Do you smack your horses?

[Rockchick]

Both my horses are very well mannered both in the stable, in the field, on the yard etc and dont ever push, barge, bite, kick etc on the extremely rare (in fact i cant remember the last time) occasion they "forget" themselves i can usually rectify it by using the training method theyre used to (natuaral horsemanship) and move their bodies about etc, however i have also given them a short sharp smack on occasions... never near their faces / heads though and thats usually enough to remind them - as it never usually happens.

From a ridden perpective I also carry a stick but rarely use it unless they are ignoring my leg / voice etc and i need them to "be" somewhere for whatever reason.

I have on occasion given other horses a short sharp smack where theyve needed it (for example one launched at me over a stable door and went for my face) but again NEVER near their heads

 

[Flicker]

Personally, no. My horse would have a nervous breakdown. He is very well-mannered and responds to pressure and voice. I can't think of any situation where I'd need to smack him.

On the other hand, I was holding a horse for someone else and it bit me on the boob. Hard. It took every ounce of willpower in my body not to plant him one!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

With other people's horses, I always work as though the owner was present and therefore, any action I take, would not be unacceptable to them. In a herd, with an aggressive horse, I carry a lead rope, with the metal end in my hand and if needed, swing the rope in their direction or, if threatening to kick or knock me down, they'd get a flick on the shoulder or rump. I do tell the owner, so they are aware of a problem and we can discuss how to resolve or manage it in a way that is acceptable and effective. Very often, bolshy horses are just 'shouting' loudly and a confident but gentle nudge and verbal command is surprisingly all it takes to take them to back up.

Basically, I see needing to smack as an emergency measure to stay safe, and which highlights a training or management failure that can be addressed. Repeated smacking is a failure on the part of the owner or handler.

 

[xTrooperx]

i dont but i have clapped at him to stop what ever he was doing.. i guess im a little odd

 

[AMH]

Sorry - how can it be possible to compare smacking a half-tonne animal with no skills of verbal communication to smacking a child?

 

[fburton]

Sorry - how can it be possible to compare smacking a half-tonne animal with no skills of verbal communication to smacking a child?

I'm inclined to agree horse / child comparisons are a bit dodgy. However, I read Teambarney's original comment as meaning that in general one should not treat another person's horse as if it were your own - just as you wouldn't treat someone else's child as if it were your own. Maybe TB meant something else, but that's what I understood it to mean.

(Personally speaking, I am a bit naughty in that I will sometimes do what I think is right for the horse that has been given to me to handle, as if it were my own - which could include giving food rewards to encourage certain behaviours even if the owner wasn't particularly keen on that.)

 

[AMH]

Ah, now I'd have to draw the line at feeding - I think that's a different thing, although I can't really explain why! I wouldn't hesitate to smack someone's horse if it bit me (although not on the nose), but wouldn't feed someone's horse, regardless!

 

[amandap]

Deleted.

 

[Spotsrock]

my own, yes, just a light tap as that is how they would address each other, they understand and a polite horse is a safer horse, someone elses? NO. Not unless it is immediatly endangering me, otherwise, their bad manners are their problem, not mine, I would be livid if I thought someone else was smacking my girls or fatboy.

I am constantly battling a family at the yard for feeding my lot, theirs nudge, niggle, grab and bite and they are always moaning about it and wanting to hand feed mine because they are so polite and cute. Mine behave like that because they are not hand fed willy nilly!

 

[fburton]

Ah, now I'd have to draw the line at feeding - I think that's a different thing, although I can't really explain why! I wouldn't hesitate to smack someone's horse if it bit me (although not on the nose), but wouldn't feed someone's horse, regardless!

That's what I thought people would think! I mentioned it to be provocative (and hence, in character ) - although it is actually quite true.

It might be interesting to explore what makes smacking different from treating. I can't really agree they are different - they are both about behaviour modification (or should be!) and both have the potential to cause harm if done improperly.

 

[team barney]

I'm inclined to agree horse / child comparisons are a bit dodgy. However, I read Teambarney's original comment as meaning that in general one should not treat another person's horse as if it were your own - just as you wouldn't treat someone else's child as if it were your own. Maybe TB meant something else, but that's what I understood it to mean.

this^^^ Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line. I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck.

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).

 

[amandap]

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line. I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck.

Also if various people are handling or hitting/smacking a horse in various ways with various rules the horse is in a no win situation. It's not surprising some horses get confused and 'rebel'!

