Do You Smack your horse?

Brightbay said:
Whilst I would normally suggest this, I think there's an issue of salience of reinforcers when food is up against a flirty mare :D
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Quite! :D This fact actually offers a great opportunity to train good manners in breeding stallions, if one contrives for good behaviour to be rewarded thusly. On the other hand, it also offers a great opportunity for bad behaviour to be rewarded and trained inadvertently.
 
fburton said:
And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
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I used to be on a yard where there was a Shire stallion at stud (nearly 19 hands of him). When he was taken out for covering mares he just went for it and nobody could have held him. The way he was dealt with was to blindfold him in the stable before he was led out. Then when he was in position whip the blindfold off (it was designed so you could do that easily) and then stand back!
There was a second Shire stallion on the yard and he was good as gold.
 
fburton said:
Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's all of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands could have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
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I would never have tried to hold the horse described. I don't ever try to hold any horse these days, they are far too strong for anyone if they put their mind to it. I would have put a much longer lead rope on him, allowed him to "get away from me" if he insisted and used the leverage that I then had with the rope to step sideways and get an angle where I could pull him, even if only partly, off his single-minded path to the mare. Finding themselves pointing away from the direction that they meant to be going in usually brings them temporarily back to their senses.

Of course in the case you are describing, it would never have got that far, because this lad, as you later unveil, gave up pulling when the handler gave him nothing to pull against.

I have to say also that I have never handled a breeding stallion and accept that this method may not be succesful with a set of raging hormones ready to fight another stalliong to the death for his mare.
 
Tallyho: you can bring the mare closer so it's less distance to walk the stallion but you still need to lead him some distance, unless you just owner his door antler him loose;) They need to cover somewhere with good footing too so he'll need to be lead to the covering barn. Also if he does AI he'll need to be lead to the dummy. Many stallion do ONLY AI and find the dummy also as exciting as a real mare!
 
Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares. :eek: Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.
 
Kallibear said:
Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares. :eek: Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.
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I'm interested why? Is it their value and or risk of injury?
Surely they don't have a different courting and covering behaviour to other horses, do they?
 
Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
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Thanks. I realized after I had posted that a solitary lifestyle wasn't going to equip the stallions for herd/free breeding, I suppose they would have little idea about the social niceties in courtship.
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
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Now you've hurt my feelings, not to mention the feelings of my Highland stallion!:D:eek::p
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
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Sounds like the perfect reason for not keeping a horse entire in my view it is horrible to think of the solitary and confined lives these poor horses have. As to the not running out unless low value stock I would say that was a little condescending and rude to many wonderful stallions
 
Kallibear said:
Tallyho: you can bring the mare closer so it's less distance to walk the stallion but you still need to lead him some distance, unless you just owner his door antler him loose;) They need to cover somewhere with good footing too so he'll need to be lead to the covering barn. Also if he does AI he'll need to be lead to the dummy. Many stallion do ONLY AI and find the dummy also as exciting as a real mare!
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Oh right well that seems silly to me. The stud I know does it very naturally and theres never any stress. Mare is put near to him for a few days then they go in together and either get on with it there and then or a bit later on if she needs chatting up.

Never experienced AI. I have seen it done the other way around but much prefer the above. It's so much more peaceful.
 
The Highland I had, he was bred on a yard where the stallion ran with the herd.The owner said it was fascinating to watch and if any of the foals went missing it was often Dad not Mum that went searching.
 
Have to reply to KALIBEAR re the stallion thing
There is no reason why any breed of stallion cant either live with his herd or at least cover without being led.A horse is a horse! The reason stallions become unhandeable is that they havent been with mares and isolation has soured their temperaments.
We had 2 warmblood stallions , the second of which lived with his mares, and covered visiting mares in a v large pen. I consider him to be 'valuable' , but thats never an excuse for keeping stallions isolated. Of course, once a stallions temperament is soured/spoilt, then I know theres a huge problem and you may never thoroughly rehabilitate them.
Our first stallion , we owned from a foal, and no one ever thought he was entire, when out riding,hunting,shows etc. He lived with mum till 10 months old, then with youngsters, and then the ridden geldings. Aged 4 we had to field him on his own with cattle as he started to bite the geldingd, but next to the mares etc where he could see them. He covered inhand,very kind to his mares and no tanking/pulling etc.


