Do you take colour into account when choosing a stallion?

[bakewell]

Curious on opinions, would you evaluate colour as affecting saleability of offspring in the current (depressing) market?

Specifically, would you disregard a stallion on the basis of colour or deliberately look for one that passes on a trait? (dilution or tobiano say).

Does the type of horse affect that choice? (hypothetical example, coloured WB fine but prefer a solid cob)

Please weigh in with any opinions/ anecdotes you've made a decision based on this.

(I realise a good horse is never a bad colour, but also that breeding is with an eye to producing a calculated result)

Thank-you; very interested to hear input.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Knowing your colours is essential when breeding frame overos as it is lethal in it's homozygous form (OLWS).

I always think that the desired colour should be the cherry on the cake. Everything else must be right first.

With arabs, they should have dark skin if you want to do well showing, avoiding breeding a maximum sabino is wise.

In the future, if I decided to breed from my grey I would ideally want a chestnut foal as it's my favourite horse colour. She is homozygous for chestnut and heterozygous for grey, so if I used a chestnut stallion, it would be 50/50 whether i got a chestnut or chestnut/grey foal. Chestnut is a common colour, so I could find a stallion in that colour that matches her/improves her and has a good temperament, performance record etc... If I was going for a rarer, fancier colour then it becomes much harder as you have less choice, eg Double dilutes.

 

[bakewell]

Knowing your colours is essential when breeding frame overos as it is lethal in it's homozygous form (OLWS).

I've also seen some research to suggest that the silver (as in silver dapple) causes eye problems due to the effect on formation of protein.

I always think that the desired colour should be the cherry on the cake. Everything else must be right first.

With arabs, they should have dark skin if you want to do well showing, avoiding breeding a maximum sabino is wise.

In the future, if I decided to breed from my grey I would ideally want a chestnut foal as it's my favourite horse colour. She is homozygous for chestnut and heterozygous for grey, so if I used a chestnut stallion, it would be 50/50 whether i got a chestnut or chestnut/grey foal. Chestnut is a common colour, so I could find a stallion in that colour that matches her/improves her and has a good temperament, performance record etc... If I was going for a rarer, fancier colour then it becomes much harder as you have less choice, eg Double dilutes.

I love chestnut, especially the flaming deep ones. However I do think the "chestnut mare" thing still persists in some people's heads. I wonder if the greater expression of white does (perhaps subconsciously) affect things like dressage scoring... ie insufficiently sombre or not as easy to accurately register movement.

 

[Moya_999]

Curious on opinions, would you evaluate colour as affecting saleability of offspring in the current (depressing) market?

Specifically, would you disregard a stallion on the basis of colour or deliberately look for one that passes on a trait? (dilution or tobiano say).

Does the type of horse affect that choice? (hypothetical example, coloured WB fine but prefer a solid cob)

Please weigh in with any opinions/ anecdotes you've made a decision based on this.

(I realise a good horse is never a bad colour, but also that breeding is with an eye to producing a calculated result)

Thank-you; very interested to hear input.

Simple answer yes I do along with breed temperament and looks and confermation and stride.

 

[Spring Feather]

Yes I do take colour into account when I breed my mares.

 

[Alec Swan]

I always used to take colour in to consideration, but now and were we still breeding, then no, I wouldn't. Colour now would be my very last consideration.

Alec.

 

[mynutmeg]

It would factor (there are certainly colours I do love and think look amazing) however everything elese such as conformation, temperment, complementing the mare and soundness would have to be met first

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I've also seen some research to suggest that the silver (as in silver dapple) causes eye problems due to the effect on formation of protein.

Interesting.

I love chestnut, especially the flaming deep ones. However I do think the "chestnut mare" thing still persists in some people's heads. I wonder if the greater expression of white does (perhaps subconsciously) affect things like dressage scoring... ie insufficiently sombre or not as easy to accurately register movement.

