Do you need to have ridden at 4* to be able to comment/criticise?

Saratoga

Saratoga

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A musing from the other threads I am reading with interest on here at the moment.

Do you need to have ridden at the actual level to be able to comment/criticise/applaud people's riding?? Do you need to have been in that situation yourself to be able to know exactly what it's like, or can we all watch, evaluate, criticise and learn for our own benefit?

I for one believe that watching others (especially at a higher level than we are competing) is an INVALUABLE learning tool. To evaluate what they are doing, what they have done well, what they could have done better makes us ALL better riders and trainers. We all learn, no matter what experience we have or what level we are currently competing.

If this leads us to criticising 4* star riders out there (who as we know are all perfect as they wouldn't have got to that level otherwise :rolleyes:) then so be it.
 
No, but, there are heck of a lot of back-seat drivers in here!

Some of the riding makes you cringe, other is frankly amazing however even the cringe inducing riding, is easy to criticise and far harder to do it in reality

Sadly this forum is very bit&hy :(
 
Some of the best trainers, such as Dot Willis, never rode at anything like the levels at which they have, with huge success, taught.
I don't think you need to have ridden at a specific level... if you have a passion for horses and the sport, a keen eye and an analytical frame of mind then you can evaluate, appreciate, and in some cases criticise as well as anyone.
Riding experience helps of course, if only to convince one that the way it looks and the way it feels at the time can be a thousand miles apart... ;) ;) ;)
 
But do people break down what they are watching? See how the rider is sitting, what they are doing with their hands, how their bodyweight is positioned at certain questions, whether the horse is ridden in forward and positive, or sat back on their hocks with the rider waiting for the fence, and whether that approach was the best for that horse and that question in particular? Etc etc etc.

Or do people just watch in awe, and decide if overall it was either an act of genius or an awkward cringing viewing?

ETA cross posted with kerilli
 
No and it has driven me mad on the acm thread when people keep dismissing peoples opinions because they aren't 4* riders.
I show jump rather than event and enjoy bringing on youngsters. I spend time with top physios, trainers etc and enjoy the management side of competing. Making sure that the horses are looking 110% is very important and as a result we can comment on other horses whether it's another members horse that has started to buck or stop or whether its a top horse that appears to have altered it's way of going.
You don't need to be able to ride to have an educated opinion, my oh is a classic example, he can't ride at all yet I value his opinion on my riding and how my horses look.
The other reason I feel that you can pass comment on horses or riders competing at a higher level than you is because often you can make a judgement based on things you have experienced. I don't want to turn this in to yet another ot thread but my comment about him was based on me knowing an owner that had horses with him. My friend buying one from him and me getting the ride on one of his old horses so I feel that in that situation you CAN gauge how someone rides and treats their horses. Can I say if he is nice? No because I don't know him so I wouldn't comment.
 
I agree you don't have to have ridden at 4* level but you do need a certain amount of well 'nounce'!

I knew people would criticise Camilla for her fall saying she rode too fast for example but they didn't see the run in and could only see the fall and aftermath. To those that could see the run in it was blatently obvious she was trying to hook back the horse, to those that couldn't it would look like she was going for a gungho approach.

Basically without all the facts it is far too easy to criticise.

I haven't ridden 4* (infact not even 1*!!) but I can watch an approach and analyse it but I normally wouldn't want to comment on a rider's choice of approach as it is often very dependant on the horse they are sitting on. There are some which are obvious, i.e. you approach a coffin in 'coffin canter' rather than a full out gallop but a lot of fences are open to interpretation. The same is true in Showjumping and to an extent dressage. It is hard to comment/criticise in most circumstances without knowing the horse and many other factors.
 
Some of us do! I learn SO much watching it go right... and wrong!
e.g. working out HOW does AN manage to make it look so easy, and go so deceptively fast, when other riders look as though they are hustling their horses.
Some of the problems were apparent a long way before they happened, some came out of the blue...
e.g. Susannah Bordone. This isn't supposed to be bitchy, it's just my analysis... she rides beautifully, it usually works really well, but she lost her position jumping into the Lake (i think the horse bellied the fence a little, can't remember), was tipped forward and then was slow to regain her position, plus she's small and light and just doesn't have the powerful driving legs some of the other riders have... so wasn't in a position and didn't have the strength to drive the horse together to jump out successfully... as, say OT did, when his horse jumped in far worse, but because of his superior core strength and leg strength, and maybe faster reactions too, he was straight away in a great position to organise and push the horse together for a successful and clean bounce out...
see, it's not all crit of OT! ;) ;) ;)
it fascinates me too that even the very best riders change slightly from year to year. Mary King was much softer with her hands, not as defensive as she has been in recent years, and I think it really showed in how brilliantly Imp Cav went. She could be forgiven for resting on her laurels, but it looks as though she's been working on this (she did say in an interview, last year i think it was, that her worst habit is over-defensiveness xc).
loads more, it just fascinates me to see how diff horses and riders cope in diff ways. and as for seeing The Master at work again, wow. the way he guided that horse, showed him the way, encouraged him, without ever 'driving' him, and the horse's confidence just grew and grew...
 
