Do You Smack your horse?

Wagtail said:
I have to agree with the senseless whipping some horses get after refusing a jump. The whip is not there to punish a horse, it is there as a back up to the leg. I actually find it is the most useful when teaching lateral movements. I use a schooling whip either to tickle behind the leg or to press behind the leg in a more constant pressure. I don't use it to hit.
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Ah yes - tickling the leg ( I'm trying to keep my mind on horses for that one!) something like this:-

If you take a good look at my avatar you might appreciate why I have to wipe away the odd tear at this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUoKtanhOXM
 
PolarSkye said:
So if it wasn't you, and it wasn't PR, then who did I quote? I really did just use the Quote function . . . this is very odd . . .

P
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The problem seems to have arisen from post no. 317 PolarSkye. I quoted Alyth. If you look at that post, you should see how it happened. The words you quoted are attributable to Alyth.

Credit where credit is due, and all that. :D
 
cptrayes said:
Good point!

He can't win, can he?
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I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything. I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists. I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy. I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just Properly Ridiculous. I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.
 
Wagtail said:
I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is nothing compared to what they are capable of doing and do do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they understand it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
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Which is more or less what I said above wagtail;)
Leviathan said:
A lot of people humanize horses in all ways.



Horses do not take it personally against their owners
In the wild or in their world.

A mare will give a kick as
a warning
a bite
a kick
To their foal or youngster when they do wrong.
A horse mare or gelding in a field will give a
kick
bite warning etc to another horse
A stallion also the same.


So I see nothing wrong with a human hand which does far less damage that a horses hoof or teeth. ( my boy is on box rest due to a kick).
It barely stings as when you slap your own leg or play fighting with hubby/b/f.

Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right situation, as I know none of my horses think any less of me, as per my mare of a lifetime you could not get a stronger bond between owner and horse as I did with her.
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Some people pat their horses really hard at the end of eventing or cross country etc just like a smack. How does the horse differentiate between them apart from the words you use ?? he doesn't think anything less of you if you pat/smack him hard after a job well done.... The feeling is still the same to him a small sting when the palm meets his flesh............
 
Alyth said:
It must be instant yes - but not 10 seconds later. .1 of a second is more like it!!
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Didn't say you should wait 10 seconds. I said it must be instant. 10 seconds refers to the maximum length of time the horse is able associate cause and effect. I was under the impression that I had made that clear.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything. I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists. I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy. I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just Properly Ridiculous. I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.
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I still can't decide. I am erring on the side of believing that s/he actually believes what s/he writes but avoids ever explaining anything so that s/he can't be challenged or exposed.

I have a recollection of the very early days of posting that there was a website named in his/her details that I looked at, that took a bit of ridicule for its content. There was all sorts of new age nonsense on it. But it's quite possible that was someone entirely different.

Does anyone on here know who s/he actually is? Don't name him/her online, that would breach T&Cs and be very unfair if s/he desires anonymity.
 
Not read the entire thread but I smack mine when needed but I will not hit on the face. Neck, shoulder, chest, belly or backside but if you were to raise a hand to one of my horses faces you'd not get in spitting distance for weeks. As iv had them for so long now it's very rare I need to discipline. My old boy though has been getting very bargey and has almost squashed me against his door before now. Shoved him back a few times, message wasn't getting through to him and I got sick of his behaviour, gave him a slap and made him back up and he's been much better since!
 
hhmmmm said:
Not read the entire thread but I smack mine when needed but I will not hit on the face. Neck, shoulder, chest, belly or backside but if you were to raise a hand to one of my horses faces you'd not get in spitting distance for weeks. As iv had them for so long now it's very rare I need to discipline. My old boy though has been getting very bargey and has almost squashed me against his door before now. Shoved him back a few times, message wasn't getting through to him and I got sick of his behaviour, gave him a slap and made him back up and he's been much better since!
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So where do you smack it then?? :confused:
 
AdorableAlice said:
I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything. I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists. I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy. I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just Properly Ridiculous. I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.
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You know, he may be a bit oblique at times, but I understand pretty much everything he's saying when he posts about what he does with horses. I'm surprised that so many don't. I think many from the more nh or vaquero approach would. I think it's one thing to poke a bit of light-hearted banter at someone (as PR does), but completely another to start posting personal insults as you have done about anyone. Maybe he just can't be bothered to go into detail? And why bother when it patently won't change anyone's minds? Maybe sometimes it's enough to share a little of what people do differently, without feeling the need to persuade them to your opinion, or bang on about your own "credentials".
Just a thought.

p.s. I thought I might have worked out who PR is a while back. But even if I knew I was right, I would respect his wishes and not tell everyone. :-)
 
I think I've worked out how to stop seeing this thread. It's been stupidly compelling until taking this latest turn. To aid my willpower I'm going to see what "unsubscribing" does. ;-)

Hmm... that was a waste of effort then. (Bangs head on desk).
 
