Edward Bleekman said he didn't grade in Holland as he was thought to be immature. I decided against him because he already was too big and looked as if he'd end up around 17.hh so I used Karandasj instead as he was smaller and also proven.
ashbank
Well-Known Member
Here's the conformation shot for those who haven't seen it -
kanter
Well-Known Member
Looks a bit sickle hocked ?
PrincessDana
Well-Known Member
He's got a decent pedigree. Nice shape overall but looks a bit back at the knee in the conformation shot...could just be a bad photo though.
Are you thinking of using him? What sort of mare are you thinking of putting to him?
Are you thinking of using him? What sort of mare are you thinking of putting to him?
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Saw him in Den Bosch, Holland in February. Of the Chin Chin category (i.e. direct sons as well as grand-sons, which Zip Phin was) there were other stallions of very exceptional breeding and with a fantastic jump. He was a nice enough stallion but there was some Chin Chin sons who were spectacular. Secondly his mother line is not that well proven, so this would have gone against him as well in Den Bosch. The mother has no predicate, and the grand mother is only Ster, so a very weak mother line for the Dutch judges (IMO). For him to be accepted with that mother line he would have had to have been exceptional....
The KWPN are very strict on the bloodlines of stallions they accept now, especially regarding proven mare lines. The stallions would have to be pretty exceptional either in the dressage or jumping before the judges would put them through to the 70-day test. And even then, of the 50 stallions that make it to the 70-day test, only around 25 will actually be Approved for breeding.
Although I know that a hint of politics are also in the mixing pot as well......
The KWPN are very strict on the bloodlines of stallions they accept now, especially regarding proven mare lines. The stallions would have to be pretty exceptional either in the dressage or jumping before the judges would put them through to the 70-day test. And even then, of the 50 stallions that make it to the 70-day test, only around 25 will actually be Approved for breeding.
Although I know that a hint of politics are also in the mixing pot as well......
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
i dont particuarly like his front legs he looks quite long in the pastern and i dont like his feet,but it could be they just need a trim/angle of the pic
his bloodlines sound good and the kwpn are strict on accepting stallions.
if it was a proven mare well matched to him i would consider him
personally i prefere to pay more for a proven stallion but if you particularly like him and he matches your mare, why not?
his bloodlines sound good and the kwpn are strict on accepting stallions.
if it was a proven mare well matched to him i would consider him
personally i prefere to pay more for a proven stallion but if you particularly like him and he matches your mare, why not?
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
The one good thing is that he will have been full x-rayed and endoscoped etc, so you know he is free from all hereditary defects.....
Has been represented at a stallion grading in the UK? Does not say on the website, so perhaps you need to know where you get your paperwork from.
Has been represented at a stallion grading in the UK? Does not say on the website, so perhaps you need to know where you get your paperwork from.
htobago
Well-Known Member
Could be an unflattering photo but he really doesn't inspire me - looks a bit back at the knee, upright pasterns, quite long cannons, etc. Plus his head looks rather big and plain (but that could be my Araby prejudices coming through LOL!).
Would hate to be unfair on a horse based on just one photo, though.
Would hate to be unfair on a horse based on just one photo, though.
volatis
Well-Known Member
Given that he didn't grade with the KWPN (fair enough I know they are super tough) I would want to see him prove himself in sport before even considering him.
Damien
Well-Known Member
Sacha thats a tad contradictory considering you frequently use young unproven, unapproved stallions.
Agree with Anastacia his damline is not that strong with a general lack of predicates there so would not have bore well with the KWPN at a grading.
However its important to bare in mind that if he made it through to the final rounds (?) they must have liked a lot about him, they will have been splitting hairs by the time he got that far and again the strong competition of the direct Chin Chin sons probably also outweighed their decision.
Agree with Anastacia his damline is not that strong with a general lack of predicates there so would not have bore well with the KWPN at a grading.
However its important to bare in mind that if he made it through to the final rounds (?) they must have liked a lot about him, they will have been splitting hairs by the time he got that far and again the strong competition of the direct Chin Chin sons probably also outweighed their decision.
SJFAN
Well-Known Member
I could not begin to judge Zip Phin on the basis of one photo, but the dam's line is not what I think of as weak. Her sire, Lux Z has proven offspring, and her maternal grandfather is Burggraaf, one of the most popular of KWPN stallions.
