Do You Smack your horse?

[eatmyshorts]

I use my whip (rarely) to back up my leg, if it is being ignored. I use my elbows & fingertips (eg. a poke in the nose if teeth are coming in my direction) to defend myself. I wouldn't say i smack as a punishment as such often at all.

 

[lastchancer]

...because I'm intrigued how you would've done it?
I believe I was firm but fair with him. Earlier in the thread you said that people posting had no idea what Firm but fair was. So educate me, was I firm but fair with this horse,.... If not how would you have handled him differently?

You won't get any advice from PR on how to actually do anything, just lots of barbed comments on how wrong you are... Incidentally I also wonder how his highness PR would have handled the 16hh thug that nearly flattened two young girls in our field yesterday, yes, yes it probably does have some reason for charging into people with his ears flat back, but that doesn't help the poor person on the receiving end now does it, but a stick might.

 

[Pale Rider]

You won't get any advice from PR on how to actually do anything, just lots of barbed comments on how wrong you are... Incidentally I also wonder how his highness PR would have handled the 16hh thug that nearly flattened two young girls in our field yesterday, yes, yes it probably does have some reason for charging into people with his ears flat back, but that doesn't help the poor person on the receiving end now does it, but a stick might.

People offer it up on a plate really. So you have a horse thats a bit of a thug in your field. Why let two young girls in there with it. Horses can be difficult, but with stupid people down right dangerous. Sort the horse out, if you can't pay someone who can. Keep vulnerable people out of its way till then. Some people need a stick across their own backside never mind the bloody horse.

 

[lastchancer]

People offer it up on a plate really. So you have a horse thats a bit of a thug in your field. Why let two young girls in there with it. Horses can be difficult, but with stupid people down right dangerous. Sort the horse out, if you can't pay someone who can. Keep vulnerable people out of its way till then. Some people need a stick across their own backside never mind the bloody horse.

Not my horse, not aware of horse 'till today, not my yard, not my kids. If it were my kids/horse or yard then I would indeed stop them from going in with it. However, it's in with mine, and if a dangerous situation occurs where the horse has to have a clout or I get kicked, bitten or flattened then yes I'm afraid it will get one. BTW I'm not talking about a bit of a thug either, there are those that stomp about without really meaning any harm, and there are those that have learnt just how to use their size and power against people.
Can't argue with the last sentence though

 

[Pale Rider]

Not my horse, not aware of horse 'till today, not my yard, not my kids. If it were my kids/horse or yard then I would indeed stop them from going in with it. However, it's in with mine, and if a dangerous situation occurs where the horse has to have a clout or I get kicked, bitten or flattened then yes I'm afraid it will get one. BTW I'm not talking about a bit of a thug either, there are those that stomp about without really meaning any harm, and there are those that have learnt just how to use their size and power against people.
Can't argue with the last sentence though

Sorry when you said 'our' field assumed you knew the horse.

 

[Amaranta]

I don't generally have to, but I did once smack my now 15yo. When she was younger she was very protective of me and would guard me jealously. I had a saddler out who also had an Iberian and she wanted to teach Spanish Walk. I was showing her how to start the training so had a schooling whip in my hand. The saddler started laughing because my horse was making faces at her every time she came near me, she then put her hand on my shoulder and my horse went straight for her teeth bared, without thinking I smacked her straight across the chest with the whip (the horse, not the saddler lol) if I had not she WOULD have taken a chunk out of the poor girl! Totally unacceptable behaviour and she never did it again.

On the other hand I had a VERY dominant filly who challenged every single thing you asked of her, no point in smacking her, she would come straight back at you. I spent a lot of time putting her in the 'naughty corner', using body language to establish MY space and backing her up whenever she was out of hand. She turned into a lovely horse in the end, but it took some time!