Ellen Durow said:
Didn't say you should wait 10 seconds. I said it must be instant. 10 seconds refers to the maximum length of time the horse is able associate cause and effect. I was under the impression that I had made that clear.
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IMO 10 seconds is too long, it must be INSTANT!! Count to 10 and see how long it is!!

Now I want to quote from an excellent horseman that I doubt many of you will have heard of. Carlos Tabernaberri.
"they (horses) live in the present moment and can't lie"
"aggression in horses is generally caused by lack of trust, and is a learned behaviour. These horses have strong personalities and, rather than running to hide or escape, will fight."
"my idea of making my horses's 'wrong choice' difficult is to redirect his energy into something that's more work such as sending him out onto a small circle for a few revolutions, which is more uncomfortable."
"Human behaviour is about domination not cooperation. We focus on winning battles, not on achieving peace!.
"As a prey animal your horse seeks safety and comfort".
"so when a human uses force, for example, slapping or kicking the horse to reprimand him, the horse sees what he expects to see from a predator, and it confirms that the human cannot be trusted."
"Kind treatment is about understanding the horses's nature and working with it. It is not ascribing human values"
"Humans still look like predators.....That can look pretty aggresssive in the eyes of the horse. Add the occasional slap, jerk of the rope.....and you've just reinforced your horses's instincts that you are as intimidating, inconsistent and untrustworthy as you look."

For many years I followed tradition and achieved success (does passing Pony Club A certificate count as success??) but since I discovered a different way to handle my horses and ponies both they and I are far happier.....none of us consider 'public recognition' aka shows, competitions etc as worth attending, let alone competing in!!! We enjoy our time together and it shows.....

You are all welcome to slap as much as you like, remember a horse can feel a fly land on him, so he does feel a slap, and a whip stings like crazy.....my idea is to handle my horse like I would like to be handled.....if you make a mistake would you like your tutor/parent/spouse to slap you hard and growl or yell? Or would you prefer him to stop you and say 'how about trying it this way?'
 
Alyth said:
IMO 10 seconds is too long, it must be INSTANT!! Count to 10 and see how long it is!!

Now I want to quote from an excellent horseman that I doubt many of you will have heard of. Carlos Tabernaberri.
"they (horses) live in the present moment and can't lie"
"aggression in horses is generally caused by lack of trust, and is a learned behaviour. These horses have strong personalities and, rather than running to hide or escape, will fight."
"my idea of making my horses's 'wrong choice' difficult is to redirect his energy into something that's more work such as sending him out onto a small circle for a few revolutions, which is more uncomfortable."
"Human behaviour is about domination not cooperation. We focus on winning battles, not on achieving peace!.
"As a prey animal your horse seeks safety and comfort".
"so when a human uses force, for example, slapping or kicking the horse to reprimand him, the horse sees what he expects to see from a predator, and it confirms that the human cannot be trusted."
"Kind treatment is about understanding the horses's nature and working with it. It is not ascribing human values"
"Humans still look like predators.....That can look pretty aggresssive in the eyes of the horse. Add the occasional slap, jerk of the rope.....and you've just reinforced your horses's instincts that you are as intimidating, inconsistent and untrustworthy as you look."

For many years I followed tradition and achieved success (does passing Pony Club A certificate count as success??) but since I discovered a different way to handle my horses and ponies both they and I are far happier.....none of us consider 'public recognition' aka shows, competitions etc as worth attending, let alone competing in!!! We enjoy our time together and it shows.....

You are all welcome to slap as much as you like, remember a horse can feel a fly land on him, so he does feel a slap, and a whip stings like crazy.....my idea is to handle my horse like I would like to be handled.....if you make a mistake would you like your tutor/parent/spouse to slap you hard and growl or yell? Or would you prefer him to stop you and say 'how about trying it this way?'
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That is interesting about sending horse out on a circle, I have always done that with my gelding, who is extremely dominant, he doesn't take kindly to being smacked or hit (I still will though!!). I still have to get him on a small circle on the yard prior to shoeing etc. if he is in a crabby mood.