If in this mythical future, I got a chestnut filly from my grey, that was wonderful in every other way too, I would be seriously thrilled. I love a good chestnut mare. If the foal was a grey, then it would still should have all the other desirable qualities (conformation, temperament, athleticism, trainability etc...) that make a good horse.

I wouldn't say that the arab world is particularly anti chestnut as I've never had an arab person mention it to me. Whereas some non arab people I have come across do bang on about 'chestnut mares' a lot, but then the fact that CM is half arab, chestnut and a mare seemed to be the trifecta that sent them into meltdown!

I do think that white markings look aesthetically nice, but having had an awful summer once treating my gelding for photosensitivity, it has put me off white markings. So my preference now would be for minimal or no white.

 

[bakewell]

Simple answer yes I do along with breed temperament and looks and confermation and stride.

It would factor (there are certainly colours I do love and think look amazing) however everything elese such as conformation, temperment, complementing the mare and soundness would have to be met first

If those factors were met, would any colour/ pattern be sufficient to put you off? Would you say it's valuable to make your youngstock noticeable or to meet a prevailing taste?

Yes I do take colour into account when I breed my mares.

Could I ask what you think is most attractive/ desirable, and which you might find offputting?
Also, does certainty matter (say homozygous coloured) or do you just prefer to tip the odds a little?

Thankyou very much for responses. My only breeding background is in breeds with very limited colour genetics so this is a new consideration for me in planning (the slightly distant) future.

 

[Spring Feather]

Could I ask what you think is most attractive/ desirable, and which you might find offputting?
Also, does certainty matter (say homozygous coloured) or do you just prefer to tip the odds a little?

I breed Hanoverians, Holsteiners and Oldenburgs and I wouldn't breed to a cremello or a tobiano or a grey (unless the mare is grey). I breed to sell so I have to take into account what sells.

I have two homozygous black sabinos so I'm able to choose from pretty much any colour of stallions for them.

I have a homozygous grey mare and I have been searching for a long time for a grey stallion (and there are some that I love but for whatever reason I haven't used them on her yet). I can breed her to whatever colour too though as her foals are always grey so base colour is neither here nor there.

The rest of my mares are bay (some flashy sabinos, some plain). I have always chosen bay stallions for them, and probably always will.

 

[sallyf]

I suppose I breed for colour but only as far as grey , bay ,brown , chestnut and black.
Personally I don't do dilute , coloured etc , but then again as I am trying to breed high class event/showjumpers there isn't much in the dilute/coloured market with enough TB blood/performance or a mix of the 2 for me to warrant looking in that direction.

 

[bakewell]

I breed Hanoverians, Holsteiners and Oldenburgs and I wouldn't breed to a cremello or a tobiano or a grey (unless the mare is grey). I breed to sell so I have to take into account what sells.

I have two homozygous black sabinos so I'm able to choose from pretty much any colour of stallions for them.

I have a homozygous grey mare and I have been searching for a long time for a grey stallion (and there are some that I love but for whatever reason I haven't used them on her yet). I can breed her to whatever colour too though as her foals are always grey so base colour is neither here nor there.

The rest of my mares are bay (some flashy sabinos, some plain). I have always chosen bay stallions for them, and probably always will.

Thank-you, that is very interesting. Particularly regarding grey. If you could elaborate on that I'd be interested, do you think it's less bankable or a harder sell...

I suppose I breed for colour but only as far as grey , bay ,brown , chestnut and black.
Personally I don't do dilute , coloured etc , but then again as I am trying to breed high class event/showjumpers there isn't much in the dilute/coloured market with enough TB blood/performance or a mix of the 2 for me to warrant looking in that direction.

Thank-you very much, this is very useful.

 

[Spring Feather]

Thank-you, that is very interesting. Particularly regarding grey. If you could elaborate on that I'd be interested, do you think it's less bankable or a harder sell...

It's an easier sell if the stallion is grey because those who like that particular stallion are obviously attracted to grey horses. It's a harder sell if the foal is grey but the stallion is some other colour, except if people follow the mare and like her offspring and then the same happens as in my former comment, whereby because the mare is grey and they like her, then they're fine with buying a grey foal.