 

[_GG_]

No, don't have to , as I've a very ?? l don't know what to call it, voice. (E.g. when I used to go to dog training the instructor said that when I called 'Come' every dog in the class tried to come to me). It's nothing clever as I certainly didn't learn it - it's just there. So I think when I sound 'cosy' to horse (or dog) I sound VERY cosy. When I sound cross I sound VERY cross. I only rebuke my horse / my liveries by voice. They always stop what they're doing at once. So I've never had to hit a horse - the voice hits them for me! Sounds daft when it's typed out.............ps It works on people too, but not, for some strange reason, on my OH!

This made me laugh. I used to do behavioural rehab with dogs and am exactly the same with my voice. I have a naturally low tone, which when soft is very soothing but when projected can make the earth move without needing to even be loud. I was at a line in a Small Tesco a few years back and there were some young lads at the far end of the queue. There was a waist height rope acting as the barrier and when I got called to the farthest checkout, the lads snuck under the rope to get there first. I didn't even realise I was doing it, but my instant reaction was a quick, "AH" in the don't even think about it tone and they shot back under the rope and said sorry. They were terrified. I got a round of applause from the rest of the queue

As for horses, I am the same. My voice does it all for me. I have given a sharp smack when needed, but it hasn't been often and is usually when a horse has developed a bolshy streak thanks to being spoiled and not having manners taught.

I want safety. Pale Rider, I understand the whole, "don't get yourself in a situation" argument, but that doesn't work In reality. Take a horse that you find loose on the roadside, endangering itself by running in front of cars. I could ignore it as it could be nasty and cause me injury or the need to reprimand it....but I will never be a person that could leave a horse in danger. Better to catch it and give it a smack if it needs it in order to be safe than leave it to get horrendously hurt in an accident.

Do I like or ever want to physically reprimand a horse? No. But if it is absolutely needed and is done done in anger, frustration or hard or in a sensitive place then it can be very useful as a safety last resort or a training last resort for youngsters.

Again, nothing a horse wouldn't do to another horse. Blimey, if my little smack was as powerful as a horses kick or bite, I'd be in a circus.

 

[Pale Rider]

As for horses, I am the same. My voice does it all for me. I have given a sharp smack when needed, but it hasn't been often and is usually when a horse has developed a bolshy streak thanks to being spoiled and not having manners taught.

I want safety. Pale Rider, I understand the whole, "don't get yourself in a situation" argument, but that doesn't work In reality. Take a horse that you find loose on the roadside, endangering itself by running in front of cars. I could ignore it as it could be nasty and cause me injury or the need to reprimand it....but I will never be a person that could leave a horse in danger. Better to catch it and give it a smack if it needs it in order to be safe than leave it to get horrendously hurt in an accident.

I am constantly astounded and amazed by the ingenuity and lengths people will go to in order to find a scenario which may justify giving a horse a smack.

 

[jeeve]

Smacking the horse is just a sign the owner/handler is frustrated. It achieves nothing with respect to training the horse and improving the safety/situation, or preventing a situation arising.

I know someone who used to hit her horse, (she told me this herself) but after years of NH, she now has two horses that are light, sensitive, a dream to handle and ride. (Both young horses).

She was a 55 year old woman, who had been around horses her whole life, but until she did NH she still resorted to hitting out in frustration.

 

[_GG_]

I am constantly astounded and amazed by the ingenuity and lengths people will go to in order to find a scenario which may justify giving a horse a smack.

I am continually amazed by the close mindedness of some people. It was said to get a reaction from you, it did.

I read a post in this thread in which you say that you won't give specific advice because all horses are different. I agree that all horses are different. But, you have been asked questions about how you specifically deal with things.

Is there any chance you might give us a case history of a horse that you have worked with? Not advising any of us but an example of a horse that came to you less than perfect and how you dealt with that?

The best trainers in all spheres of horsemanship will back up their claims with evidence. I was questioned on here a while back about retraining my ex racer without a flash and with a soft contact...someone didn't believe it...so I posted a video of myself riding her to give evidence of what I do.

Honestly Pale Rider...I genuinely want to believe all of the claims you make, but you make it difficult. You quote the parts of people's posts that allow you to pick them apart, rather than give constructive advice.

