Do you say anything if you notice a "problem" with a livery?

[WindyStacks]

I'm new at my yard and I've noticed a lot of bitching already (egads!) - obviously there are some people you get on better than others.

The other day I noticed my new friend's horse is very uneven through the pelvis, so I broached the subject saying "tell me to stfu if you want to" - and she said she was happy I'd noticed, most don't - and yes, she's had the vet take a look and the vet is happy.

However... there's a livery whom I think is displaying early stages of navicular - he's her pride and joy but she's quite "traditional" in methodology. She's also in the thick of the bitching. Should I voice my concerns? She's saying the horse is lazy btw and applying the whip... Or should I keep my big gob shut?

 

[be positive]

I think in the first instance you had concerns and voiced them, it would be a fairly obvious thing to notice, it was well received.
The second scenario is different, early navicular could also be many other things so I would leave it unless you are asked for your opinion and even then unless you are either a vet or farrier I would not say you think it is early navicular I would be much less specific and say it looks a bit footy or something similar, by mentioning navicular you may well put the owner into denial and cause her to delay getting the vet for fear of the dreaded word beginning with n which many will believe is untreatable.

 

[Casey76]

I suppose it depends on how comfortable you are about bringing things up like that. Navicular can be quite subjective.

On my yard we have a lot of different personality types, but I'd like to think we all watch out for each others horses and point out if something wasn't right.

I know it wasn't long after my friend brought her horse to the yard and I said "Oh does X always toe point when she's standing" I got they reply "Oh yes she always stands like that." To me I've pointed out something which to me isn't "normal" but I'm not going to push and say "I think your mare has navicular."

I've had it pointed out to me when my youngster wasn't level in the field, I've sent a text to another friend asking if it was normal for her mare to be short on a hind leg in the field.

We are a very firendly yard - I wouldn't say we are tension free all of the time, but generally we are all quite nice (even if we do have a few nutters )

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I'm new at my yard and I've noticed a lot of bitching already (egads!) - obviously there are some people you get on better than others.

The other day I noticed my new friend's horse is very uneven through the pelvis, so I broached the subject saying "tell me to stfu if you want to" - and she said she was happy I'd noticed, most don't - and yes, she's had the vet take a look and the vet is happy.

However... there's a livery whom I think is displaying early stages of navicular - he's her pride and joy but she's quite "traditional" in methodology. She's also in the thick of the bitching. Should I voice my concerns? She's saying the horse is lazy btw and applying the whip... Or should I keep my big gob shut?

First of all the pelvis - I would get a horse Osteo out not the vet to check
second yes I would say something, at least you can have a clear conscience if it turns out it has and nothing done about it. Will put you in a better light that you are observant .

 

[PorkChop]

Feel free to ignore me because I don't keep my horses at a yard with others!

I wouldn't say anything, if I was asked my opinion that's different, but a lot of people take offense with observations on their horses - but also never say "I told you so"!

 

[ester]

not unless asked or there be a major comprimising of welfare.

 

[ameeyal]

Because you are new to the yard I would keep my mouth shut { unless I was asked} you have already voiced your opinion about your "new" friends horse, so you don't want to be classed a " know it all"

 

[WindyStacks]

I thin you're right - for the time-being I shall remain mute. I saw her today and she wAs a right grump - speaking up will start a war and as someone mentioned I'll be called a know-it-all.

I think the issue will come to a head pretty soon anyway as symptoms have come on fast and have been witnessed by a few... So I'm sure I'm not the only one with niggling doubts!

 

[Auslander]

First of all the pelvis - I would get a horse Osteo out not the vet to check

Bodyworkers can only legally treat an animal on veterinary referral, and their insurance is invalid if they don't work this way. Surprised you don't know this!

 

[chocolategirl]

Bodyworkers can only legally treat an animal on veterinary referral, and their insurance is invalid if they don't work this way. Surprised you don't know this!

Really?! Ooooops I didn't know this. I have had a fully qualified osteo out to mine many times over the years and never following a vets referral? He works wonders with them and they always feel better afterwards.