Damien
Well-Known Member
yes could not agree fab pedigree but what Anastacia has highlighted is that the damline only has two times ster.
freinds have several colts going forwards this month and the mare lines are in the top mares listings of the KWPN.
The Pref & Prest indicates that the mare has consistantly produced a number of premium mares (ster) and produced at least three progeny with International success so the KWPN tend to favour those stallions that have. It doesn't really mean that the horse is any less talented but with so many good stallions to choose from they start getting picky and will make decisions based on the mare line data collected.
freinds have several colts going forwards this month and the mare lines are in the top mares listings of the KWPN.
The Pref & Prest indicates that the mare has consistantly produced a number of premium mares (ster) and produced at least three progeny with International success so the KWPN tend to favour those stallions that have. It doesn't really mean that the horse is any less talented but with so many good stallions to choose from they start getting picky and will make decisions based on the mare line data collected.
Wisnette
Well-Known Member
The KWPN do like stallions damlines to have predicates but they also rate damlines that have produced graded stallions, international competition horses or mares that have done well at the NMK.
Zip Phin's dam hasn't done that as Zip PHin is her first foal. However HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch and her granddam was herself a grading champion. The damline also produced the KWPN approved stallion Habsburg so I think the KWPN would actually regard the damline as pretty good.
Zip Phin's dam hasn't done that as Zip PHin is her first foal. However HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch and her granddam was herself a grading champion. The damline also produced the KWPN approved stallion Habsburg so I think the KWPN would actually regard the damline as pretty good.
Damien
Well-Known Member
and having said all of that a number of the stallions approved last week were slightly lacking in the predicate department also... however Zip Phins mare line has produced a good number of International horses the further back you delve.
Is Prestatie Predicate not indactive of this Wisnette? Or is it merely a standard even at National level that counts?
Is Prestatie Predicate not indactive of this Wisnette? Or is it merely a standard even at National level that counts?
volatis
Well-Known Member
Ros, I never said I hadn't used young ungraded stallions. I have used Ringo, who is the only stallion I have used that is ungraded, but when it comes to using coloured stallions I fully accept that you have to make compromises. Coloured stallions are few and far between compared to their solid counterparts and are not yet of the quality of the best solid ones. I had however seen his first crop of foals before I bred to him. I make no bones of the fact I am happy to take a risk on young stallions, hence why I have foals by Don Ricoss and Vincent on the ground, and have a mare due to Showmaker next season. I also use older stallions too, depends on the mare, the stallion, etc etc
Anyway back to the horse in question. Given there are many jumping bred stallions out there with an equal if not better pedigree, who have been approved by the KWPN, or another studbook, I wouldn't breed to this particular colt yet. I dont like him enough from the one conformation photo, his pedigree is fine but I think there are better jumping stallions out there, so until he proves himself either in sport or through his offspring, I wouldn't use him. After all the OP asked what we thought of him and that is my humble opinion.
Anyway back to the horse in question. Given there are many jumping bred stallions out there with an equal if not better pedigree, who have been approved by the KWPN, or another studbook, I wouldn't breed to this particular colt yet. I dont like him enough from the one conformation photo, his pedigree is fine but I think there are better jumping stallions out there, so until he proves himself either in sport or through his offspring, I wouldn't use him. After all the OP asked what we thought of him and that is my humble opinion.
ajf
Well-Known Member
Hes got such a nice, laid back outlook on life!!!! Given him a cuddle when he was asleep in his stable lied down!!! Pictures aren't great of him, see him in flesh and he'll show u a bit of 'wow'.
catza
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The KWPN do like stallions damlines to have predicates but they also rate damlines that have produced graded stallions, international competition horses or mares that have done well at the NMK.
Zip Phin's dam hasn't done that as Zip PHin is her first foal. However HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch and her granddam was herself a grading champion. The damline also produced the KWPN approved stallion Habsburg so I think the KWPN would actually regard the damline as pretty good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds a very nice dam line to me!
The KWPN do like stallions damlines to have predicates but they also rate damlines that have produced graded stallions, international competition horses or mares that have done well at the NMK.