I would be the happiest person in the world if nobody ever smacked a horse again, so if you know how to make that happen, why not educate us? You can't visit us all in person and you can't work with every horse, so if you are going to tell people they should do it another way and you know that other way, then you should develop a method of educating us.

Unfortunately, whilst you appear to be always on the side of doing the best for horses, your approach puts people off.

Look at it this way. You want the best for horses, forget about point scoring with the people you disagree with. Instead, think of their horses and and how, if you help them, you are helping their horses.

If you judge and ridicule, you leave those horses receiving the same treatment you condemn.

At the moment Pale Rider, while you consistently fail to actually give any evidence of your knowledge and skills in working with horses and fail to offer any advice on the correct training and handling techniques, you are simply a person at the end of a computer that nobody will take seriously.

I want everything you say to be true. If it is, I will happily learn from you. I am sure others would as well. But you have to be able to show that your way works and share that way with us if you want us to change our ways with our horses.

This is my girl with my other half....so completely trusting of humans now, because I have earned that trust. I have never hit her. Two years ago, she would have taken a chunk out of Dans face, now she falls asleep. Never a cross word or raised hand and I will gladly say how I did it...I used my voice and I never shouted.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x0wYrkVr0

How do you do it?

 

[Pale Rider]

I am continually amazed by the close mindedness of some people. It was said to get a reaction from you, it did.

I read a post in this thread in which you say that you won't give specific advice because all horses are different. I agree that all horses are different. But, you have been asked questions about how you specifically deal with things.

Is there any chance you might give us a case history of a horse that you have worked with? Not advising any of us but an example of a horse that came to you less than perfect and how you dealt with that?

The best trainers in all spheres of horsemanship will back up their claims with evidence. I was questioned on here a while back about retraining my ex racer without a flash and with a soft contact...someone didn't believe it...so I posted a video of myself riding her to give evidence of what I do.

Honestly Pale Rider...I genuinely want to believe all of the claims you make, but you make it difficult. You quote the parts of people's posts that allow you to pick them apart, rather than give constructive advice.

I would be the happiest person in the world if nobody ever smacked a horse again, so if you know how to make that happen, why not educate us? You can't visit us all in person and you can't work with every horse, so if you are going to tell people they should do it another way and you know that other way, then you should develop a method of educating us.

Unfortunately, whilst you appear to be always on the side of doing the best for horses, your approach puts people off.

Look at it this way. You want the best for horses, forget about point scoring with the people you disagree with. Instead, think of their horses and and how, if you help them, you are helping their horses.

If you judge and ridicule, you leave those horses receiving the same treatment you condemn.

At the moment Pale Rider, while you consistently fail to actually give any evidence of your knowledge and skills in working with horses and fail to offer any advice on the correct training and handling techniques, you are simply a person at the end of a computer that nobody will take seriously.

I want everything you say to be true. If it is, I will happily learn from you. I am sure others would as well. But you have to be able to show that your way works and share that way with us if you want us to change our ways with our horses.

This is my girl with my other half....so completely trusting of humans now, because I have earned that trust. I have never hit her. Two years ago, she would have taken a chunk out of Dans face, now she falls asleep. Never a cross word or raised hand and I will gladly say how I did it...I used my voice and I never shouted.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x0wYrkVr0

How do you do it?

Nice post GG, we'll see.

 

[Alyth]

To me a smack can vary. It can be delivered with anger (emotion) which doesn't achieve anything. It can be delivered impartially as 'phase 4'.....after asking with increasing strength.....so as I said before, I like to see what is about to happen and nip it in the bud with a less violent, but still effective, correction......if a horse comes in too close can you ask it to go back away from you? Can you increase the level of demand? Without hitting it in the face with the clip? Or without using the whip? So imo having to smack a horse is only useful if you are actually training the horse....he needs to learn to respond to your cues before he gets to the smacking stage....and the human needs to be able to read the horses body language and anticipate what he is about to do and be able to shut down 'bad' behaviour...about the only exception to this is if you are handling a horse who is not yours....and you need to defend your space.... but again that is the horse owners fault for not teaching the horse his boundaries.....I must also say that often the handler is at fault for smacking a horse un-necessarily, when his behaviour does not deserve a smack or whip hit, a minor misdemeaner does not deserve a smack or whip hit.....simply a correction - for instance back a few steps, or move him around a bit....and it is interesting to see how few people can actually ask and get specific movements from their horse while they (the human!) is on the ground.....