I see the points raised here as perfectly reasonable but still can't get past the fact that a smack is effective, that horses who get reprimanded with a jerk on the lead rope (Linda Parelli's horses !!) or a smack for being rude don't mistrust their handlers 99% of the time, the handlers have a great relationship with their horses based on mutual trust and affection.
It doesn't have a detrimental effect on the horse.
 
This is such an interesting thread.

I think there are some horses that must never, ever be hit. I have two here that I know if I hit them, even gently they would be horrified and would be wary of me for days afterwards. Luckily both horses are exceptionally well mannered. One came to me extremely head shy. You can now cuddle his face, but I know if he was ever smacked on the face, all that work would be undone. I believe this has been caused by badly timed or repeated smacking. :(

But there are other horses, whose personalities are much more robust and extroverted. These horses' manners benefit from a well timed smack every now and then when they push their luck. These types are not in the least bit traumatised or offended, and the relationship with their handlers doesn't suffer on bit.

But there is nothing worse than inappropriate hitting of horses, by inept horse people. Just as there is nothing worse than an overly 'soft' person letting their horse get away with anything.
 
My son's horse needs no more than a quiet verbal reprimand. If you hit him he would be really upset and stressed. When we first had him he couldn't even be patted, in fact we spent weeks patting him firmly all over to desensitise him. he has never been abused or roughly handled, he is just very sensitive.
When walking from one yard to the other last week, my son taught the horse that if he raise his right hand, horse should switch and walk on his left, when he raised his left hand horse should switch and move to right. It took 5 minutes. Horse could make you look like a really good trainer but is actually incredibly intelligent and trainable.

It really is horses for courses. We could produce videos and put them online and make ourselves look like amazing horse trainers.

My grey horse has to be reprimanded about something almost daily. You can ask him to do something one day and he will do it without fuss, the next day he will flatly refuse to do it. If you back off he will completely take over. If he gets away with not doing something you asked him, he is absolute hell for some time afterwards, you have to be zero tolerance with him. If you don't handle him he becomes a bit feral. You can't be overly rough with him as he will kick and bite you back. BUT I periodically will have to smack him, to get him to back up & reinforce aids which he will ignore otherwise which so long as I am being reasonable he is fine with and responds to. I'd be interested in a method which made him compliant without fights, but dont' hold out much hope, I think its just him, with a 'soft' person he would be dangerous and nasty.

2 different horses, 2 completely different approaches. I would love to see a really accomplished NH person with my grey, he is very clever and might respond really well. For now, I just do my best and that includes a smack every now and then. In return he is amiable, biddable and respectful - you just have to be on your toes.
 
siennamum said:
that horses who get reprimanded with a jerk on the lead rope (Linda Parelli's horses !!) or a smack for being rude don't mistrust their handlers 99% of the time, the handlers have a great relationship with their horses based on mutual trust and affection.
It doesn't have a detrimental effect on the horse.
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I don't think it is helpful to cite Linda Parelli's handling of horses in this discussion. Her methods of handling horses are pretty extreme, and not something I would condone or recommend.

I have always believed that the trainer must establish trust very early in the relationship with the horse for training to be successful, at least in terms of producing a horse which is quiet, compliant and dependable. If the horse does not trust its handler, it is always inclined toward fight or flight.

I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
 
AengusOg said:
I don't think it is helpful to cite Linda Parelli's handling of horses in this discussion. Her methods of handling horses are pretty extreme, and not something I would condone or recommend.

I have always believed that the trainer must establish trust very early in the relationship with the horse for training to be successful, at least in terms of producing a horse which is quiet, compliant and dependable. If the horse does not trust its handler, it is always inclined toward fight or flight.

I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
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If they are damaged by physical violence, then they would never trust or like one another. Mine all all rough with each other at some time or another. They bite each other just because they are in reach, they do it for no reason other than because they can.

I strongly believe submission comes from respect - not the other way round. Like it or not, being forceful can result in respect and submission. It all boils down to whether that's how you want to handle your horses.

A short sharp reprimand, will result in the horse respecting you and being submissive and happy. I see it all the time. It's how horses gain respect from one another.

you may use the example of the older respected horse who is not feared but looked up to rather than the field bully. We also acquire that role over time, and can be as steady and calm as that lead horse. No lead horse would tolerate being walked through for instance and they would happily, bite, kick and lunge back at the offending junior horse.
 