Zip Phin's dam hasn't done that as Zip PHin is her first foal. However HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch and her granddam was herself a grading champion. The damline also produced the KWPN approved stallion Habsburg so I think the KWPN would actually regard the damline as pretty good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds a very nice dam line to me!
christine48
Well-Known Member
the photo doesn't do him justice. If he is close by then I'd advise you to go and look at him in the flesh.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
HER dam produced the 2004 reserve champion at Den Bosch
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
Wisnette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Is Prestatie Predicate not indactive of this Wisnette? Or is it merely a standard even at National level that counts?
[/ QUOTE ]
The prestatie predicate is awarded to mares who have 3 or more offspring who have achieved a minimum level of success at a certain competition level but its not really THAT high a level (I am not exactly sure but I think its about the equivalent of our medium in dressage and 1.20 in jumping)
Is Prestatie Predicate not indactive of this Wisnette? Or is it merely a standard even at National level that counts?
[/ QUOTE ]
The prestatie predicate is awarded to mares who have 3 or more offspring who have achieved a minimum level of success at a certain competition level but its not really THAT high a level (I am not exactly sure but I think its about the equivalent of our medium in dressage and 1.20 in jumping)
Wisnette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
[/ QUOTE ]
But he was invited for the performance test and horses who's pedigree aren't considered strong enough for approval are weeded out at the 3rd round.
I was also at Den Bosch this year so I also saw the horses and damlines available. Its just from my experience, the really great damlines that people rave about tend to be the ones that consistently produce grading champions and international competition horses, which aren't necessarily the ones with elite pref prest at every generation.
[ QUOTE ]
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right and I am not being argumentative but it is possible as the American born, KWPN approved Citango proves.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to tell me anything about attitude, I have the T-shirt - lets leave it at that.
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
[/ QUOTE ]
But he was invited for the performance test and horses who's pedigree aren't considered strong enough for approval are weeded out at the 3rd round.
I was also at Den Bosch this year so I also saw the horses and damlines available. Its just from my experience, the really great damlines that people rave about tend to be the ones that consistently produce grading champions and international competition horses, which aren't necessarily the ones with elite pref prest at every generation.
[ QUOTE ]
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right and I am not being argumentative but it is possible as the American born, KWPN approved Citango proves.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to tell me anything about attitude, I have the T-shirt - lets leave it at that.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
[/ QUOTE ]
But he was invited for the performance test and horses who's pedigree aren't considered strong enough for approval are weeded out at the 3rd round.
I was also at Den Bosch this year so I also saw the horses and damlines available. Its just from my experience, the really great damlines that people rave about tend to be the ones that consistently produce grading champions and international competition horses, which aren't necessarily the ones with elite pref prest at every generation.
[ QUOTE ]
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right and I am not being argumentative but it is possible as the American born, KWPN approved Citango proves.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to tell me anything about attitude, I have the T-shirt - lets leave it at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not all the ones with the weaker mare lines get weeded out, I know of a few people who were surprised by the one Waynne Channon had through, yet it is now Approved and got good marks.
You are correct, I forgot about Citango. However, I also know how upset the breeders were about the stallion forward by VDL out of the same mare as Judgement.
Yes the KWPN are masters of the arrogance trait....
[ QUOTE ]
Yes she did, but I think you will find that Ulstar never became Approved for breeding...
The damline is ok...and its great for the owners of the dam that she produced her first colt as a Den Bosch prospect. But Wisnette, you have to realise that we are comparing this stallion to those that we also saw in Holland, and also the other dam lines that are available.
[/ QUOTE ]
But he was invited for the performance test and horses who's pedigree aren't considered strong enough for approval are weeded out at the 3rd round.
I was also at Den Bosch this year so I also saw the horses and damlines available. Its just from my experience, the really great damlines that people rave about tend to be the ones that consistently produce grading champions and international competition horses, which aren't necessarily the ones with elite pref prest at every generation.
[ QUOTE ]
I think its great for his British breeders that he did so well and got as far as Den Bosch, if that was me then I would be over the moon as his breeder.