 

[tallyho!]

No I just use telepathy. I speak horse fluently and so I reason with them in this way.

Even my yearling who has previously tried to leap over me gets a sit down and a talking to. I often find a bunch of flowers waiting for me by the door in the morning and a thank you note.

 

[ShadowFlame]

I have no issue in smacking when the situation calls for it. Any "nasty" behaviour (i.e. barging, kicking, biting) will gain one.

Your horse is not a child. It's half a ton of animal. It's no fun having something that size with no manners. In a herd environment, if a horse steps out of line it will be bitten / kicked. A smack (I'm not talking about beating, here - that's a different kettle of fish) isn't on the same scale, and I don't understand people having issues with it?

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Not so much on the ground unless they have kicked out at me or reared at me, which isnt often. Under saddle yes if they are stopping and I know its not me and they are capable and if my young horse refuses to go forward, mainly in the ring. One sharp tap normally changes his mind. I wouldnt beat a horse but I dont let my horses get away with things either

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I have a miniature that thinks its ok to nip to get your attention so she will get a thump on the neck when she does it. I was making a fuss of her mum last week and she nudged me in the back and when I took no notice she nipped my leg! Naughty pony but I love her to bits.

 

[sywell]

The response has to be instant so the animal relates to what it has done. If it bites me I whack it and if it gets upset and wont do something be calm and keep going and never give up or else it has won.

 

[MrsB]

My boy got a smack the other day for trying to and then succeeding in putting his foot through the top of my 'sturdy' plastic storage box. He wanted a treat and thought that'd be the way to get them, this is naughty and he was told off. He looked mortified (!!) but I'm of the 'firm but fair' theory. All animals need discipline in some form or another.

He will also get a light tap (and I mean a light tap) with the schooling whip if he's being lazy and not listening to my leg in the school, I will not sit on him and boot the living daylights out of him to get him moving - this is just rude.

I always carry a high-viz whip when we hack out, a) to be seen and an extention of my arm when indicating and b) I *think* you're meant to carry one as part of your insurance??? May be wrong on that one, but I always carry one when out.

 

[lastchancer]

Smacking the horse is just a sign the owner/handler is frustrated. It achieves nothing with respect to training the horse and improving the safety/situation, or preventing a situation arising.

I know someone who used to hit her horse, (she told me this herself) but after years of NH, she now has two horses that are light, sensitive, a dream to handle and ride. (Both young horses).

She was a 55 year old woman, who had been around horses her whole life, but until she did NH she still resorted to hitting out in frustration.

See that I do agree with, hitting out in frustration is always counter productive. And something that we see far too much of, particularly from so called professionals.

 

[Brightbay]

Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?

 

[Cortez]

Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?

No. Why would I?

 

[lastchancer]

Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?

Depends what the alternative was I guess.
Some methods of 'training' that don't involve smacking;

Withholding Water
Endless Lunging
Working very young or very poor thus weak horses
Hobbling
Rareyfieing (John Rarey, Ye Olde Horse Whisperer)
Endless backing/intimidation with severe rope halter
Yanking on a bit/rein/thin rope halter/nose chain.
Work to the point of exhaustion, then work some more.
Rolkure
Sacking out

I had a horse a couple of years ago that was dangerously whip shy, he'd leap all over anyone in terror of the whip. As part of his retraining I spent hour upon hour desensitising him to the whip, even the the sound of it sent him skywards. Starting with a short jockey whip and working up to a driving/lunge whip I tapped him all over with it, flicked him with it - not hard obviously. Working upto a fairly smart smack, I could also whirl it around chopper style above his head with out him flinching. Would the anti smackers call this abuse? Undoubtedly at time I would have frightened,although never hurt, him and the out come was/is a useful rideable horse rather than a ticking time bomb.