I dont think you have to have ridden at a certain level to be able to critically evaluate a performance, but I do think you have to have some form of understanding of just what it takes to get there.
I will never ride at that level, I dont have the bottle, and I admire anyone who does. That doesnt mean I always admire the way they do it though. I understand the principles of balance, rhythm and control (had them drummed into me at an early age) and think I can look at each individual element and critique a performance based on that, not just the overall picture. It takes a huge amount of skill and determination to get a horse to that level but it also takes an understanding of the horse, the ability to change your methods to suit the horse and the humility to call it a day when the horse is really not responding! The big thing is, pro's are only human, they make mistakes too. The big question is if they take anything away from them. If they do, great, if not then they open themselves up for criticism where those of us not in the public eye dont.
While I would love to have the skill and nerve of some of these guys I dont envy them one bit. I couldnt do their job just as Im sure most of them couldnt do mine ;) But then what do I know, I only ride at BE100 atm and only have aspirations of doing 1* ;)
 
No absolutely not - a person might not have the money, the time, the opportunity - or perhaps the bravery or skill - to compete at a high level - but that doesn't mean that they do not have the ability to understand what is required and analyse performance.

When something is wrong, its wrong - Amy Tryon for example?

In my opinion its useful to discuss events, and not accept that simply because someone is a professional that they can do no wrong - but I do think there is a fine line between constructive discussion and simply b*tching about people when they make a mistake, which I think is unnecessary.

There is a difference in my mind between addressing issues that are potentially abusive or dangerous, and slating someone for making the wrong call, or being a bit untidy in places, when overall they're doing a good job - I think there is a tendency of some to try and pick faults instead of praising the good, which I think is harsh, but not to be confused with objective and constructive discussion.

I do think at times though that it would be worth remembering that even the professionals are still real people with real feelings - who can make mistakes like anyone else - and would you really want every mistake you made in a XC or SJ round criticised and pulled apart by people who don't know you?
 
There is a very big difference from those who watch others compete at a higher level, learn from it and are in a postion to help/criticise etc even if they have not ridden at that level. To me it comes down to the amount of exposure someone has had to certain levels, not if they have ridden at that level. I learn a lot watching the top riders and their different approaches, though possibly not much use to me in that I am never going to be a 4* rider! but watching them ride at the lower levels is always helpful.

There is also the other brigade - you know, the old ladies who would have sat at the french revolution watching the heads roll. They sit around the rings, fiercely criticise all the riders and have done very very little themselves!. Now they should take a long walk off some very short planks! actually on rethinking, that is not criticism, its just plain bitchiness!
 
No I do not but there is also being respectful to the fact you do not know the full story. For instance my friend rode at Badminton a couple of years ago and someone commented on how badly she rode but did not know any of the background to the horses' issues and the stuff that was going on in the background of her life and though you might say she should not have been there - there is a limited window to have a crack at Badminton and you enter months in advance and the effort to get there is years not months.
 
No, I don't believe you do but it does help to have been in and around the sport for years, have made your own mistakes and learn from them, have had plenty of tuition and help throughout your time in the sport and have a knowledge and understanding of how it all works. :)

I think anyone can see when a horse is struggling, dare I mention when Amy T jumped the last fence on Le Samurai at Lexington, my 13 year old son was watching it with me and commented "that doesn't look good", he has nothing to do with horses!:eek: So he was most definately an armchair critic that day, but he wasn't wrong!! ;)

Just because someone hasn't jumped around a 4* track, it does not mean they haven't had years worth of experience at the lower levels, yes, i'm talking about myself, and therefore is not entitled/qualified to comment.

As i've said, I know what style of riding I prefer and there are some riders that I just cannot bear to watch :o regardless if they are a nice person or not!
 
I don't think you do. Watching the pro's is such an education but if they are making errors such as riding far too fast and that is pretty easy to spot why shouldn't we be able to comment.
 
I posted on the OT thread that I wondered how many HHOers have ridden round a 4*, and that is a genuine question really. No, I don't think you need to have ridden to a level to be able to comment on it, but I do think that there are people on here who actually have no concept of the circumstances on which they are commenting and do tend to have rather tunnel-visioned, black and white, intransigent views on things without looking at something in the round as it were.