But I do also think politics come into it, as I said above, and call me cynical but IMO the KWPN would not be keen on a British/Irish/American bred colt coming through...it would be fantastic if that was the case though.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right and I am not being argumentative but it is possible as the American born, KWPN approved Citango proves.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember at the International meeting we attended this year with friends. One lady from the KWPN who shall remain nameless was speaking to us about KWPN horses, as soon as she realised that my friend who was with me bred Hannoverians, she turned her back on her for the rest of the conversation, which we all thought was the height of rudeness. She had no idea whether my friend was there to shop for a KWPN horse or stallion, but she burnt her bridges in doing what she did. The KWPN are a top studbook, there is no denying that, but IMHO they are also so far up their own bums with their arrogance, and that is the one thing I dislike about them...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to tell me anything about attitude, I have the T-shirt - lets leave it at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not all the ones with the weaker mare lines get weeded out, I know of a few people who were surprised by the one Waynne Channon had through, yet it is now Approved and got good marks.
You are correct, I forgot about Citango. However, I also know how upset the breeders were about the stallion forward by VDL out of the same mare as Judgement.
Yes the KWPN are masters of the arrogance trait....
AmyMay
Situation normal
For what it's worth I think he is just cracking. Sure the confo picture may not be the best - he's not stood over enough ground - so does look a little back at the knee.
He has the most beautiful shoulder, and is a really nice compact looking little horse. I have no idea what you're looking to breed, but if he's near enough definately go an have a look.
Also at 3 years old there's a lot of maturing to come and I suspect he will only get better with age.
He has the most beautiful shoulder, and is a really nice compact looking little horse. I have no idea what you're looking to breed, but if he's near enough definately go an have a look.
Also at 3 years old there's a lot of maturing to come and I suspect he will only get better with age.
TFS
Well-Known Member
oo god what did i start lol i will def go c him as i like him type wise n its 4a mare that is tricky 2get in foal so i would prefer to use a stallion that edward has there and the mare is not a superstare her self she has bred me some lovely foals that i keep for myself 2compete rather than sell, yet if he was for one of the other mares i would agree the dam line is weak in the sense of lack of ster n pref in the dam line
Damien
Well-Known Member
Sacha the emphasis of your post was that you would not use him as he was not yet proven in sport, reconfirming in your second post that the stallion in the discussion is also non approved. Both are of course valid viewpoints however you have now reiterated that you do choose to use unproven sires and defend your reasons for doing.
If one rationalises that a stallion should not be used for breeding because he is unproven (in sport or otherwise) then one would not expect to find that same person using stallions that fall into exaclty the same category.
If one rationalises that a stallion should not be used for breeding because he is unproven (in sport or otherwise) then one would not expect to find that same person using stallions that fall into exaclty the same category.
volatis
Well-Known Member
Ros I'm not going to bother arguing with you. I never said I would only use a stallion proven in sport. I said I wouldn't want to use a stallion that failed his grading until he had proven himself either through his offspring or in sport. I just wouldn't breed to an unapproved unproven young jumping stallion when there are many other young jumping stallions out there with the same/similar bloodlines, conformation etc etc that have been graded. If you have the choice thats what I'd do. All things being equal I'd go for the graded young stallion over the ungraded one when there are so many similar stallions out there. If its a rare breed, coloured, whatever, then things are slightly different - bay Dutch show jumpers are plentiful so I think mare owners can be more selective.
As I said before the only ungraded stallion I have used, I had at least seen his (successful) first foal crop, and yes I took a risk using him. As it turns out it was a risk worth taking and I am sure there are plenty people would will take the risk of breeding to this young stallion. I wouldn't for the reasons I have explained above.
As I said before the only ungraded stallion I have used, I had at least seen his (successful) first foal crop, and yes I took a risk using him. As it turns out it was a risk worth taking and I am sure there are plenty people would will take the risk of breeding to this young stallion. I wouldn't for the reasons I have explained above.
Damien
Well-Known Member
no your right no point splitting hairs, what was said was [ QUOTE ]
Given that he didn't grade with the KWPN (fair enough I know they are super tough) I would want to see him prove himself in sport before even considering him.
[/ QUOTE ]
and that is open to everyones own interpretation.
Given that he didn't grade with the KWPN (fair enough I know they are super tough) I would want to see him prove himself in sport before even considering him.
[/ QUOTE ]
and that is open to everyones own interpretation.