Do You Smack your horse?

glamourpuss said:
Youngsters do try things out with their teeth that is true. In fact my 18 year old is still mouthy & likes to catch hold of things in his gob. This is very different from a nip or a bite....& given how experienced you put yourself as being you should know this. So how do you deal with a youngster who has started nipping?
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I'm going to be lazy and paste (with minor edits) something I wrote previously about the way I deal with coltish nibbling and biting. I'm not suggesting that other people try this - it's just what I do.

Concerning the issue of general mouthiness and tendency to chew on hands and clothing, as is common in colts. It isn't usually aggressive -- at least not initially -- and is in contrast to truly aggressive biting in which the horse strikes, teeth bared, ears back.

For nibbling, pinching the upper lip works quite well, especially with foals. It must be perceived as a direct result of lips/teeth contact with skin, so it is best to do it instantly, silently and without fuss. Maintaining the pinch for a second or two while the foal recoils seems to work better. It shouldn't be painful, just a bit uncomfortable.

However, the technique I find most effective, especially with older horses, is to let him start to take my hand into his mouth, then instantly stick a knuckle into his soft palate causing him to try and spit my hand out. One has to be prepared for the few horses that either raise their heads up beyond arm's reach (it helps to keep
everything calm and matter-of-fact - but one would be doing that anyway, no?) or that find unexpectedly pointy objects palatable! In my experience, these cases are extremely rare - almost all horses respond in exactly the same way.

Obviously, one should always have a quick escape route for your fingers, using the gap behind the incisors. Very small pony mouths or the presence of tushes demand a bit more caution. Alternatively you can poke the palate with a finger, palm turned upwards. I try to keep my hand in the horse's mouth for a couple of seconds while he tries to spit it out/get rid of it with his tongue. You don't want to hurt or injure him; you just want him to really dislike the sensation.

With deft movement you can intercept nibbles elsewhere (e.g. on your clothing) in such a way that the horse comes to realize that it is unpleasant and not worth nibbling anywhere on your person. It's kind of hard to describe the exact moves and timing in words - showing a video clip would be better!

I think it is crucial that your response to nibbling is perceived as a consequence of his own action and NOT as a reprimand. At least, it will be more effective that way as you will avoid it being taken as an act of aggression which could escalate to "dominance games". I firmly believe those are to be avoided at all cost. Sometimes one can get away with being aggressive, but the cumulative effect in any horse is an erosion of trust and cultivation of resentment. However, with stallions, the changes in attitude caused by repeated aggressive reprimanding are more likely to surface in overtly aggressive behaviour on their part.

Please note that I am not arguing against use of punishment at all. However, I am pointing out that the way punishment is administered (and with what intent) matters a great deal. To reiterate: from the horse's point of view, nasty things shouldn't come from you the person. Rather, they should follow directly from specific actions or behaviours.

Two or three repeats in a couple of sessions is usually effective to extinguish the nibbling behaviour completely and permanently. If you then offer your hand up to his mouth, you will see the horse thinking about taking it, as he would have done before, and then deciding to keep his mouth firmly shut!

With this method I have taught many foals and young colts not to nip. I've also used it successfully with a few problem stallions who had their mouthiness turned into more serious nipping by badly administered punishment (which turned it into a pernicious "game"). Success rate has been 100%; injury rate 0% (in over 20 years of using this method).

Despite what you may now be thinking, I am very safety conscious. Actually, going into a horses mouth isn't a big deal is it? I am sure many of you have done it before - e.g. when opening a horse's mouth to put a bridle on. And it's not like you have to do it very often - maybe half a dozen times per horse in total.

Finally, it is an effective alternative to smacking, and avoids some of smacking's potential downsides.

In summary, the palate-poking method:

- doesn't involve hitting or scolding the horse
- doesn't hurt the horse
- is 100% effective (so far, in my experience)
- fits seemlessly with and doesn't distract from whatever else you may be doing with the horse
- needs very few repetitions
- doesn't create any bad feelings towards the handler
 
fburton said:
I'm going to be lazy and paste (with minor edits) something I wrote previously about the way I deal with coltish nibbling and biting. I'm not suggesting that other people try this - it's just what I do.

Concerning the issue of general mouthiness and tendency to chew on hands and clothing, as is common in colts. It isn't usually aggressive -- at least not initially -- and is in contrast to truly aggressive biting in which the horse strikes, teeth bared, ears back.

