Do You Smack your horse?

My horses register their dissatisfaction with one another and dominance through threats and pressure. I would be more likely to raise my voice than my hand and more likely to raise my hand than smack. I don't tolerate dangerous though. Horses move toward pressure and are reactive animals. Often failing to handle firmly can confuse and depress them far more than the odd tap. Mine have good manners and are generally a pleasure to handle, i'm firm but they are all bold as brass but polite, not a nervous or headshy battered wreck among them. All been smacked at some point, all been shouted at for silly or rude things within last 7 days b1 still leans on her door when I do her rugs after 10 years of correction, b2 for walking where i'm walking, but all happy to stand and sleep with their head on my shoulder or lick my neck (bug) or nose (b1). I have well adjusted happy horses who know I am the alpha and gain confidence as herd animals from the knowledge that I am there to sort alpha stuff like where to find food and chasing off danger. I can ride them past anything because they trust me as head of our herd not fear me.
 
Yes but I'm not one of these that is always slapping them about and quick to do so due to impatience or incorrect handling, there is a big difference.
Firm but fair and timed right, just like horses react with each other, I cant bite or kick like a horse but I will raise a hand and shout no if a horse disrespects me, if they know the boundaries then we all get along just fine, my horses enjoy my company and vice versa because I treat them with kindness and respect, but your dealing with half a ton of animal and they need to bare the consequences for there actions if they step out of line, what that is and how often will differ between us and will show if your doing it right or not but that is a whole differnt ball fame
 
Kallibear said:
AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever.

I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.

I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
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Saying 'no' is not negative reinforcement! Negative reinforcement is removing the stimulus when you get the response you want..... I refuse to believe that horses are deliberately 'bad'. I think that when a horse is 'wilfully bad' he is trying to tell you something!! And I do not believe in 'punishment' for a horse. Way back in the 1950s my dad taught me that punishing a horse is simply releasing your frustration!!! And my dad was never wrong!!!!
 
AengusOg said:
It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training.

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.
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Nice!!
 
AdorableAlice said:
It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet. The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace. Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed. Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice. Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well. They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.
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Well, imo you expended more energy than necessary!! If you had simply put each animal in its own pen to feed different amounts, the ones being fed less would have no opportunity to steal anothers food.......KISS!!!
 
I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.
 
tallyho! said:
I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.
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What flight are you on? I'll drive up to Auckland to pick you up!! How will I recognise you??
 
to the poster who said stick a finger in the roof of the mouth - thank you :) it works! had never heard of doing this before.
Have a gobby colt, not nasty or wicked but gobby, tried it this morning and he was like 'what the hell?' I wont say yet it has stopped him but Im going to keep doing it as long as he does. btw he didnt try it again this morning :)
 
Alyth said:
I think that when a horse is 'wilfully bad' he is trying to tell you something!!!!
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So when we first bought the GreyDonkey and he was a bargey so-and-so with no respect for human's space, what was he trying to tell me? He is now an absolute delight to handle and lead . . . a three-year-old child could bring him in from the field . . . but it wasn't always thus.

P
 
AengusOg said:
It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?
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This is exactly my point. HORSES ARE NOT CHILDREN. When a child gets unruly, it's easy to handle. When half a ton of animal decides to throw a tantrum, it's dangerous. Add that to the fact that children are NOT prey animals, do NOT live in herds, and you can REASON verbally with them. You can't compare the two.

I use smacks when the need calls for it. When we moved to our new yard, I had 4 people in the space of a week comment on how good my boy is, and how well we work together. We have an understanding and an awesome bond - the use of punishment hasn't altered or affected that in the slightest, it has just reinforced his respect (and stopped him being a bargy little s*d!!).
 
If I never hit Ned or told him off, I would have a broken horse and a broken me.

I haven't had to do it for ages, but I've never "beat" him.
In fact, I trained him to respect my space in the stable and pen the other week. I never properly hit him, but simply bounced the whip/my hand off his chest while saying "BACK" very clearly. I don't have to touch him anymore and he responds very well.


Had I had Ned from a baby, who knows. I don't think myself to be a fantastic horse trainer (or a horse trainer at all for that matter), but maybe if he had come to be first, would he be a better horse now? He came to the yard ruined and we had no idea what he'd been through, we just knew there were a lot of scars, he was off to the meat man and by the way he reacted to stuff, he'd had poor training from somewhere down the line and sometimes for everyone's safety that means a slap. I hate doing it, but I like to think it's saved me from being squashed on the fence a few times.
I think it has it's place, but the power shouldn't be over-used. I see that too much!
 
tallyho! said:
To those who don't believe in any form of reprimand...
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Reprimanding suggests you are telling the horse off, rebuking, scolding, admonishing, whatever... Often it's better to encourage and make easy the behaviour you want as a way of avoiding the behaviour you don't want. Sometimes, however, it is appropriate to discourage the horse doing something, like the previous nibbling example. In that case I prefer to punish the behaviour, not the horse.

Punishment needn't be violent at all. It can be the mildest action needed to discourage an action or behaviour. (I believe it should be the mildest action possible, ideally, and that is worth striving for.) Palate-poking is pretty mild, but there are lots of punishments milder even than that. Here's an example:

When I am leading a horse at the shoulder and he veers to one side - let's say away from me - I hold the leadrope in such a way that he gently bumps into its tension. I don't jerk the rope and, although the horse feels something, it isn't a very obvious gesture. Indeed, an onlooker might not see it at all! The horse doesn't react by raising his head up suddenly, licking his lips, putting his ears back, or by changing his pace at all. But I know that the action or a short series of them has punished the veering because he now walks straighter and doesn't veer off to the side. His attitude to me hasn't changed in any way that I can see, he still looks happy and relaxed. He can still turn his head to look around - that's only fair - but he knows that moving too far produces a sensation of resistance. This is much less than what he would get if he was tied to a ring on the wall and moved his head too far - that is an unyielding resistance compared to what I am able to produce by tensing my arm muscles.

