Do You Smack your horse?

On the rare occasions he gets a bit stroppy and pushy with me I'll slap his neck or shoulder with the flat of my hand while telling him off. I NEVER hit his face or head and I never hit him with a whip or other blunt instrument.

Fortunately, he is very attuned to voice commands and tones of voice so he understands when his behaviour has been inappropriate.

If you do hit your horse it must be instant, ie within 10 seconds of the offence, otherwise s/he can't associate the punishment with the "offence"
 
Ellen Durow said:
On the rare occasions he gets a bit stroppy and pushy with me I'll slap his neck or shoulder with the flat of my hand while telling him off. I NEVER hit his face or head and I never hit him with a whip or other blunt instrument.

Fortunately, he is very attuned to voice commands and tones of voice so he understands when his behaviour has been inappropriate.

If you do hit your horse it must be instant, ie within 10 seconds of the offence, otherwise s/he can't associate the punishment with the "offence"
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It must be instant yes - but not 10 seconds later. .1 of a second is more like it!!
 
I havn't yet, but wouldn't be afraid to, if need be. He has never put a foot wrong, so have never needed to/ I would only do so if it was a dangerous situation. Cant even name one of the top of my head, but will keep ye updated. Maybe like if he wasn;t keeping to the edge of the road and a huge truck was coming, then maybe, but it would have to be drastic. xx
 
Coming into this really late and have not read all of the thread so excuse me if i am repeating anything!
There are instances where a sharp shock of a slap will stop bad behaviour in its tracks and avert a nasty accident! When we first got our Shire (now sadly gone) he was a bit on the bargy side, he wasnt nasty but being a big horse would try and walk through you and nearly trapped me by the gate a few times, a hard slap on his chest and and saying "NO!!" only a couple of times put him in his place, and he started to respect my space! I would like to add that we had over ten years with him, driving and riding and he was the best horse ever, never shy of me , but a big horse like that allowed to get away with bad manners can become a danger to its handler!
 
fburton said:
Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking can be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to reduce my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth trying to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.
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Obviously you are right when you say that smacking can be effective in stopping a behaviour, so in that I am wrong, specifically. However, what I was trying to say albeit impatiently, was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse. I am impressed by the rest of your post which I feel accurately describes many scenarios. I know you shouldn't say never, but, I don't always follow what you should do, so in this regard, I am content to say never in respect of smacking. In the long term, I think this is more beneficial, to both horse and person.
 
nich said:
No I don't. I do use tone of voice, which I would like to learn how to replace. E.g putting sudocrem on the sore udders of my SI mare, very rarely she might lift a leg to threaten. I 'growl', leave my hand in place, and say 'good girl' and remove my hand when she puts the leg down. We have 3, none get 'hit' and you could classify them as sport horse (1 ish, 1 Andalusian, 1 1/4 shire 3/4 tb). They have all been trained with ground work. They aren't perfect,but nor am I. One day I was leading my 2 mares, one either side of me. I wasn't alert to their non verbal communication with each other and suddenly the dominant one leant across to snap at the junior mare, biting me on the nipple in the process! I stopped, shook the lead rope at her, backed her up and told her off. My fault as I should have seen it coming. She hasn't tried it again though.
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this is an interesting thought process on your part.

the horse BIT you on the chest. (at face height for a smaller person/child) It was indifferent to your presence. It was dominating the situation and calling the shots about where you went and how you got there and you think you were in the wrong.

In return for living in penury and being a slave to my horses I really feel it is reasonable that they don't damage me and that anyone should be able to bring them in from the field without being expert in horse language or tough enough to stand being bitten.

In your place I would have absolutely hit the offending horse - It would have been slapped with the end of the lead rope probably, the whole scenario would have probably been a bit messy with a lot of shouting and interesting language, but horse would be under no illusion that it acts with some respect around people in future.
 
siennamum said:
this is an interesting thought process on your part.

the horse BIT you on the chest. (at face height for a smaller person/child) It was indifferent to your presence. It was dominating the situation and calling the shots about where you went and how you got there and you think you were in the wrong.

In return for living in penury and being a slave to my horses I really feel it is reasonable that they don't damage me and that anyone should be able to bring them in from the field without being expert in horse language or tough enough to stand being bitten.

In your place I would have absolutely hit the offending horse - It would have been slapped with the end of the lead rope probably, the whole scenario would have probably been a bit messy with a lot of shouting and interesting language, but horse would be under no illusion that it acts with some respect around people in future.
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siennamum, I'd understand you being upset at getting bitten, but if this happened where the horse has bitten by mistake as I understand the post, would your reaction be more out of vengance, or would you be teaching it not to make mistakes in future.