For nibbling, pinching the upper lip works quite well, especially with foals. It must be perceived as a direct result of lips/teeth contact with skin, so it is best to do it instantly, silently and without fuss. Maintaining the pinch for a second or two while the foal recoils seems to work better. It shouldn't be painful, just a bit uncomfortable.

However, the technique I find most effective, especially with older horses, is to let him start to take my hand into his mouth, then instantly stick a knuckle into his soft palate causing him to try and spit my hand out. One has to be prepared for the few horses that either raise their heads up beyond arm's reach (it helps to keep
everything calm and matter-of-fact - but one would be doing that anyway, no?) or that find unexpectedly pointy objects palatable! In my experience, these cases are extremely rare - almost all horses respond in exactly the same way.

Obviously, one should always have a quick escape route for your fingers, using the gap behind the incisors. Very small pony mouths or the presence of tushes demand a bit more caution. Alternatively you can poke the palate with a finger, palm turned upwards. I try to keep my hand in the horse's mouth for a couple of seconds while he tries to spit it out/get rid of it with his tongue. You don't want to hurt or injure him; you just want him to really dislike the sensation.

With deft movement you can intercept nibbles elsewhere (e.g. on your clothing) in such a way that the horse comes to realize that it is unpleasant and not worth nibbling anywhere on your person. It's kind of hard to describe the exact moves and timing in words - showing a video clip would be better!

I think it is crucial that your response to nibbling is perceived as a consequence of his own action and NOT as a reprimand. At least, it will be more effective that way as you will avoid it being taken as an act of aggression which could escalate to "dominance games". I firmly believe those are to be avoided at all cost. Sometimes one can get away with being aggressive, but the cumulative effect in any horse is an erosion of trust and cultivation of resentment. However, with stallions, the changes in attitude caused by repeated aggressive reprimanding are more likely to surface in overtly aggressive behaviour on their part.

Please note that I am not arguing against use of punishment at all. However, I am pointing out that the way punishment is administered (and with what intent) matters a great deal. To reiterate: from the horse's point of view, nasty things shouldn't come from you the person. Rather, they should follow directly from specific actions or behaviours.

Two or three repeats in a couple of sessions is usually effective to extinguish the nibbling behaviour completely and permanently. If you then offer your hand up to his mouth, you will see the horse thinking about taking it, as he would have done before, and then deciding to keep his mouth firmly shut!

With this method I have taught many foals and young colts not to nip. I've also used it successfully with a few problem stallions who had their mouthiness turned into more serious nipping by badly administered punishment (which turned it into a pernicious "game"). Success rate has been 100%; injury rate 0% (in over 20 years of using this method).

Despite what you may now be thinking, I am very safety conscious. Actually, going into a horses mouth isn't a big deal is it? I am sure many of you have done it before - e.g. when opening a horse's mouth to put a bridle on. And it's not like you have to do it very often - maybe half a dozen times per horse in total.

Finally, it is an effective alternative to smacking, and avoids some of smacking's potential downsides.

In summary, the palate-poking method:

- doesn't involve hitting or scolding the horse
- doesn't hurt the horse
- is 100% effective (so far, in my experience)
- fits seemlessly with and doesn't distract from whatever else you may be doing with the horse
- needs very few repetitions
- doesn't create any bad feelings towards the handler
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The above also works with cats and dogs.
 
Brightbay said:
Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?
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Well, I know it's possible to train and work with horses without smacking, because there are some horses that I have never smacked, including one stallion that I knew and handled from the age of 3 until he was pts at age 30, 6 years ago. I never smacked my TB gelding either in the 17 years I had him. I certainly wouldn't say the behaviour of either was 'perfect' 100% of the time.

There are other horses which I have smacked, although in retrospect I wonder if that was just down to lack of experience. I think there were probably better alternatives. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. ;)

Still, I would never rule it out as a possible measure in case of emergency, to avoid bodily harm - but then it is highly likely that some other action is needed to stay safe.
 
FBurton, good points. I don't go to the trouble of doing what you do but I do similar with youngsters who may get a little OTT with mouthing. I pull their tongues out the side of their mouths. Not hard and not with aggression, just do it and hold the tongue for a few seconds then release. They don't like that and in my experience they are reluctant to mouth on people again.
 
tallyho! said:
The above also works with cats and dogs.
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Not surprised to be honest. The method is based in pure cause-and-effect, and doesn't rely on anything specifically equine.