Would you say that was punishment? Well, yes it is according the behavioural definition - but I think you'll agree it's nothing like a reprimand.
 
Kallibear said:
And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
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Why do people think that horses have such a developed sense of right and wrong? I honestly can't think of any behaviours in horses that are caused by 'dishonourable' motivations - even horrible (to our eyes) behaviour like bullying. Isn't it we humans that decide what is an 'acceptable reason' or not?

Is hunger an 'acceptable reason' for a horse to do something? If not, why not?

AengusOg said:
I don't know if horses can be willfully bad.
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Whether they can or not - and I think it is highly unlikely - working on the assumption that they can't seems to work just fine!
 
AMW said:
to the poster who said stick a finger in the roof of the mouth - thank you :) it works! had never heard of doing this before.
Have a gobby colt, not nasty or wicked but gobby, tried it this morning and he was like 'what the hell?' I wont say yet it has stopped him but Im going to keep doing it as long as he does. btw he didnt try it again this morning :)
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Great to hear it works for someone else! :) Isn't it amazing how quickly they 'go off' nibbling? If your colt's nibbling does start up again, I'd be surprised - and interested to hear about it. He may direct his mouthiness elsewhere - like some other part of your clothing - but if you watch him closely and intercept him the instant he tries to do it, I think you'll find he will stop that too just as quickly.
 
ShadowFlame said:
This is exactly my point. HORSES ARE NOT CHILDREN. When a child gets unruly, it's easy to handle. When half a ton of animal decides to throw a tantrum, it's dangerous. Add that to the fact that children are NOT prey animals, do NOT live in herds, and you can REASON verbally with them. You can't compare the two.
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I agree - horses are not children. However, I think would find it easier to deal with 'naughty' horses than naughty children because horses are much, much less complicated (despite being 1200lb animals!;)) and mistakes are more readily forgiven(?). I consider their lack of verbal reasoning a plus - imagine what it would be like if horses were that sophisticated! :eek:
 
Good advice I agree! I tend to hold the rope just around my left hip for leverage iykwim so if horsey veers away it will go 'taught' and I don't really have to do anything to bring her back.
 
When my horse is bolshy, when he tows me somewhere or when he swings his bum around into my path. I like a bit of respect from my horse and he tends to tow me places as he knows my back is weak (slipped disc) and can get away with it.

I smack him on the shoulder, bum, or tap him on the nose and have no hesitation. They are bigger and stronger than us, and 'kind words' or a 'softly softly' approach are often not effective, especially when the adrenalin is up. I would never beat him up, or whip him continually. I have heard a friend who saw a friend get off her horse, and whip it within an inch of its life as it was a 'trotter' and wouldn't learn to trot 'normally'. It made me feel sick hearing what had happened. If Bailey pushes me so far, and I feel very angry I will walk away from the situation until I have calmed down sufficiently to continue. The ability to do so is something that comes with age.
 
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tallyho! said:
I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.
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Next weekend it is then. Lots of people have seen me work with horses, and all my work comes by recommendation.
 
AengusOg said:
Next weekend it is then. Lots of people have seen me work with horses, and all my work comes by recommendation.
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In Scotland?. Actually I could tie in with a visit to my cousins in Glasgow...

I'm completely up for this by the way... If you are? Although next weekend in Scotland may be pushing it... More achievable than NZ sorry to have to say to Alyth... :( would have been an awesome trip.. Perhaps she'll pencil me in for a few years time? :)
 
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I beat mine pretty regularly with a big stick :p

But when he is good he gets a big sloppy snog on the nose and a packet of polos.

You know so his boundaries are very clearly defined :D
 
I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week:eek::o leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side:o poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way;) obviously i'm stronger than i think!
 
Ibblebibble said:
I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week:eek::o leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side:o poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way;) obviously i'm stronger than i think!
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Pahaha! Poor thing, I had to laugh at that XD
I did something similar to a Jack Russell once! Thankfully he was ok too!
 
Ibblebibble said:
I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week:eek::o leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side:o poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way;) obviously i'm stronger than i think!
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I feel mean for laughing.. :D
 
As a lot of others have said, I smack if the situation warrants... On the rare occasion that the horse just completely ignores and barges through you, I think they need a reminder that you are there and they should be listening to you. I have only had to do this a couple of times, and mostly when the new lad was new and testing boundaries, and as a big chunky cob, I wanted to make clear from the start that some things were simply not acceptable. That has since been refined with lots of groundwork and in hand schooling, and he can now be safely trusted to literally anyone to handle.

Someone at a previous yard was very against hitting a horse at all, and very softly softly - and her horse was horrendous to handle and generally had no idea of personal space... I do strongly disagree though with those who hit hard enough to leave a mark, or out of frustration etc rather than as a safety thing.
 
I've seen a few comments on this thread that imply if a horse is rude or bargy it's a training issue, or something lacking in the handler (I'm referring to those of us who have trained our horses well but they forget themselves occasionally and have to be brought up short), but how many of us can honestly say that our horse, however well trained and obedient it is, never, ever steps out of line?

How we deal with these moments will vary from handler to handler, but I resent any implication that my horse is untrained or unruly because she warrants a well-timed slap across the nose on the rare occasion when she goes to nip - and I'd like to point out it's ONLY when she goes to nip. She respects space and will move or stand on command without recourse to smacking.
 
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