 

[Auslander]

Really?! Ooooops I didn't know this. I have had a fully qualified osteo out to mine many times over the years and never following a vets referral? He works wonders with them and they always feel better afterwards.

I'm not saying they don't do a fab job - just that legally, they are supposed to work on veterinary referral!

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you'll see the bit about physios/osteos/chiros http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-g.../treatment-of-animals-by-unqualified-persons/

 

[Goldenstar]

I tend to keep my own counsel however I am not on a livery yard and not faced with horses in front of me all the time .
I think I would struggle if I had to look at not right horses all the time.

 

[Leg_end]

Think it depends on the person you are speaking to. My old YO told me B didn't look right and she was right so I'm grateful for that as it meant we caught his issues early. I'm of the opinion that a third party view is helpful but I take each one on its own merits

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Bodyworkers can only legally treat an animal on veterinary referral, and their insurance is invalid if they don't work this way. Surprised you don't know this!

That also depends if they are insured first, as FWIW I do know that, same if you start to treat your horse after vets initial treatment and you were not told to, things go bad your not covered on Insurance

Even if you carry on after care and things go wrong your not covered.


I never get a vet out if my horses back is out, it has nothing to do with referral or not. MY horses are not insured and when I need a back specialist out I get them out.


I mean serious I have seen what they do for a back that is out, and the horse was more or less the same till osteo came out.
Same with human osteo I do not go to doctor with back ached I go to osteo its what they are trained in.

You above all followed my story on my humerus, well I got the vet out after the accident and asked him to check my boy over, only the gashes and wounds were treated. When they said I could get back on I asked them to check his back and pelvis,they said the back was fine and no reaction to pressure. So I get on and you know the rest, 7 months off work - plate in my arm- £ 6000 out of pocket for yard covering.
Not being able to drive my car - ride my horse - drive my pony visit my parents after their accident. So No I will always now use Osteo....................

Like my situation where I have not ridden since my accident in Nov, I am going to get on him for the first time in July but will get the osteo out first before I do.



Same like a livery here they need osteo they usually go direct to osteo, Its different if you start treating an injury like cuts / kicks etc then yes I would call vet first.

 

[Auslander]

That also depends if they are insured first, as FWIW I do know that, same if you start to treat your horse after vets initial treatment and you were not told to, things go bad your not covered on Insurance

Even if you carry on after care and things go wrong your not covered.


I never get a vet out if my horses back is out, it has nothing to do with referral or not. MY horses are not insured and when I need a back specialist out I get them out.


I mean serious I have seen what they do for a back that is out, and the horse was more or less the same till osteo came out.
Same with human osteo I do not go to doctor with back ached I go to osteo its what they are trained in.

You above all followed my story on my humerus, well I got the vet out after the accident and asked him to check my boy over, only the gashes and wounds were treated. When they said I could get back on I asked them to check his back and pelvis,they said the back was fine and no reaction to pressure. So I get on and you know the rest, 7 months off work - plate in my arm- £ 6000 out of pocket for yard covering.
Not being able to drive my car - ride my horse - drive my pony visit my parents after their accident. So No I will always now use Osteo....................

Like my situation where I have not ridden since my accident in Nov, I am going to get on him for the first time in July but will get the osteo out first before I do.



Same like a livery here they need osteo they usually go direct to osteo, Its different if you start treating an injury like cuts / kicks etc then yes I would call vet first.

It's nothing to do with whether your horses are insured or not, or whether they have sore backs, cuts, whatever. It is against the law for a paraprofessional (physio/chiro/osteo) to diagnose or treat a horse without veterinary referral. This can be as simple as them giving the vet a quick call to ask permission - but if they have not at least spoken to the vet - they are breaking the law. It's going on all over the country, and the RCVS are rightly concerned about it.

Of course those who choose to use people who don't act on veterinary referral are going to argue, but there's no getting away from the fact that it's not lawful. This is not to say that the professional of choice is not very good at what they do, and will probably treat 1000's of horse and never have an issue - but if they get caught, or damage a horse - they will be in a whole heap of trouble, and the owner of the horse won't have a leg to stand on legally.

