Amaranta
Well-Known Member
That used to be a common problem with warmbloods, my old vet was convinced it was a major reason for the increase in cases of navicular disease back in the eighties.
Do You Smack your horse?
- Thread starter Dizzy socks
- Start date
That used to be a common problem with warmbloods, my old vet was convinced it was a major reason for the increase in cases of navicular disease back in the eighties.
fburton
Well-Known Member
It's always good to hear of studs allowing stallions to run with mares. But how common is it really outside the world of native ponies?
siennamum
Well-Known Member
The stud I was at was a warmblood stud. I am of a mind tho that stallions kept in work and used for AI woudl also have a pretty ok life, not much different to other competition horses, mares are after all also entire.
The issue seems to be where the horse may not have a job apart from covering and is kept in pretty isolated conditions the rest of the time. I suspect that a horse like Saddlers Wells has a pretty decent life so even then the horse isn't exactly suffering imo.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Well, myself, I can only speak for the PRE studs that I know of in this country.
Annd, having said the above, I don't know how similar set-ups for other breeds wouldn't work unless the breeders just didn't like the idea... set-up for AI etc...
Most stallys and mares are there to do one job... breed. Can understand where stricter set up is required for competing stally's needing to be kept pristine. I don't know enough outside the world I know to really comment though.
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lastchancer
Well-Known Member
Perhaps not as common as it should be, interesting comments made about the connection between coddled horses and navicular.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Yes, each stallion had his own paddock, double fenced but they could all see each other and any new or visiting mares that came in, and mares were put in with whichever stallion they were due to be covered by and left all together until the outside mares went home; our own mares lived in with their "husbands" full time. And these were competing stallions too, they happily went off to competitions and came straight back to their paddocks full of vim and vigour. Did it this way for around 13 years and had one of the highest conception rates in the entire breed society. And very happy horsesNumpty question from a non-breeder - I assume that if you do this (and I wish more places would) then you put one stallion with his mares and keep a big distance between stallions if you have more than one?
The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Yes, each stallion had his own paddock, double fenced but they could all see each other and any new or visiting mares that came in, and mares were put in with whichever stallion they were due to be covered by and left all together until the outside mares went home; our own mares lived in with their "husbands" full time. And these were competing stallions too, they happily went off to competitions and came straight back to their paddocks full of vim and vigour. Did it this way for around 13 years and had one of the highest conception rates in the entire breed society. And very happy horses
Sounds lovely .
The first mare I tried to breed from ( sadly she never took.) went to a Clydesdale / Anglo arab stallion he ran with the mares as we drove down the lane to farm you could see him standing in a hillock watching his next lady arrive he was a lovely laid back chap.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
First of all, the OP's question. No, I don't smack my ponies as there is no need for it. I was outraged when the judge mounted my Highland stallion at a show and promptly gave him a couple of heavy whacks with his crop. What for? The fact that the man is also a college lecturer made it all the more extraordinary to me.
Having said that, I can't say I would never smack a horse -- or dog. If I did, it would be like the plumber called in to sort a housewife's boiler. The plumber looks at the boiler for a couple of minutes, then hits it with his hammer. The boiler immediately starts working again. "That will be £50, ma'am". The housewife is outraged. "How can you possibly justify that for two minutes work?", she asks. "Well", replies the plumber, "I only charged 50p for the tap with the hammer. I charged you £49.50 for my forty years experience and knowing where to hit the boiler and how hard".
When I hit something, it is a cold calculated action aimed at sorting a specific problem. I'd be concentrating on precise timing and the force of the blow would be measured to convince the animal that it was it's own actions that caused the shock (not pain) and not me! I am always the good guy in the eyes of the animal I am training and I try to keep it that way.
I think Highland stallions are easily handled because it used to be common practice to "travel" them so that crofters could get their mares served without the expense of owning their own stallions. A difficult stallion would be no use for this. Also, breeders have always been prepared to put up with a difficult riding horse if it will produce more speed or jump a higher fence.