Further to much earlier post where I exampled biting horses and said we 'taught' the owner to smack to save herself being bitten, I would also say our stallions were handled without ever needing reprimands, simply because we a) had them from a young age and b) they led as 'normal' life as possible. For schooling we would usually carry a whip , but I was 'trained' by my very abused horse[ 20 odd yrs ago] not to carry a stick out hacking/huntingetc , so apart from dressage schooling[ not really my thing anyway!]I dont carry a stick and feel if I needed to reprimand my own horses on a regular basis I would be doing something not quite right for them.
 
tallyho! said:
Why don't they bring the mare to the stallion and not the other way around?
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Good points have already been made by others. With 'in hand' covering, it is generally more practical to bring the stallion to the mare. If the mare is booted and/or hobbled, fairly standard in TB breeding, she will be less moveable. This wasn't the case in the example I gave above. Even unrestrained, however, the mare will be less inclined to be moved when the stallion is nearby because her natural tendency will be to stand still and adopt a squatting posture, expecting the stallion to come to her. Also, as I suggested in an earlier post, it is easier to lead the stallion towards the mare than to keep him standing in one place, because that is his natural tendency. The problem in the case I described was the lack of control and restraint, which was improved by not trying so hard to control and restrain. Hope that answers your question.
 
Kallibear said:
Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares. :eek: Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.
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You're right, of course, though there are exceptions to every rule. I knew a WB (Holsteiner) stallion Literat in Germany that used to run with WB mares. He had a very nice temperament and was highly fertile (which was one of the reasons he got 'bookings').
 
To return to the main subject of the thread...

cornbrodolly said:
I dont carry a stick and feel if I needed to reprimand my own horses on a regular basis I would be doing something not quite right for them.
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That is my feeling too. Having to reprimand regularly is a state of affairs I would not be happy with, speaking personally. I'd want to change it, if I could.
 
Cortez said:
I used to run my Trakhener stallions (NOT low value!) with their mares. I had very chilled and happy boys.
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Numpty question from a non-breeder - I assume that if you do this (and I wish more places would) then you put one stallion with his mares and keep a big distance between stallions if you have more than one?

The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help :p
 
I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.
 
cptrayes said:
The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help :p
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Ha ha, yes it seems that way to an outsider like me. It does seem the more money involved the more we want (have??) to control breeding and horses management in general. The more they are worth the more they are 'protected'. Seems such a shame to me tbh but I suppose I understand the reasons.
My feeling is like the example fburton gave... let go of that iron grip of control a bit and the horses will almost thank you for it and behave in a calmer way.

So many of the ways we protect them go against horse behaviour and even physiology it seems to me.
 
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siennamum said:
I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.
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I bet it was. We all talk about how important the foundation of training is but what about the foundation of being a horse, physically, mentally and socially?
 
amandap said:
Ha ha, yes it seems that way to an outsider like me. It does seem the more money involved the more we want (have??) to control breeding and horses management in general. The more they are worth the more they are 'protected'. Seems such a shame to me tbh but I suppose I understand the reasons.
My feeling is like the example fburton gave... let go of that iron grip of control a bit and the horses will almost thank you for it and behave in a calmer way.

So many of the ways we protect them go against horse behaviour and even physiology it seems to me.
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Completely agree with you. I own what is probably a barn-reared dressage horse, bred in Germany with the intention of being worth a lot of money, so probably never allowed out much as a foal/youngster. It looks like he's paid for it with his feet, which have failed to develop to match his 17 hand frame and still looked like a two year olds at 6. We are getting there slowly, but it's a long job to improve them into proper adult feet. If he had stayed shod, they never would have made it and he'd still be walking on tin cans.
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
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Are PREs considered low value? I don't know but to me, it's people that cause the issues in breeding high value stock.

If it was left natural, far less would go wrong. The might be a bite mark here and there but they do heal.
 
siennamum said:
I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.
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This is what I have seen and its really very peaceful and all seem content. Even when new stallions are introduced for following season (once old stallion moved on to new mares) after the initial "this is my bit, that's your bit"... All is fine and the other stallions foals are well looked after and played with by new stally.

I am sure some stallions can be grumpy but you can't be grumpy for too long after you're tired out from so much sex.
 
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