Quite often I'll start reading a thread with one opinion, and by the time I've read some of the replies I'll be thinking differently :D Not sure if that makes me very receptive to the opinions of others or simply unable to make a decision for myself :rolleyes:
 
No, but I have decided I prefer to have these conversations with mates in the pub/over a cup of tea rather than on an internet forum, a)because I *do* know some people who read this and would rather not be associated with the somewhat embarrassing view of HHO that they have which is perpetuated by the nonsensical threads we get after every big event and b)because having said a), I bet there are loads more people I don't know that read it, and I refer you back to my reasoning for a!!

If you were having this conversation in the tack room then really, it's fine. As soon as you do it on the www then you make yourself look a bit of a tool really, unless you have ridden/trained people at the level, because however much you don't mean it to, it comes across as a bunch of wannabes criticising people they can't emulate, without having any clue about what goes on behind the scenes to get there, or what the pressure is like on the day.

I just know saying this will get me shot down in flames....and I don't mean it personally to anyone, it's just an observation in general! And I will obviously keep having the conversations with people in RL ;)
 
No, I don't think you do (phew! :))

However, I do think you need to have some sort of understanding about high intensity competition, of any discipline, and the fundamental physiological structures that are put under pressure at this level, It's really surprised me how few people on the previous threads mentioned anything to do with the above, I'm by no means suggesting that there is anything wrong with any horse that tires quickly or unexpectedly, BUT, personally, its something i give great consideration to.

I also think that maybe the move to short format has seen a move away from training for endurance.... but that's a whole other day!

i'm also surprised by the number of people who consider that because they don't 'like' the style of someone/something it is 'wrong'. Imagine the world if we were all exact copies of a 'perceived' perfection!!
 
I think SpottedCat has hit the nail on the head.

I try not to criticise when not directly talking to the person I'm criticising because I think it can be interpreted or can descend into bitching.

I hope TableDancer doesn't mind me saying this, but when were at Burgie I learnt a lot from her about being positive and not criticising/bitching. I do try to not comment on others riding in a negative way, but sometimes it's out before I remember :o

How many of us sit at a competition venue with the 'expert' behind us and pray they would shut up? Why should anyone want to hear our own opinions anymore than we want to hear their's? Like SC said, with your mates, fine!
 
I agree with the OP's comments.

While obviously if you haven't ridden at a certain level you may not understand the pressures a certain rider feels or how a horse reacts to that, I think of course it is clear to see when something isn't right or something happens that you don't agree with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion at the end of the day, whether or not we all agree is a different story ;)

Similar scenario happens in football.. My sisters fiancee is very vocal on the skill (or lack thereof) of the players on the teams he follows!! ;)
 
QR - Just read the whole thread. Some very valid points being made. Especially SC's comment.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for people competing at the top and I know I will never go that far (my eventing ambition is to do the Novice at Gatcombe one day, which probably won't happen!), but I know enough to see a bad stride or a horse that isn't right. I also know that people and horses aren't machines, and mistakes do happen.. Isn't that what XC is all about though? The foot perfect round is so rare.. And the best thing about mistakes is we can learn from them, whether we are a pro going round a 4* or someone like me bumbling round Pre-Nervous..
 
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kirstyhen said:
I think SpottedCat has hit the nail on the head.

How many of us sit at a competition venue with the 'expert' behind us and pray they would shut up? Why should anyone want to hear our own opinions anymore than we want to hear their's? Like SC said, with your mates, fine!
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OK so I just wrote a thoroughly thought out and beautifully phrased reply and my computer lost it :mad:.

Basically how many times have you thought about criticising someone's performance in a competition, desisted, then realised that their mother/trainer/ex-bouncer boyfriend is sitting behind you? That is what this forum is like and why I rarely participate in these debates.

Once they descend into gossiping or tittle-tattle or nitpicking criticism of a rider or horse's technique I choose not to comment. If I post a video of me competing I expect and welcome (constructive ;)) criticism. However we are pulling apart riders who have neither asked for, nor are likely to ask for our advice. Yes we all put ourselves in the public domain by choosing to compete but I would be heartbroken if I thought that people were discussing me or my horse openly with this degree of animosity.

Yes we can all pass comment on a 4* round without having ridden one but I generally choose to do it in private, not on an open internet forum. I admit that it is easy for people to hide behind a username and think they can say what they like, but like SpottedCat I would be extremely embarrassed to be connected with some of the comments made on here. I also think that there are very few people on here (definitely not including myself) that know the difference in feel between a 3* and 4* horse and none that can judge the difference correctly from a collection of photos and a few youtube clips.

My original reply said it better and made better points but I think the gist of it is that these sort of debates make me increasingly uneasy and I choose in the main to stand back.
 