Nich is reaction seems more in line with my thinking in as much as the horse has stepped out of line by exhibiting such behaviour when Nich, the leader is present, and that horse has no business behavinig like that when she is in the equasion.
 
Pale Rider said:
siennamum, I'd understand you being upset at getting bitten, but if this happened where the horse has bitten by mistake as I understand the post, would your reaction be more out of vengance, or would you be teaching it not to make mistakes in future.

Nich is reaction seems more in line with my thinking in as much as the horse has stepped out of line by exhibiting such behaviour when Nich, the leader is present, and that horse has no business behavinig like that when she is in the equasion.
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Education and vengeance because I would be mad!

When I am leading them in, I am in charge, no arguments!
 
I do not have to explain why, nor will I . But I do and still do.

When the situation comes and a smack is needed I do with voice commands.

My horses rarely need it,but when a livery wont stand yanks his foot away when picking feet out, lashes out at me threatens to bite, threatens to kick horses when I bring them in. Then yes.
A quick smack on shoulder with back of hand its used,

I use in those situation and others its never without justification, and ALWAYS when the horse(s) showed bad manners. I am a stickler for good manners. When they are in my space and under my handling, I wont tolerate bad manners, they have 23 hrs to do what they want.
 
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Pale Rider said:
Obviously you are right when you say that smacking can be effective in stopping a behaviour, so in that I am wrong, specifically. However, what I was trying to say albeit impatiently, was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse..
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This is absolute nonsense. People comment on the fabulous relationship I have with my horses. I never tie them up to do anything with them. I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's my choice as an adult so no comments please.)

And I have, at the right moment for the right thing, hit every one of them at one time or another (rarely, but when it will achieve a result).

My shetland used to nibble, as all two year olds will. He was scratched on the nose and I massaged his lips, which he adored. But even so, one day he went to bite me, and I smacked his nose hard. Once.

He never bit again. At five I sold him to a home with children where he would have more fun than I could give him and the vet who saw him at his new place commented on what a beautifully behaved pony he was for a shetland.

Judicious use of physical correction (hitting) DOES work and DOES NOT destroy your relationship with your horse.
 
cptrayes said:
This is absolute nonsense. People comment on the fabulous relationship I have with my horses. I never tie them up to do anything with them. I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's my choice as an adult so no comments please.)

And I have, at the right moment for the right thing, hit every one of them at one time or another (rarely, but when it will achieve a result).

My shetland used to nibble, as all two year olds will. He was scratched on the nose and I massaged his lips, which he adored. But even so, one day he went to bite me, and I smacked his nose hard. Once.

He never bit again. At five I sold him to a home with children where he would have more fun than I could give him and the vet who saw him at his new place commented on what a beautifully behaved pony he was for a shetland.

Judicious use of physical correction (hitting) DOES work and DOES NOT destroy your relationship with your horse.
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Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
 
Pale Rider said:
Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
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there is a difference between slapping a horse around and giving it a smack and saying *NO* or *bad boy *
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse..
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A "hitter" is a strong word for a method of discipline, there is a huge difference between a smack and hit which refers to hitting with an object IMO

You cannot say it causes, you can say it might cause.
You state that when you have no clue of the situation and how the individual horse reacts to a smack. And to say it always is detrimental to the relationship is total poppycock.:rolleyes:


I smacked my mare before we had a fantastic relationship, it would take too long to explain all the things she did for me including saving me from a dunking. She trusted me 100% of the time and it showed in the situations we met in our lives when we met life of death situations.

That mare and I were so close not even steaming us like a stamp off a letter would separate us.

You are entitled to your views about smacking but to tell us here that it will like your word is gospel well its not.


There are thousands of horses that have been reprimanded in this way and have turned out 100% better for it.

Maybe if they brought back smacking kids on the bum there would not be so many unruly ones around. A smack on the bum is IMO the best way to get respect after the initial warning. I know first hand excuse the pun lol
 
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cptrayes said:
I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's my choice as an adult so no comments please.)
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Sorry had to post after you said not too, you are bad for doing that , that is not professional CP shame on you :p

We do this for donkey farrier goes in trims her feet in the field totally loose she stands there no problem.:)
 
Pale Rider said:
Well thats it then Cptrayes, Leviathan agrees with you, therefore I win hands down, there is no recovery for you from this fatal blow.:D:D:D
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What a childish comment:rolleyes: you really do surpasses all others.