 

[be positive]

It's nothing to do with whether your horses are insured or not, or whether they have sore backs, cuts, whatever. It is against the law for a paraprofessional (physio/chiro/osteo) to diagnose or treat a horse without veterinary referral. This can be as simple as them giving the vet a quick call to ask permission - but if they have not at least spoken to the vet - they are breaking the law. It's going on all over the country, and the RCVS are rightly concerned about it.

Of course those who choose to use people who don't act on veterinary referral are going to argue, but there's no getting away from the fact that it's not lawful. This is not to say that the professional of choice is not very good at what they do, and will probably treat 1000's of horse and never have an issue - but if they get caught, or damage a horse - they will be in a whole heap of trouble, and the owner of the horse won't have a leg to stand on legally.

I agree, this is something that is being missed by many of the body workers out there now, many of who are very good but many are questionable in how they operate.
The person treating the horse will not have insurance if anything goes wrong, it will be void if they do not have permission to treat, my physio always gets vets permission, a phone call is enough in most cases as she is well respected and will refer back to the vet if the horse fails to respond to treatment or is lame when assessed. Once she has had permission given it is on record and she will come out for further treatments when required or for a check up, all treatment is recorded and sent to the vets.

 

[Auslander]

I agree, this is something that is being missed by many of the body workers out there now, many of who are very good but many are questionable in how they operate.
The person treating the horse will not have insurance if anything goes wrong, it will be void if they do not have permission to treat, my physio always gets vets permission, a phone call is enough in most cases as she is well respected and will refer back to the vet if the horse fails to respond to treatment or is lame when assessed. Once she has had permission given it is on record and she will come out for further treatments when required or for a check up, all treatment is recorded and sent to the vets.

This exactly - my physio started work on my horse over two years ago, when my vet requested it. She doesn't have to ask every time she comes out, as the initial referral was enough. She reports back to my vet each time, and highlights any issues.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It's nothing to do with whether your horses are insured or not, or whether they have sore backs, cuts, whatever. It is against the law for a paraprofessional (physio/chiro/osteo) to diagnose or treat a horse without veterinary referral. This can be as simple as them giving the vet a quick call to ask permission - but if they have not at least spoken to the vet - they are breaking the law. It's going on all over the country, and the RCVS are rightly concerned about it.

Of course those who choose to use people who don't act on veterinary referral are going to argue, but there's no getting away from the fact that it's not lawful. This is not to say that the professional of choice is not very good at what they do, and will probably treat 1000's of horse and never have an issue - but if they get caught, or damage a horse - they will be in a whole heap of trouble, and the owner of the horse won't have a leg to stand on legally.

Well In the last 46 years I have never ever asked a vets permission to get a chiro out, so I will not comment about the legality of it, its not legal to glance at cctv while driving but we do- its against the law to eat and drink pop while driving but we do.

So I will continue and phone my Osteo this week to get them out as I am not paying £ 45 for a vet to come out to ask his permission then a further £ 80 for the chiro.


Its one thing actually getting an osteo first time to diagnose its another to use them after a vets initial where they have viewed the horse and passed comment regardless of if they found an issue or not.

I will not ask their permission but if I chose to notify them I tell them I am getting osteo out I do not ask their permission

 

[Zero00000]

If it really bothers you that much, but you don't feel you can talk to this person, how about printing off a letter to her, (Print so handwriting cant be recognised) pop it on her tack box or stable door, somewhere she will see it.

That way she will have this pointed out to her, but there is no-one to point the finger at.

 

[Auslander]

Well In the last 46 years I have never ever asked a vets permission to get a chiro out, so I will not comment about the legality of it, its not legal to glance at cctv while driving but we do- its against the law to eat and drink pop while driving but we do.

So I will continue and phone my Osteo this week to get them out as I am not paying £ 45 for a vet to come out to ask his permission then a further £ 80 for the chiro.


Its one thing actually getting an osteo first time to diagnose its another to use them after a vets initial where they have viewed the horse and passed comment regardless of if they found an issue or not.