Saratoga said:
But do people break down what they are watching? See how the rider is sitting, what they are doing with their hands, how their bodyweight is positioned at certain questions, whether the horse is ridden in forward and positive, or sat back on their hocks with the rider waiting for the fence, and whether that approach was the best for that horse and that question in particular? Etc etc etc.
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I certainly do, I have a very analytical way of thinking in general, which can be a help as much as a hinderance. I think it is possible to have valid critical observations without having ridden at a certain level BUT the vast majority of people do not have the wealth of experience to back up those critiscisms, and by that I mean been involved with, trained to or even assisted in getting a horse or rider to that level.
 
Gamebird said:
Basically how many times have you thought about criticising someone's performance in a competition, desisted, then realised that their mother/trainer/ex-bouncer boyfriend is sitting behind you?
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Haha unfortunately what is in my head usually comes out, I was watching the WHP's in the first year RIHS was at Hickstead and Alice Bamford was in my sister's class, I had no idea who she was as I usually went to jumping shows when they went poncing about.
I slagged off her riding (which to be fair was shocking!) and my mum kept kicking me in the leg. Only when the lady next to me (Lady Bamford) went to greet Alice out of the ring did my mum belt me round the head and tell what I had done :D
 
I can relate to those that say they don't participate in the criticism, I haven't posted on any of the other threads, but it doesn't mean I don't read them and learn from them.

That's what this forum is all about, learning. I was fortunate to have good people around me when growing up and was encouraged to evaluate each and every horse that jumps a fence in front of me even from the age of 9, no matter what the level, and pick out the best and worst bits of each one. I really do think this has been invaluable to me.

I believe people should be actively encouraged to do the same. I wonder how many people will go back and watch replays of the horses and riders talked about on here, and see the good and bad bits for themselves that they perhaps didn't see the first time round?
 
Saratoga said:
I can relate to those that say they don't participate in the criticism, I haven't posted on any of the other threads, but it doesn't mean I don't read them and learn from them.

That's what this forum is all about, learning. I was fortunate to have good people around me and was encouraged to evaluate each and every horse that jumps a fence in front of me, no matter what the level, and pick out the best and worst bits of each one. I really do think this has been invaluable to me.

I believe people should be actively encouraged to do the same. I wonder how many people will go back and watch replays of the horses and riders talked about on here, and see the good and bad bits for themselves that they perhaps didn't see the first time round?
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Oh yes. I watch them, think about them, form opinions, discuss with my friends, re-evaluate, promptly forget what I thought last time and come up with a totally different opinion the next time. Hopefully this is called 'education' :). What I choose not to do is post any of my uncomplimentary opinions on an open internet forum.
 
Gamebird said:
Basically how many times have you thought about criticising someone's performance in a competition, desisted, then realised that their mother/trainer/ex-bouncer boyfriend is sitting behind you? That is what this forum is like and why I rarely participate in these debates.
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I did the Dengie Qualifiers on Henry and with it being indoors it was all too much for him, he jumped round but it wasn't pretty and we had two stop and two rails. I was gutted...

...Even more so when I watched the video back and the lady sat in front of my OH slagged my horse off the entire time :(
 
From speaking with riders who ARE up there, the general consensus I have always got is that they are interested in seeing what is written on here, correct or not, as at least it is in the open...then, if they so choose and can be arsed, they can defend themselves.

To be worried for a horse and rider combination because the horse likes to leave a leg does not necessitate me having to have ridden around a 4* XC course. I don't slag people's riding off on here, having had it done to me it isn't nice, I would rather say nothing at all, but with the ACM debate my mind was made up when I was watching the live footage and so I voiced it. Had I had the opportunity to say the same to Oli Townend then I would not have hesitated to do so - no hiding behind a user name for me, I am pretty recognisable :)
 
Gamebird said:
Basically how many times have you thought about criticising someone's performance in a competition, desisted, then realised that their mother/trainer/ex-bouncer boyfriend is sitting behind you? That is what this forum is like and why I rarely participate in these debates.
.
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Lol at this - at Windsor one year I was extolling the talents of Peter Charles to the people I was with as he was jumping, and going on and on about his amazing hands and unbelievable "feel" ...

... and I was :o:o:o the next time I saw him and he had heard all about it from his connections standing not too far away - only I don't think he was talking about the same sort of feel I was (and this was years and years ago in case anyone goes running off to Mrs Charles :D)
 
Echo Spotted_Cat and Gamebird - and just to add;

If the threads were educational and constructive (and I do believe that some of them start off with this in mind) then I would have much less of a problem with it. But, and it's a big 'but', there is always a comment that gets a bit close to the bone, then someone else will build on that, then someone else gets a bit braver, and before we know it the thread has spiralled - yet again - into (as I put it earlier) the HHO post-big event hysteria.

I fail to see how that is educational or constructive for anyone - in particular the riders and owners who undoubtedly will either read it or will be fully informed about it.

So no, I don't think you need to have competed at a level to be able to comment. What I do think you need is some tact, understanding and old fashioned good manners.
 
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