It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with a member.
This is my views on the subject, as I am sure that 75% at least on this forum has smacked their horse one time or another. Are you going to preach to everyone on this forum or just a select few??

You defy reality with your comments sometimes.

In our world (reality) there are times when discipline is needed. If you had practiced you sugary ways on some of the horses I have come across you would either have been kicked to death or have a scar for life. Hey ho what ever floats your boat. I bet in your world if it does not have perfect manners you shoot it.



He stands alone. The World of The Paler Rider, where unicorns play and the albatross thrives - he has the powers to rule. If you don't obey or question his ways your court marshaled then - shot.
 
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Leviathan said:
My horses rarely need it,but when a livery wont stand yanks his foot away when picking feet out, lashes out at me threatens to bite, threatens to kick horses when I bring them in. Then yes.
A quick smack on shoulder with back of hand its used,

I use in those situation and others its never without justification, and ALWAYS when the horse(s) showed bad manners. I am a stickler for good manners. When they are in my space and under my handling, I wont tolerate bad manners, they have 23 hrs to do what they want.
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It's like that on many livery yards.

However....I say that all these 'problems' you've outlined could be avoided if each of the offending horses had their individual foibles addressed.

My approach would be to create a relationship with each horse so that they are respectful and compliant with me. Each of them then becomes reliable to handle and, as a bonus, better behaved as a group.

I worked with a horse which kicked out at others in the stable block. No-one could bring horses past this horse without fear of being kicked out at. I worked with the people concerned and helped them all to help the horse understand that it must be respectful of each of them when they approached. Each person learned to be assertive and calm when approaching the horse, and each of them taught the horse to move away when they walked purposefully toward its quarters.

Then each of them went about the yard and every time they had to pass the horse, they'd cause it to yield quietly and without aggression. Then, when they approached with another horse, the 'offending' horse saw them, not their horse, as someone who should be respected.

The kicking stopped.
 
Pale Rider said:
Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
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I really can't make up my mind about you, PR. Half the time I think you're deliberately winding us all up, the other half I think you're arrogant, intolerant and incapable of seeing any other point of view to your own.

I, like everyone else who's been on this thread with a sensible reply, occasionally give my horse a slap - upside the nose within a nanosecond of a threat to nip, coupled with a "No bites!" command. This is the only transgression nowadays - the REAL biting, threatening to kick, barging, rearing when being led etc have disappeared - she knows how to behave around humans, whoever they are. So, the threat to nip is the tombstone of her old behaviour which she came to me with.

We CAN live with the fact that you don't hit, but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs (oh yes, and your complete inability to give direct answers to direct questions), not the fact that you won't hit.
 
Pale Rider said:
Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
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I'm quite happy to live with it PR, and so are my well behaved boys, but I will not allow you to go unchallenged telling people that they will ruin their relationship if they slap their horse occasionally.
 
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Leviathan said:
Sorry had to post after you said not too, you are bad for doing that , that is not professional CP shame on you :p

We do this for donkey farrier goes in trims her feet in the field totally loose she stands there no problem.:)
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I even put their feet up on a stand (one at a time, of course :D ) If a horse won't let me pull its mane without tying up it doesn't get pulled, but there is nothing else I can think of that I can't do without restraining my horses. I also pick off painful mud fever scabs (rarely need to) and treat injuries (too often, they are boisterious boys with each other :o). I must have such a bad relationship with them, though, because I've smacked them all :p

I'm not saying this about my relationship with them to boast (because I don't actually think it's particularly clever, most people could do it), I am saying it to tell people that they will NOT destroy their relationship with their horse if they smack it when it can understand why you have done it.
 
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diamonddogs said:
I really can't make up my mind about you, PR. Half the time I think you're deliberately winding us all up, the other half I think you're arrogant, intolerant and incapable of seeing any other point of view to your own.

I, like everyone else who's been on this thread with a sensible reply, occasionally give my horse a slap - upside the nose within a nanosecond of a threat to nip, coupled with a "No bites!" command. This is the only transgression nowadays - the REAL biting, threatening to kick, barging, rearing when being led etc have disappeared - she knows how to behave around humans, whoever they are. So, the threat to nip is the tombstone of her old behaviour which she came to me with.