I will not ask their permission but if I chose to notify them I tell them I am getting osteo out I do not ask their permission

Fine. It's your choice - just so long as you are aware that they are breaking the law by doing so.

 

[ester]

I do think most vets are pretty good with these things unless they really don't know the horse/owner though? Certainly in my experience anyway.

Recent experience having moved house (so vet didn't know me beyond vaccinating Frank) ' I want xxx to visit my horse, he is old, not quite sound and I think it best to remove any muscle issues before I get you to come and look at him more expansively. Vet agrees, and physio agrees that vet should prob see horse to rule a couple of things out. Horse actually much much sounder post physio though still seen by vet to put owners mind at rest .

 

[WindyStacks]

I wouldn't leave an anonymous note, to me that seems cowardly and passive aggressive - you know, like if someone at work has bo and "impulse" is left in the desk.

I either need to put up or shut up, if I talk to her it'll be face-to-face.

 

[Orangehorse]

Re the vet's referral. This is because the horse might have a condition that the vet is aware of that might be made worse by a back/oesto, etc. etc. person. Any responsible body worker would require the vet's details and check that it is OK to treat.
This can be simply a telephone call from the owner to the surgery saything that you have called in a ??? and is that OK. Mine usually ask who it is so that they can then advise other owners who might be interested. My vets also say that a specialist is often better than the vet.

However, for a horse with a problem it is always wise to get a vet first for a whole body examination to get a diagnois. At best you might end up paying for treatment that can never improve the horse becuase there is acutually something else causing the problem. For example, the horse being treated for a bad back when in fact the problem was bad feet.

 

[PolarSkye]

So I will continue and phone my Osteo this week to get them out as I am not paying £ 45 for a vet to come out to ask his permission then a further £ 80 for the chiro.

Vet doesn't need to come out to give a referral - a phone exchange between your vet and the chiro should be free.

Just a question - do you like and respect your vet?

P

 

[magicmoose]

I will not ask their permission but if I chose to notify them I tell them I am getting osteo out I do not ask their permission

It's not you that needs to ask permission, it's the bodyworker. I wouldn't have someone lay hands on my horse if they started off by illegally cutting corners like that; it's not professional and to me is a red flag about how cavalier they are about their work.

 

[LegOn]

I think I would 'try' hold my tongue but it can be really hard especially when you are looking out for the horse...

Is there a YO or YM you could suggest it to that might suggest it to this person so it seems just to be coming from a welfare of the horse point of view? If she is a bitchy type, she might take it coming from you as just a randomer sticking their nose in.

I find it really hard though not to say stuff so I can see where you are coming from... sometime when you do say things, even to friends - even to those you ASK for advice, it can be a minefield of sensitivity that people just can react wrongly too despite good intentions.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes, when I've seen that a horse looks unlevel, I have mentioned it to the owner. I make sure that I am pretty friendly with the owner and try to create context for my observation within a small-talk sort of conversation, so as not to be some random livery coming out with this stuff out of the blue, which can go over like a lead balloon.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

When I was in one yard, the father told me as a senior person he would expect me to tell them if they were doing anything wrong [as they were newbies I assume], so when a year later I pointed out that starving the horse and turning out in winter with no rug was downright cruel [I might have been slightly more diplomatic], father was none too pleased, as by that time they were quite experienced, yes daughter realised that horse drank less water if they did not top up the [small] bucket, but hey its so hard to carry a full bucket every day! And 13 yo daughter needs a lie in every Saturday [vodka related], so it would probably be OK to leave pony standing in stable just once a week, [ proof of the pudding it had not died or colicked].
I would be very careful of becoming "Miss Know-it-all", I was rarely asked for advice, and when I was it was rarely taken as it meant changing the routine................ extra work/a bit of attention to detail.
Needless to say when there was an emergency , I was the first port of call ......... the girl in charge day to day had been to college, but did not know what "cast " meant, but after getting her pony up on four legs, she was duly grateful [yes, she had passed the exams]