Do You Smack your horse?

Out of interest amandap what would you suggest or have done in the scenario I mentioned earlier? Basically a horse unconnected to me with no manners that's been stuck in for days, & the owner too afraid to turn it out? My course of action was a quick tug of the lr (on normal headcollar) then when it braced its neck lr over nose. No pressure from me but when it tried bracing its neck & towing me it put pressure on its own nose & ceased. And an out turned elbow when it majorly invaded my space. Obviously being stuck in for days didn't make it ideal to start doing groundwork with, it needed to go in the field asap. I'm not trying to pick holes I'm interested to know if there was another way I could have got the job done safely there & then without having to unfairly (from the horses pov) punish it for behavior the owner has allowed to become habit.
 
Wagtail said:
But my point is, you are presented with this horse. You cannot safely get him to the arena to train him because he would tank off. You cannot use only mild pressure because you will lose. You have to use a 'check and release'. My point is, this will be uncomfortable. Proably more uncomfortable than a slap. Ye NH trainers use this kind of training. Nothing wrong with it, but it exerts just as much, if not more discomfort than a slap to the chest or nose with the back of your hand.
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This is why I am not a YO or a trainer. lol Yes the sharp yank is used and I have used it in the past. If I dealt with a variety of horses I might have to use it again, I just don't anymore.

It isn't just the level of pain or discomfort it's the action of the slap/hit and the emotion that usually (if not always) surrounds it. Anger, frustration are just two that usually accompany a slap. There is something very personal to me about slapping and hitting too... a foible perhaps but I see it as some sort of violation. I want training to be thought about and measured as well as respectful.

ps. Littlelegs, I don't know because I wasn't there. I might have had to resort to a yank on the dually though in a no other option I could see scenario.
 
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lastchancer said:
Wagtail. I think a lot of people never consider that a yard owner has lots of horses to handle, and doesn't always have time to mess about with other peoples pig ignorant bovine half ton darlings :)
I know how I'd handle the above big cob -Slip halter/war bridle, let it run itself into the pressure. Severe, and not something I particularly like to do. A constant dead pull would just give him something to lean against.

I'm not sure why a lot of people feel dually halters and pressure halters are preferable to a bit, in my humble opinion they can be more severe than a bit, and very damaging on the soft nose and poll tissues, they should only be used as a last resort, and with caution.
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Exactly. I don't have time to train other people's horses by spending hours with them in the arena. They have to learn to be safely handled in a very short space of time. However, having said that, I don't think my methods are in the least bit severe. I simply match the pressure they are offering me. Sometimes you have to make a quick sharp check so that the horse cannot set itself against you. I agree that duallys and rope halters can be just as severe as leading a horse in a snaffle. The point is, you have to use what is effective for that particular animal. I find the lead rope over the nose to be the most effective and convenient (emergency) form of restraint. My aim is to have all horses leading nicely by my side on a loose rope. And thankfully they all do.
 
amandap said:
This is why I am not a YO or a trainer. lol Yes the sharp yank is used and I have used it in the past. If I dealt with a variety of horses I might have to use it again, I just don't anymore.

It isn't just the level of pain or discomfort it's the action of the slap/hit and the emotion that usually (if not always) surrounds it. Anger, frustration are just two that usually accompany a slap. There is something very personal to me about slapping and hitting too... a foible perhaps but I see it as some sort of violation. I want training to be thought about and measured as well as respectful.

ps. Littlelegs, I don't know because I wasn't there. I might have had to resort to a yank on the dually though in a no other option I could see scenario.
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I never hit a horse in anger or with any strong emotion, ever. I agree, that to do that would be wrong. Everything I do with horses is calculated and ordered, and controlled. To go back to the foal biting. He is a lovely boy, and he just wanted to play. I discussed the approach we would take with him, with his owner, so that we were both 'on the same page'. The first approach was to just push his nose away. However many times he tried to nip, just gently push it away. It seemed to work. 'Great' we thought. Then a few weeks passed and suddenly he started all over again. This time, it was obvious that he viewed us pushing his nose away as a game as he got worse. We regrouped. His owner wanted to try the playing with his nose and lips approach. We did this consistently over the next two weeks, but he just got more sneaky and would launch in with a bite and get away before we could fiddle with his nose. Another game. So eventually we realised we would have to up the pressure with blocks and with uwards slaps to the nose. I don't know how often his owner had to do this. But for me, it was twice. He no longer bites me. Now, if he looks as though he may, a flicking gesture with my hand will send him away. No contact needed.
 
Just to add. If I just had my two horses to deal with, I would not need to yank or to slap. They are trained to walk on a loose rope, in a normal headcollar. They do not barge, or bite or kick or tank. If I only had to deal with these two horses, I would say that I don't hit horses, and my yanking days are over. :)

I also think that many of the anti hitting camp are arguing against practices that I am also against. They use terms such as violence, anger, and aggression. These terms do not feature in my dealings with horses. On the contrary, I am very calm and low energy. Any 'hitting' is rare, and always appropriate to the situation.
 
I think perhaps people on this thread have a lot more in common than we think, there's been talk about acting out in anger/losing ones temper and the effect that can have on a horse. No one wants to hit horses (except for that weirdo on the fb thread) nor does anyone want to haul them about on halters.
Perhaps a better question would have been Do You Use Anger Against Your Horse? And the answer to that would hopefully be no. After all, how can we expect to control our horse if we cannot control ourselves?
 