AengusOg said:
find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
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But we are not talking about humans here. Most humans do not go around hitting each other. Horses DO. I haven't had to smack my mare in seven years. She understands her boundaries and is trained to do all kinds of things such as fetch a ball, go to any object I point to etc. The only other horse on my yard of seven I have hit, is the foal. And I'm not talking about proper hitting, just a well timed slap with the back of my hand. You try hurting a horse with the back of your hand. He understood this, but thought all my other methods that I tried over several weeks, such as pushing his nose away, playing with his lips etc, were an invitation to play with me and he bit me more. Two well timed slaps (on different days) have stopped him biting me. How has he been damaged? He's not in the slightest bit head shy, comes galloping up to me every time I walk past where he's turned out, wickers at me every time he sees me...
 
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Horses are all such individuals, its impossible to come up with a one size fits all method. I have one that has never yet had even a loud 'oy' never mind any form of dominant body language as a reprimand. She was fear aggressive when we first had her, so even the worst behavior just had to be completely avoided, rather than dealt with. These days I'm confident I could shout or use dominant language myself towards her, but her behavior is such it really isn't warranted, & nor do I want to impose myself as a dominant leader, I much prefer her active choice to willingly do my behavior. By contrast I turned out a very ill mannered cob yesterday at another yard. It's been in for days & isn't exactly well behaved at the best of times. Much muttering of getting some calmer, borrowing chifneys, getting someones hefty husband to lead it etc, all the while putting off actually turning it out prompted me to volunteer to just stick it out. And not suprisingly it tried carting me along. It got a sock on the leadrope, then a few metres after tried setting its neck & charging, so lr over nose. It took it seconds to realise that if it barges forwards it felt pressure on its nose & stopped pulling. Then about halfway decided to invade my space, it got an elbow in the shoulder & a loud 'oy', & moved back out. Now there's no debating its like that because it doesn't know any better & has been stuck in for days, entirely a human cause. But it needed to go out yesterday, & being more dominant than I like to be got the job done in minutes. I'm sure the horse was a bit confused by the fact its usual behavior was suddenly being unfairly punished in its eyes. But the pay off was turnout & freedom there & then, which for the horse I think makes my 'unfair' treatment worthwhile. And in more extreme situations I've used a stallion chain for the same sort of reason, because its in the horses best interests to find a method that works short term to allow everyday handling, while you work on the base cause of the horses actual problems. Ideally I wouldn't, but if you inherit anothers lack of good training, you do sometimes need a way that instantly allows the horse to be turned in/out, or to have a wound treated etc until you have had the time to establish trust & respect that allows more gentle methods.
 
siennamum said:
I strongly believe submission comes from respect -
A short sharp reprimand, will result in the horse respecting you.
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In defeat - Malice, in victory - REVENGE!

That's how this scenario has always worked with me - why should it be any different for an animal?

There's an old Hebrew proverb: spare the rod and spoil the child - I think that way too but in my version - take the child fishing with the rod rather than hitting him with it.
 
Littlelegs said:
Horses are all such individuals, its impossible to come up with a one size fits all method. I have one that has never yet had even a loud 'oy' never mind any form of dominant body language as a reprimand. She was fear aggressive when we first had her, so even the worst behavior just had to be completely avoided, rather than dealt with. These days I'm confident I could shout or use dominant language myself towards her, but her behavior is such it really isn't warranted, & nor do I want to impose myself as a dominant leader, I much prefer her active choice to willingly do my behavior. By contrast I turned out a very ill mannered cob yesterday at another yard. It's been in for days & isn't exactly well behaved at the best of times. Much muttering of getting some calmer, borrowing chifneys, getting someones hefty husband to lead it etc, all the while putting off actually turning it out prompted me to volunteer to just stick it out. And not suprisingly it tried carting me along. It got a sock on the leadrope, then a few metres after tried setting its neck & charging, so lr over nose. It took it seconds to realise that if it barges forwards it felt pressure on its nose & stopped pulling. Then about halfway decided to invade my space, it got an elbow in the shoulder & a loud 'oy', & moved back out. Now there's no debating its like that because it doesn't know any better & has been stuck in for days, entirely a human cause. But it needed to go out yesterday, & being more dominant than I like to be got the job done in minutes. I'm sure the horse was a bit confused by the fact its usual behavior was suddenly being unfairly punished in its eyes. But the pay off was turnout & freedom there & then, which for the horse I think makes my 'unfair' treatment worthwhile. And in more extreme situations I've used a stallion chain for the same sort of reason, because its in the horses best interests to find a method that works short term to allow everyday handling, while you work on the base cause of the horses actual problems. Ideally I wouldn't, but if you inherit anothers lack of good training, you do sometimes need a way that instantly allows the horse to be turned in/out, or to have a wound treated etc until you have had the time to establish trust & respect that allows more gentle methods.
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Exactly, every horse is different and it is impossible to have sweeping rules for all horses. I have two horses at the moment that are at the extreme ends of handling techniques.