My stallion runs with his mares 24/7. He is taken out and smartened up for a show, attends the show (when everyone thinks he is a gelding!), then put back with his mares again when we get home. I used to take him away from foaling mares but now leave him with them and, as another poster has said, he is very attentive of the foals. It is lovely to see them all interacting as a herd and doing what horses should do. I am convinced that foals started this way make for easier handling later in life, too.
Having said that, I can't say I would never smack a horse -- or dog. If I did, it would be like the plumber called in to sort a housewife's boiler. The plumber looks at the boiler for a couple of minutes, then hits it with his hammer. The boiler immediately starts working again. "That will be £50, ma'am". The housewife is outraged. "How can you possibly justify that for two minutes work?", she asks. "Well", replies the plumber, "I only charged 50p for the tap with the hammer. I charged you £49.50 for my forty years experience and knowing where to hit the boiler and how hard".
When I hit something, it is a cold calculated action aimed at sorting a specific problem. I'd be concentrating on precise timing and the force of the blow would be measured to convince the animal that it was it's own actions that caused the shock (not pain) and not me! I am always the good guy in the eyes of the animal I am training and I try to keep it that way.
I think Highland stallions are easily handled because it used to be common practice to "travel" them so that crofters could get their mares served without the expense of owning their own stallions. A difficult stallion would be no use for this. Also, breeders have always been prepared to put up with a difficult riding horse if it will produce more speed or jump a higher fence.
My stallion runs with his mares 24/7. He is taken out and smartened up for a show, attends the show (when everyone thinks he is a gelding!), then put back with his mares again when we get home. I used to take him away from foaling mares but now leave him with them and, as another poster has said, he is very attentive of the foals. It is lovely to see them all interacting as a herd and doing what horses should do. I am convinced that foals started this way make for easier handling later in life, too.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Well I wonder why that would be
I wonder which mare would be more likely to catch, the one with her legs tied together or the one who's been courted until she wants to stand for the stallion?
fburton
Well-Known Member
Exactly! It is common practice to minimize the amount of time spent teasing to that needed to check whether the mare is going to stand for the stallion or not, seemingly disregarding its role in promoting fertility and conception rates. If anything modern ultrasound technology has made teasing less likely to be done in anything more than an extremely cursory way, because it reduces the need to verify standing oestrus. Not saying that accurate determination of imminent ovulation via scanning doesn't also improve conception rates, of course - but surely there can be no harm in allowing some time for courtship, even if the extended interactions that are afforded by pasture breeding are not possible?
fburton
Well-Known Member
From another thread...
This raises the question: In this thread, we are talking about a single smack or strike with a whip, aren't we?? That's my impression and it never occurred to me until now that "Smack your horse" might mean more than one smack.
So are there situations where more than one smack in quick succession are / have been necessary? And at what point does this become beating the horse? The ghastly spectacle - which we have all witnessed, I'm sure - of a horse getting a 'thwack! thwack! thwack!' while or, more usually, after refusing a jump comes to mind.
This raises the question: In this thread, we are talking about a single smack or strike with a whip, aren't we?? That's my impression and it never occurred to me until now that "Smack your horse" might mean more than one smack.
So are there situations where more than one smack in quick succession are / have been necessary? And at what point does this become beating the horse? The ghastly spectacle - which we have all witnessed, I'm sure - of a horse getting a 'thwack! thwack! thwack!' while or, more usually, after refusing a jump comes to mind.