You wouldn't catch me sticking my finger in a dog's mouth though - that's far too dangerous! :eek::D
 
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Spring Feather said:
FBurton, good points. I don't go to the trouble of doing what you do but I do similar with youngsters who may get a little OTT with mouthing. I pull their tongues out the side of their mouths. Not hard and not with aggression, just do it and hold the tongue for a few seconds then release. They don't like that and in my experience they are reluctant to mouth on people again.
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Brilliant! A variation on the same principle - don't get mad, just make the unwanted action have instant uncomfortable consequences.
 
fburton said:
Not surprised to be honest. The method is based in pure cause-and-effect, and doesn't rely on anything specifically equine.

You wouldn't catch me sticking my finger in a dog's mouth though - that's far too dangerous! :o:D
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Ah, well, I like to live on the edge and to be fair a cats mouth is much worse :D
 
I don't 'smack' as standard. My 20 month old is v mouthy but blocking with my elbow so she 'bumps' into me puts her off as she's kind of inflicting it on herself in that way and not getting resentful which she might if I were to 'lash out'.

Only exception was when I was grooming her undercarriage when she was about 11 months and she tried to cow kick so I set up a training session loose in the field, she was eating hay and used to me giving her a brush etc anyway in the field, anyway I knew she'd try out her new moves on me because she thought she could! but I was ready with one sharp quick pop on the rear with the lead rope literally as she was doing it. Well she leapt 10 feet away and the surprise and shock on her face was a picture, she had her ears forward on me and then sloped back to me wanting to be friends. Never tried to kick again so in that instance i believe it was warranted. In hindsight I could have desensitised her undercarriage more, maybe it tickled her etc but that's neither here nor there I had to nip that dangerous behaviour in the bud straight away and it worked.

I hate to see people smacking their horses for every little thing, do they not realise it desensitises them to it anyway and one day they'll turn round and take a chunk out of annoying human and too right!
 
fburton said:
Brilliant! A variation on the same principle - don't get mad, just make the unwanted action have instant uncomfortable consequences.
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Nope never get mad at them. I'm calm with my guys and when I've done this with the little ones they look at me like 'what's going on, this feels strange'. Funny but they don't pull away, they just stand there and I keep the tongue out for long enough for it to go slightly dry :D so that when I release the tongue and they put it back in their mouth it's a weird feeling for them because the tongue isn't slippery as usual. They don't run away and aren't fussed about it, or me, they just don't like the feeling and I've not found those ones I've done it to ever mouth on people again, or even try to. Might sound a strange thing to do but it works for me.
 
You should be careful doing anything that involved pulling on a horse's tongue. It has been shown that this damages the hyoid bone :(
There was an interesting thread in CR about this, I'll find it
 
Spring feather: Roo must have missed your memo. He LOVES having his tounge tugged (gently!) and his soft palate itched. He was a little mouthy for a while so did the nose pinching trick which worked as it was a hard pinch. A soft pinch though, is the best game ever.
 
Kallibear said:
Spring feather: Roo must have missed your memo. He LOVES having his tounge tugged (gently!) and his soft palate itched. He was a little mouthy for a while so did the nose pinching trick which worked as it was a hard pinch. A soft pinch though, is the best game ever.
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Lol! Whatever works :) It's not the pulling (I don't pull as such, more hold the tongue out of the mouth), it's the dryness of the tongue when you keep it out of the mouth for a number of seconds that confuses them.
 
I very rarely smack my mare - usually it's only to avoid getting leaped on so in the interests of self-preservation! She can be a bit silly with other horses, and is prone to leaping about and kicking out, which obviously can be a problem if I'm leading her. Normally I just ignore her, but if she is in danger of squishing me (or hurting herself, as she has been to known to kick out and hit the fence) then she will get a smack and a firm "NO". I don't believe in over doing it at all, but a telling off can have its place.
 
tallyho! said:
To those who don't believe in any form of reprimand... We're you an only child?

:D
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No but my mother was very much like my broodmares, she never raised any limb to me ever :D However your comment does lead me on to an idea I have. My foals, as said, appear to be born respectful. I don't have trouble with them. People who buy horses that I've raised don't appear to have problems with them either. I keep my foals in herds with all the other foals and mothers, and although none of the mothers will discipline their own foals, the other mothers will! Once they are weaned the foals go in with older horses, so again are living in a decent sized herd. They are disciplined by these older horses and it seems to keep them on the straight and narrow. Perhaps the problem with so many horses is they are not kept like this? They are the 'only' child so to speak ... make sense?
 