 

[noodle_]

if she hurts me yes of course....but mostly on her flabby bits - its more of a "hey" than anything!

although she lashed out to kick the other day, she got a very sharp crack for that....

i have no objection to my friends who i trust putting her in her place - the horse could do me/them far more damage!....

never ever more than once at a t ime if that makes sense lol.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

If my horses barge/hurt me then they get a row, either with voice or hand or both. I have told others who are handling my horses that if they stick a toe out of line then wallop them. 500kgs vs 70kgs, no contest really, no respect = pain and accidents for either or both of us depending on the situation.

I only ask for manners when I am there with them, they can do what they like the other 20 hours of the day.

 

[Amaranta]

Are you comparing yourself to "herd leader"? How can you tell which horse is the "leader" in a herd? And is this horse protected from being kicked by virtue of "leader" status?

Yes and yes, if you watch horses, the true herd leader does very little, it is the 2nd in line who does all the work.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

this^^^ Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line. I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck.

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).

So I am in a shared field getting my horse out and yours comes over as I am coming out of the gate and tries to go over the top of me, shouting and waving the leadrope is doing nothing horse still continues to come, i hate to tell you but after that i would be walloping it before horses and people end up hurt.

 

[cob&onion]

My TB bit me finger once expectantly and it really bloody hurt!! my instant reaction was a smack on the nose - she never did it again!!
I don't normally smack my horses though, infact i rarely shout at them neither, but they are well behaved and have good mannors

 

[fburton]

Yes and yes, if you watch horses, the true herd leader does very little, it is the 2nd in line who does all the work.

You mean the 2nd is the pushy one? Yes, one sometimes sees that, but as with other aspects of herd dynamics there appear to be no hard and fast rules.

 

[AMH]

this^^^ Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line. I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck.

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).

As with everything, interpretation is key. To me, 'smack' would be tantamount to a slap on the shoulder or an elbow in the ribs. I'd only administer such treatment if the animal wasn't respecting my space and was risking hurting me. I would never hit a horse with anything other than my hand (except of course carrying a stick when riding, lunging or doing groundwork).

Physical chastisement, as far as I'm concerned, goes too far when it results in the animal anticipating it or expecting it as a matter of course, eg with a head shy horse.

There's a fine line between respect and fear, and I think there are some people who just don't undertstand how to tread that carefully.

 

[Pale Rider]

People who smack animals, dogs horses, whatever just prove that they have no clue.

 

[McNally]

Just an observation here! I work on two yards one where the horses done get smacked one where the owner is in my opinion go's too far with them at times.

At yard 1- the horses are generally a bit more difficult in that they may bite or kick when they are being brushed or rugged and they can be strong/bargey to turn out etc

Yard 2- generally i never get threatened with kicks or bites and they lead beautifully- however if on the odd occasion one snaps at me they then spin and lash out in absolute terror as they are expecting a beating- like i say this is very rare as they are easier to handle anyway.

Just something i've noticed and been quite interested in, its like the disciplined ones are better, its worked but maybe its a warning not to over do reprimanding? I am very in between with my horses- they would get told off, maybe smacked if they did something wrong but i wouldn't lay into them- they are all lovely easy well mannered horses- even our 4 year old has never bitten.

 

[fburton]

That is an interesting observation, McNally. I've encountered horses where it's obvious they have been reprimanded before, probably in an over-the-top way like you said. You just need to raise a hand and they will shy their heads away, blinking rapidly. It's sad to see, and it make doing anything near their heads a little bit harder because you need to remember to move ultra softly the whole time. It makes me want to say to them "It's alright, I'm not going to hit you". I want horses to behave nicely, but to feel relaxed in my presence, not constantly wary or fearful of being told off.

 

[Ibblebibble]

can't remember the last time i had to smack one of mine, but i do use my body to block attempts to nibble from the youngster, ie i raise my elbow as he leans in to have a nibble and he gets a bump on the nose, if i'm leading one and they start drifting too close then again the elbow comes out and bumps them, it's not smacking but more a physical deterent always used with a vocal deterent too.
And i use a similar tactic with the daft young mastiff who currently thinks it's fun to jump up at me, if he's close, as he comes off the ground i raise my knee and it meets his chest , it's enough to make him change his mind, if he's doing a flying leap then i move myself out of reach and he flops to the floor like a dropped jelly
I try not to get into physical battles with anything bigger than me, because if it escalates they are going to win every time

 

[Marydoll]

I think it's important to point out that because you discipline your horse with a smack, does not mean you beat the crap out of them, I do smack mine on the rare occasion it's needed, none of my guys are head shy or cower in a corner in my presence.
Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks

 

[fburton]

Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks

No, I think that's right. The quivering wreck situation just shows what can happen if punishment is overdone.

 

[AMH]

I think it's important to point out that because you discipline your horse with a smack, does not mean you beat the crap out of them, I do smack mine on the rare occasion it's needed, none of my guys are head shy or cower in a corner in my presence.
Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks

This, totally sums it up