Dizzy socks
Well-Known Member
When posting this thread, I was thinking of just one smack, not multiple ones.
popeyesno1fan
Well-Known Member
I think I've smacked him 3 times in 6 years, but it was just reminding him of his manners. For the most part, he behaves so there is no need. I have a pony on trial thats going back on monday, but if she was mine, she would def warrant a few smacks in a week. she has no manners, or boundaries. She's lovely to ride, but is a pig on the ground, and as she's 12.2hh and a kids pony, not something i would entertain. She kicks the walls constantly in the stable, it drives me mad, but thats not something warranting correction. It's her thing. Looking forward to her going home though. have another in the pipeline. fingers crossed. xx
Shantara
Well-Known Member
I saw a lady doing this the other day, it didn't help the situation at all!
I was riding with the group and since we're allowed to ride on the path outside of the village, we were on the wrong side of the road, on the path. We saw a horse and rider coming towards us, quite far off, so I shouted back and said to get off the path and to the other side of the road. All our horses were fine, if a little curious, but the other horse started getting a bit "lookie" and excited and the woman, out of nowhere, thrashed her horse 5 or 6 times on the rump. The horse then really starts acting up, not surprisingly. She eventually gets it under control and gets it to walk past us. Why? Why did it need whipping? I will whip Ned if I feel I really have to, but that's not happened in a long while and I don't think I would have considered it in that situation!
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Depends on the nature of the beast.
An exuberant youngster testing boundaries: a quick rap with the halter end IMMEDIATELY after the behavour and no fuss seems to work.
With older horses who are intelligent and have a fear/attack response. I would just talk to them, they need to have confidence that you will handle them fairly and consistently.
I have dealt with a mare who would attack anyone, she was fearless: we had to use a thick wooden stave to handle her, it was self defence, she did become more normalised after a few months, which included charging down the field at full tilt teeth bared......... I bopped her on the teeth! I still have the scars from our first encounter. Mare 1...me Nil. Eventually were able to groom her not tied up, she preferred this to being tied up, this was a breakthrough..... a compromise!
Kicking when handling feet may be due to dislike [feeling trapped], and they need to be handled regularly to ovecome this. They need to be de-sensitised.
Nasty kicking eg waiting till you or farrier is in a weak position, probably indicates a horse that needs to be handled in a professional manner, treated as a herd animal and never as a pet animal. Usually spoiled by an amateur owner.
An exuberant youngster testing boundaries: a quick rap with the halter end IMMEDIATELY after the behavour and no fuss seems to work.
With older horses who are intelligent and have a fear/attack response. I would just talk to them, they need to have confidence that you will handle them fairly and consistently.
I have dealt with a mare who would attack anyone, she was fearless: we had to use a thick wooden stave to handle her, it was self defence, she did become more normalised after a few months, which included charging down the field at full tilt teeth bared......... I bopped her on the teeth! I still have the scars from our first encounter. Mare 1...me Nil. Eventually were able to groom her not tied up, she preferred this to being tied up, this was a breakthrough..... a compromise!
Kicking when handling feet may be due to dislike [feeling trapped], and they need to be handled regularly to ovecome this. They need to be de-sensitised.
Nasty kicking eg waiting till you or farrier is in a weak position, probably indicates a horse that needs to be handled in a professional manner, treated as a herd animal and never as a pet animal. Usually spoiled by an amateur owner.
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TrasaM
Well-Known Member
This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust.
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I think handler frustration is a big reason the whip comes out in a bashing way. The focus is on the job that MUST be done or the win that must be got at any cost sadly.This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust.
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.
In your example how much wormer did the horse actually get anyway? Pointless exercize all round imo.
TrasaM
Well-Known Member
Half the wormer was put into his feed in the end AND he ate it. So situation could have been avoided. Rest was administered later with the assistance from another friend but he was still freaking out every time he saw his owner approach. She didn't realise why until I told her what had happened earlier.
Shantara
Well-Known Member
This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust.
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.
Ned didn't like the wormer either (who can blame them? Smells like vomit and bleach, goodness knows what it tastes like), getting my whip wouldn't even cross my mind! It was my first time doing it and I held him, while a friend did the wormer. I stroke his face and talked to him. He didn't like it, but he didn't throw a strop. That's another case where I feel whips have no place.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
Whenever I am doing some training and feel my temper might be becoming a bit frayed, or I see someone else in that situation, I think of a documentary on TV about the learning behaviour of chimps!