Spring Feather said:
No but my mother was very much like my broodmares, she never raised any limb to me ever :D However your comment does lead me on to an idea I have. My foals, as said, appear to be born respectful. I don't have trouble with them. People who buy horses that I've raised don't appear to have problems with them either. I keep my foals in herds with all the other foals and mothers, and although none of the mothers will discipline their own foals, the other mothers will! Once they are weaned the foals go in with older horses, so again are living in a decent sized herd. They are disciplined by these older horses and it seems to keep them on the straight and narrow. Perhaps the problem with so many horses is they are not kept like this? They are the 'only' child so to speak ... make sense?
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Oh yes, totally agree with you there. I used to breed quite a lot of foals (10 - 15 per year) and kept all out in herds. Only when I had a single rescued mare and foal many years later did I realise how much the herd was responsible for keeping order! That colt was a little *****, tormented his mother and us, and had to have a very severe awakening to his place in the world before very long.
 
It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training.

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.
 
AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever.

I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.

I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
 
AengusOg said:
It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training.

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.
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Spot on, a trainer's business wouldn't last two minutes if it came out on this particular forum that they'd been hitting horses, despite the hypocrisy of the situation. I think you've summed this one up for me AengusOg with this:-

""Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse."" and
""I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training.""

Excellent.
 
It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet. The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace. Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed. Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice. Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well. They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.
 
AdorableAlice, you cruel owner. You should be at one with her. You should have told her no through your vibes and used your inner wisdom to warn off the fire burning in your mares belly encouraging her to seek to cause another pain.
When my horse is ill, I'm so emotionally in-tune with her that I only have to pray to Epona to find the answers.
Your answers don't lie in the end of a feedscoop. Seek them through your sole.
You have caused unmentionable trouble to your mares trust in you tonight. You will never be able to touch her again.
 
Oooo, you bad bad person. You're not fit to have horses. Id tell you to give me Ted but I can't bear the thought of him and Roo charging around and destroying my field even more.

Your aim us better than mine! I threw a brush at Roo the other day from the tack room as he was chewing Pink's saddle. Missed entirely but it WAS effective: he instantly pounced on the brush and started chewing that instead, then ran off with it. Problem sorted. I have yet to find the brush though.

ETA Snigger @ elsiecat :D Although have we moved into barefeet if we're talking about sole rather than soul?
 
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AdorableAlice said:
It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet. The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace. Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed. Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice. Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well. They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.
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Very naughty... :D :D
 
Kallibear said:
AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever.
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I'm not sure if these two sentences are supposed to be linked or not. I see them as a question and a statement. Negative reinforcement has nothing to do with reprimand or issuing a 'clear No!' I don't think it possible to train or work a horse without at least some use of negative reinforcement.

I don't use clear 'No!' 'No' doesn't appear in my vocabulary with horses, so vocally I am supportive, encouraging, and praising. I use negative reinforcement through the halter, my use of 'pressure and release' and 'advance and retreat', to encourage the responses I seek.

However, some horses with whom I'm asked to work can be very aware of their ability to intimidate humans, and such horses need to be quickly made aware of the boundaries they must observe from a 'my safety' point of view. I use visual cues, body posture and language, and energy to demonstrate the potential danger I could pose to a horse who may be a danger to me. Immediately the horse responds by lessening his 'threat' to me, I use more passive demeanour and encouraging voice to manage him, thereby forming the basis for the correct relationship between us to facilitate his training.

Reading intent on the part of a horse is fundamental to training him. So many people miss so much when working with horses. By being able to closely observe the horse and anticipate his behaviour in response to certain stimuli, the trainer is able to obviate much of the behaviour which would otherwise lead to conflict and the need (by some) to use reprimand.

Kallibear said:
I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.
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I just can't see the sense in using physical violence against a horse when there are other ways to shape their behaviour.

Kallibear said:
I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
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I tend to ignore undesirable behaviour too, as long as it doesn't put me in danger. However, I also tend not to address 'bad' behaviour in horses, preferring to teach them a new, more desirable way to behave, rather than get into conflict.

I don't know if horses can be willfully bad.
 
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