We CAN live with the fact that you don't hit, but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs (oh yes, and your complete inability to give direct answers to direct questions), not the fact that you won't hit.
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It is deliberate, :D

""but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs "" Not everyone it seems, :)
 
Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA? Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse? I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement. Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you. I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around. I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have! The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me. But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it? Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses? I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately. Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?
 
cptrayes said:
Then it is also pathetic and given your unwillingness to answer any question put to you it makes you no better than a troll and a lot less entertaining.
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PSML:D

My mare I lost ground tied too I could walk out the school and come back, the boy is in training to ground tie.
Also the mare I lost was so good to shoe she had an invisible rope most of the time.

Sounds like you have a horrid relationship with your horses CP they don't trust you don't like you and they are borderline neglected as you don't care enough to tie them up.

As for

I also pick off painful mud fever scabs (rarely need to) and treat injuries
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Don't give us that old pony you sedate them first, I know you do because the horses mistrust you so much.:p

My boy is America Quater Horse his dad is Segehill Gold, unlike his dad and his mum ( late mare ) he is a little git sometimes and needs reprimanding.
 
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Re quarter horses - I think that's a sweeping generalisation (not to say that PR's quarter horse isn't a little sweety...). Some quarter horses are like Ferrari's, and prized for that. They're not easy at all, but they're "honest". I have a friend who has a passion for that style of quarter horse, I must admit he doesn't hit them and wouldn't do anything as direct as smack them on the face for biting - particularly if it was his stallion. The approach would be more along the lines of redirection.

I suppose this thread shows just how passionate people can get when they feel challenged? I mean that about both sides of the fence. Also that more than one thing can work with horses, whatever individuals feel about how fair or right it is.

I used to be of the smacking for biting, growling, shouting frame of mind. And I would raise my whip away from my horse for a "corrective" tap/smack when I felt that my horse was deliberately disobeying my aids. More training and a wider exposure to other approaches to horse training, which are far from being in the Fluffy Bunny category, have changed that. I can honestly say that I haven't smacked my horse with my whip to reinforce a ridden aid for probably 8 years. Smacking to reprimand has been even longer than that. I'm not preaching, I'm not accusing anyone else of doing anything wrong, but I am aware that things can be done differently - with any horse.

One thing that makes me uncomfortable with the direct physical reprimand is the room for misunderstanding. How confident are we that our aids are never confusing for our horses? Their senses are so much more effective than ours, they see so much further, if they spot something worrying that we can't and it bothers them, is if fairer to redirect their attention with or without smacking them with a whip?

Some time ago I had my little old gelding on the yard for a groom and a hoof trim. He was being a complete pain in the posterior, shuffling, swinging his bum about, waving his head. He's not like that normally, but just sometimes he can be very restless, and it was extremely frustrating when I had things to do. I think many people would have given him what is often called a "growl" and a "smack" as a reprimand for being... disrespectful... Anyway, I decided to take him the other side of the gate into the field and work him round a bit, then return to the yard to offer him a resting place at the tie-up area (as per Mark Rashid and many others). As soon as he got on the grass he let out a huge, pitiful sigh, stretched out and peed for what seemed like hours. I felt I had been a bit dense, back we went, and of course he stood like a dream. If I'd smacked him and growled at him I would have been acting purely on my perception of what was going on and not really giving him a fair chance I think.
 
Spring Feather said:
Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA? Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse? I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement. Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you. I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around. I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have! The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me. But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it? Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses? I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately. Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?
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Glad you like QH's, I do have Arabs and PB Arabs as well. I do have every other breed you can think of come here though.:)
 
Spring Feather said:
Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA?
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sorry to nit Pick SP
don't you mean AQH

A American
Q Quater
H Horse
A Association

My AQH is so clever, always looks of ways to get rugs down, work things out etc he is like a squirrel, he works things out to get what he wants, that said he is a git too. He is like Johnny Five in Short Circuit always wants input thrives on input.
 
Oh maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation on my part, on this thread. I thought by 'smack' this meant people smacking with their hand or elbow. If it's about whips then I've never whipped a horse for well over 30 years and never felt the need to, but I have thrown rubber buckets at some if they are causing trouble in the field which could likely end in injury. I have dug my elbows into their necks when they get a bit bolshy in-hand and I will give them a bit of a boot in the ribs if they aren't paying attention to me under saddle. If a horse went to bite me then yes I would absolutely smack it with my hand or thump it with my fist on the neck. As said before, I probably give some form of physical reprimand maybe twice in a year. Handling the amount of horses I do on a daily basis, versus the one-horse-owner, that probably equates to one smack to one horse every 25 years!
 
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