The chimp was given a series of problems to solve. To reach a banana suspended from the roof of its cage, it was given a stick to knock it down with. Success!
The second task was to stand on a box to use the stick to dislodge a banana suspended a little bit higher. After a bit of experimentation, it succeeded in that too.
Then it had to use two boxes.... Again, success.
Then it was given a stick that was too short.....
After trying hard to solve the problem for a while, the ape flew into a rage and, like a hairy Basil Fawlty, started beating the floor with the stick!
Does that ring any bells?
Some people just don't get it. IF a smack is needed, it needs to be timed and set up so the subject believes it is IT'S action which caused the shock. No animal is intentionally bad or naughty, it has simply been badly programmed (which can happen unintentionally and through no fault of the trainer/owner).
It has been proved in the laboratory (presumably with rats!), that negative stimuli can have a bad effect (sometimes a considerable time) after the "punishment" (for which read smack) was delivered. So, you smack your horse which solves the immediate problem (or not), but you now have a head or stick shy horse. The horse will associate the unpleasant experience with something, but what? It is certainly not going to sit down and work it out, nor do horses have morals. Who or what will it blame?
amandap
Well-Known Member
Just think how different it all could have been if the handler just stopped and thought about it and tried another way in the first place.Half the wormer was put into his feed in the end AND he ate it. So situation could have been avoided. Rest was administered later with the assistance from another friend but he was still freaking out every time he saw his owner approach. She didn't realise why until I told her what had happened earlier.
Loud and clear!
I wonder what would have happened if the chimp was given the short stick first though? He had learned very well that the stick did the trick so perhaps that had a bearing on his tantrum?
Fii
Well-Known Member
This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust.
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.
See i dont get this, she had to go and find a whip to hit it with?
It would take me ages to find a whip to use depending on where i was at the time...so her horse played up, she then decided to get a whip, which took how long?....and then try to beat him into submission? I can see someone getting frustrated/loosing their temper and hitting out with a whip, but surely not in this case as she had some time out to get the whip!
amandap
Well-Known Member
That's why I picked up on the chimp being given a longer stick that worked first. He had learned it worked and perhaps learning was involved in this persons decision to get a stick? Or even in her thinking it was an appropriate tool and way to deal with the situation?
Just musing. We, just like horses generally don't do things for absolutely no reason. We have usually learned or been convinced something will work. If it then doesn't we can get frustrated and even lose our tempers. Just like the chimp.
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TrasaM
Well-Known Member
The chimp story sort of sums it up nicely
I think that using aggression has worked with previous horses. We are not talking about someone new to horses btw. This youngster is an Arab and has a lovely friendly nature. So far. However he's becoming very distrustful of the owner. She also whacks him when ridden if he refuses to move. That's if kicking does not work.
On the plus side I'm learning how not to treat horses.
I think that using aggression has worked with previous horses. We are not talking about someone new to horses btw. This youngster is an Arab and has a lovely friendly nature. So far. However he's becoming very distrustful of the owner. She also whacks him when ridden if he refuses to move. That's if kicking does not work.
On the plus side I'm learning how not to treat horses.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
This is not unusual behaviour for some people. It stems from a lack of imagination and knowledge of alternative ways to work with horses.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
There was a character at a local show smacking a horse back at the horse box because it had played up in the ring! An SSPCA inspector was attempting to explain where the man had got the psychology wrong! I'm afraid my words were a bit more blunt but I doubt if the message got through.
There are some very stupid people in this world, I suspect it is mostly caused by closing their ears to reason; imagination has nothing to do with. How does one "imagine" the correct way to treat a horse or any other animal? It has to be learnt. There is a cure for ignorance but none for stupidity. And I could give an example of that!