The newly purchased heavyweight cob mare, she totally dominated her lovely previous owners. She used her 700kg to do her talking, 6 months on she has improved a lot, but the journey has had unpleasant moments for both of us. A rope halter was very useful, pressure and release lessons on the ground sorted out her space and my space rules. I still carry half a broom stale ( I hear the cries of horror), when leading her around the farm, and it has been used when she thought it would be fun to crush me against the wall a few times. This horse is dangerous through no fault of her own. Had she been handled as a foal/youngster properly she would never have learnt how to use her bulk against people.

The second horse is an 18 months old nervous wreck, equally as dangerous as the cob mare, but his handling is at the other extreme. This horse cannot be patted, he views that as a smack. Hours and hours of work is being put into this horse with excellent results. The broom handle is in use and gradually he is accepting it touching him all over. He is just starting to push the boundaries on manners and being half shire he is a big boy, correcting him has to be done with a lot of thought and with consistent actions. Had he been handled from birth in a fair and firm manner none of his problems would have evolved.

Two very different horses, both with severe lack of manners through no fault of their own, both in need of 'correction' to ensure they are equipped to lead a useful life as pleasant, safe horses. Tricky, this horse business, there is no such thing as one method or rule fits all.
 
I am talking about trust, though, Wagtail and siennamum.

Perhaps we should be talking about humans, because they are far more complicated than are horses. In any discussion about the use of physical reprimand of horses there has to be some mention of humans and their behavioural responses in the relationships they have with their horses.

How many times have we seen posts asking what one should do in a certain situation because a horse does this or that, or advice being sought on such and such a scenario where the horse seems at fault, yet no mention is made of the human counterpart in the relationship. We are effectively being asked to judge the horse and give advice without having any idea about the sort of person involved, or their ability, attitude, temperament, personal outlook, relationships with fellow humans, their stresses, fears, worries, confidence...

None of our business, you may say, but probably very pertinent in terms of any attempts to advise on their 'problem' with their horse.

Lots of humans 'go round hitting each other'. Lots of others use psychological methods to damage those which they wish to hurt. Lots of humans are vile and treat others terribly. Some are perpetrators; some are victims.

Any one of these people could be a horse owner asking for advice, yet we only hear what the horse is doing 'wrong'.

Horses do knock each other about quite a bit at times. However, they are all horses together. They have to find a way to live together. Unless they are living a feral existence, they have to live in the groups dictated by humans. It's inevitable that the stresses involved with living in human-established herds, in small areas, with limited and managed food regimes, will cause relationship issues. Perhaps their interactions are even influenced by the relationships they all have with their particular humans...who knows?

Humans are not horses. Humans are potential predators who, no matter how much they believe themselves to be horse-friendly, 'Equus'-speaking mimics of horses, are still considered non-horses by horses. Humans have the ability to be extremely dangerous to horses, and horses have to learn to trust them.

It's a partnership we are trying to establish with horses. How many of us would put up with being slapped around by our human partners?
 
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AengusOg said:
Any one of these people could be a horse owner asking for advice, yet we only hear what the horse is doing 'wrong'.
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On this forum, this just isn't true. On every thread I have ever read about a horse doing something "wrong" there will be a number of people who suggest that the horse is in pain, in fear or that the handler is at fault.
 
AengusOg said:
It's a partnership we are trying to establish with horses. How many of us would put up with being slapped around by our human partners?
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I am not "slapping around my partner" when I slap a horse, I am communicating with him in a language that he understands, a language in which other horses "talk" to him.

Your whole post starts from the premise that in a perfect environment horses would never kick bite or punch each other, and that any behaviours like that which they show when we see them is caused by our way of keeping them.

In my view, that is simply completely incorrect.
 
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