Wagtail said:
Exactly. I don't have time to train other people's horses by spending hours with them in the arena. They have to learn to be safely handled in a very short space of time. However, having said that, I don't think my methods are in the least bit severe. I simply match the pressure they are offering me. Sometimes you have to make a quick sharp check so that the horse cannot set itself against you. I agree that duallys and rope halters can be just as severe as leading a horse in a snaffle. The point is, you have to use what is effective for that particular animal. I find the lead rope over the nose to be the most effective and convenient (emergency) form of restraint. My aim is to have all horses leading nicely by my side on a loose rope. And thankfully they all do.
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I agree,that short sharp lesson has to be better than strugging on with it for weeks, and probably saves someone from getting flattened.
 
Wagtail said:
I also think that many of the anti hitting camp are arguing against practices that I am also against. They use terms such as violence, anger, and aggression. These terms do not feature in my dealings with horses. On the contrary, I am very calm and low energy. Any 'hitting' is rare, and always appropriate to the situation.
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Fantastic! :)

But aren't we all in the anti-hitting camp??

There are those who don't like hitting, but do so recognizing it to be a necessary measure on occasion. There are those who don't like hitting and don't. And maybe there are a few who truly don't see it as a potential problem. Or is that an unfair distinction?
 
A long time ago my mare (then 3 years old) took a chunk out of my shoulder whilst I had my back to her whilst talking to someone – we’d not had her long – she got an instant belt across the chops … she’s 11 now and never once bit/nipped anyone since - I would never tolerate a naughty/dangerous animal no matter what size! Nowadays she only needs me to oi her !

I also don’t think a smack would really hurt a horse … I also carry a schooling whip when riding but not to ‘hit them with’ just as a long extended arm aid – a tickle on her bum is usually all that’s needed :p
 
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Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's all of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands could have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
 
fburton said:
Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's all of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands could have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
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Um, led the mare to the stallion, instead of vise versa?
 
FBurton - I think my first thought would be to have the mare bred in a different location where possible, and to completely disrupt all the "cues" that indicating to the stallion that he was being led towards an in season mare (including the tack used, the route taken, etc.).

I appreciate that that's not always easy - but if a situation is getting dangerous and an environmental change would help, it would be worth a bit of extra effort and expense to help.
 
fburton said:
Fantastic! :)

But aren't we all in the anti-hitting camp??

There are those who don't like hitting, but do so recognizing it to be a necessary measure on occasion. There are those who don't like hitting and don't. And maybe there are a few who truly don't see it as a potential problem. Or is that an unfair distinction?
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I agree. I don't like hitting, but it has it's place on occasion, so long as it is not hard, repeated, ill timed or inappropriate. I DO think that hitting can cause problems if inappropriate, disproportional, or uncontrolled. Hitting should never be in anger, or when a horse is fearful, or does not understand what is expected of it. I also do not believe that whips or spurs should be used as punishment.
 
fburton said:
Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
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I'll have a guess from your story detail. Change the bit or adjust it so it fitted correctly?
 
Brightbay said:
FBurton - I think my first thought would be to have the mare bred in a different location where possible, and to completely disrupt all the "cues" that indicating to the stallion that he was being led towards an in season mare (including the tack used, the route taken, etc.).

I appreciate that that's not always easy - but if a situation is getting dangerous and an environmental change would help, it would be worth a bit of extra effort and expense to help.
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Another good suggestion, and the first thing I wondered about. As it happened, the set-up and routine were pretty fixed.
 
fburton said:
You are both getting warm! However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.
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I find with a rearing excitable horse, the best way is to use a long line and let them have their heads. Not try to use any force against them, just pressure and immediate release. Having said that though, I have never handled an excitable stallion.

The stud owner at our local stud was brilliant with the huge 17 hh rearing stallion. Yes, he was in a chiffney, but there was no upping of the energy and fighting against her. He was like a thing possessed, but she was so calm and let him have plently of line. Keeping a tight hold on such horses is counter productive. Key is low energy and calmness.
 
Wagtail said:
I find with a rearing excitable horse, the best way is to use a long line and let them have their heads. Not try to use any force against them, just pressure and immediate release. Having said that though, I have never handled an excitable stallion.
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Yes, that was my next thought and having no experience of planned and controlled covering, my follow on thought is just let him go for it loose. Probably too risky though. :o
 
fburton said:
However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.
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What about the humans? If they aren't considered part of the environment a different handler? A female handler? Getting desperate now. lol My last thought is ( :o ) leading training away from the covering environment and then in it without mares there? rofl.
Oh and feed him before covering?
 
Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
 
I think I would have been laughed into the next county if I had suggested clicker! (Not that I am against it at all.) No, not that.
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Whilst I would normally suggest this, I think there's an issue of salience of reinforcers when food is up against a flirty mare :D

I like the solution. I've had similar experiences with learning not to hang on an eager horse's mouth/head when riding :)
 
fburton said:
Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
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I suppose in the same way that a horse on a very short l/r gets ansty but generally if they are allowed more rope and it's slack they have the chance to respond to the more subtle cues given.

And no I don't smack or slap any of my three horses, maybe it's just luck but I have no need, they are very well behaved and despite being with me for a while have managed against the odds to retain their manners.
 
fburton said:
Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
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Ah yes, the long rope and letting the horse (and you) have space to move was one of my first and probably the most enduring lesson.
 
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