Of course no body wants to see a horse beaten, the horse detailed above was a very,very sad example. But you what, I have seen, owned and handled a lot of horses, and not many have been knocked about to that extent. I think in a lot of cases a short sharp reprimand delivered at the right time can me the most appropriate course of action.
If I'm missing something and there's a better alternative suitable for all cases, then yes I'd like to hear it.

 

[kerrieberry2]

I've learnt the hard way with my youngster. He bit me so got a slap in the mouth. Then I got a slap in my mouth when he rared and boxed out. Had my trainer out and we are both of the opinion that he will go in to battle rather than backing down. So no I won't be doing that again. Also got a hit with the whip another time he reared and he didn't seem to even feel it. And just left me feeli h guilty.

 

[Christsam]

I agree, I have no problem hitting mine (not beating him and never more than once) if he is putting himself or me in danger. I think it's the right thing to do for both horse and rider.

this. Mainly with my boy its to do with his damn teeth! sharp tap on the end his nose normally does the trick! used to have to get tough when he was younger as he would rear etc but thats stopped now anyway.

 

[wench]

I will smack a horse if its done something to deserve it.

Also gave one of my old horses a good smack to bring him back to his senses. We were in the indoor school, which he had been in many times before, and there was a pot of fake flowers in the corner. These were evil and not to be approached. After much napping and silly behaving near them, one good smack and it brought him back to his senses.

 

[turkana]

I'm not much of a hitter & very rarely do it but I did smack one of my horses on Sunday, as she was horrible to my youngster; she was just standing there minding her own business when her so called pal booted her.
It was only a smack with my hand & she deserved it but I still felt a bit bad about it!

 

[Cortez]

Depends what the alternative was I guess.
Some methods of 'training' that don't involve smacking;

Withholding Water
Endless Lunging
Working very young or very poor thus weak horses
Hobbling
Rareyfieing (John Rarey, Ye Olde Horse Whisperer)
Endless backing/intimidation with severe rope halter
Yanking on a bit/rein/thin rope halter/nose chain.
Work to the point of exhaustion, then work some more.
Rolkure
Sacking out

I had a horse a couple of years ago that was dangerously whip shy, he'd leap all over anyone in terror of the whip. As part of his retraining I spent hour upon hour desensitising him to the whip, even the the sound of it sent him skywards. Starting with a short jockey whip and working up to a driving/lunge whip I tapped him all over with it, flicked him with it - not hard obviously. Working upto a fairly smart smack, I could also whirl it around chopper style above his head with out him flinching. Would the anti smackers call this abuse? Undoubtedly at time I would have frightened,although never hurt, him and the out come was/is a useful rideable horse rather than a ticking time bomb.

Of course no body wants to see a horse beaten, the horse detailed above was a very,very sad example. But you what, I have seen, owned and handled a lot of horses, and not many have been knocked about to that extent. I think in a lot of cases a short sharp reprimand delivered at the right time can me the most appropriate course of action.
If I'm missing something and there's a better alternative suitable for all cases, then yes I'd like to hear it.

VERY good and perceptive point. Agree absolutely.

 

[Holding]

I actually can't remember the last time I smacked a horse. An open handed slap hurts! Me, that is, not the horse. Anything that tries to bite gets an elbow in the face, and anything in my personal space gets prodded hard in the chest until it moves back. I even - please don't tell the RSPCA - carry a schooling whip while I ride. And use it!

 

[puss]

My cob very rare hes old knows the score now when younger nearly everyday and not a tap either. Since moving to new yard getting quite a few again as turned back to a two year old
Spanish was badly beaten i try really hard not to smack him but when he bites me gets a sharp smack normally on his belly as allready head shy.

 

[yasminA]

The way I see it is that it's meant to be a partnership, if my pony disrespects the partnership and does something naughty like go to bite, I have no problem in giving him a smack, just one though and then let that be that.