The easiest sells for me are foals who are either bay or black with big, well marked blazes and tall white stockings (especially 4!). The only foal I am retaining this year is homozygous black, with an enormous blaze and 4 white stockings and she's the one I could have sold 50 times over as black with white markings seems to be so rare these days in WB breeding.

 

[Equi]

Yes. I did not under any circumstances want a chestnut or one with a strong red gene.

 

[lizness]

Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!

 

[bakewell]

Yes. I did not under any circumstances want a chestnut or one with a strong red gene.

Strong red gene? I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Equi]

Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!

Depends on the type of melanoma. My pony was riddled with them on his sheath and anus but was over 30.

 

[bakewell]

Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!

This is a very valid point that I had overlooked a little. Outside of the grey factor do you think/ know if there's a genetic predisposition... ie a stallion who was melanoma free (as far as known) at an older age being preferable.
I guess grey, whilst delightful to look at can be a ticking time bomb in that regard.

 

[bakewell]

Depends on the type of melanoma. My pony was riddled with them on his sheath and anus but was over 30.

Melanoma is the type? And typically it's the ones on the inside that can be most problematic.

 

[Equi]

Melanoma is the type? And typically it's the ones on the inside that can be most problematic.

Yes but i mean some are really aggressive and some are not.

 

[Spring Feather]

This is a very valid point that I had overlooked a little. Outside of the grey factor do you think/ know if there's a genetic predisposition...

Almost all greys will develop melanomas at some point in their life; either external or internal. I love greys, I own a few and when buying a riding horse I'm more than happy to buy a grey but I wouldn't buy another grey broodmare unless she was as exceptional as the one I have now; not because of melanomas but because their foals are not so easy to sell in the WB market.

 

[bakewell]

Almost all greys will develop melanomas at some point in their life; either external or internal. I love greys, I own a few and when buying a riding horse I'm more than happy to buy a grey but I wouldn't buy another grey broodmare unless she was as exceptional as the one I have now; not because of melanomas but because their foals are not so easy to sell in the WB market.

Also the cremellos that hide their greying... you really need to test for the gene as it's not visible at all. Seen two of those.

I had noted fewer greys in the WB market (apart from SJ where most things are second to the pop). My interest is Iberian horses so unfortunately some of the most ancient/ well regarded bloodlines are often homozygous grey, I imagine similar in some arab lines.

Your sabino comments have really given me food for thought though. Thanks!

 

[Spring Feather]

I had noted fewer greys in the WB market (apart from SJ where most things are second to the pop).

Yes there's quite a lot of grey Holsteiners and a lesser amount of grey Oldenburgs in the SJ world, but you rarely see any grey Hanoverians nowadays.

Your sabino comments have really given me food for thought though. Thanks!

What colour is your mare, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[bakewell]

What colour is your mare, if you don't mind me asking?

She's (ostensibly) bright bay. *but* before I got her she bred some foals and one was a double dilute, by a buckskin stallion.
So I need to have her tested. There's a possibility she's either a very bay looking buckskin or carries pearl (or who knows because all things lurk in spanish horses coat genetics!). The other thing is dun/ buckskin/ things that could possibly be that were not eligible for registration until recently so were often described as "bay".
Right now she's just disgustingly furry and mucky but in summer she's a very very bright bay with a gold/ orange cast. And very black points.

 

[Spring Feather]

Interesting. Let us know once you get the DNA results. And a piccy of her would be nice

 

[bakewell]

Interesting. Let us know once you get the DNA results. And a piccy of her would be nice

I'm getting a horsey photoshoot for christmas so hopefully when spring coats come in I'll have something better than my appalling efforts! (and we're moving so a better backdrop too! this farm is very... functional but 70's atcost)

 

[Spring Feather]

Excellent. Look forward to seeing her.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Strong red gene? I'm not sure I understand.

I also want to know what Equi means by this.

*confused*

 

[Char0901]

It was the last thing I thought of really. I was looking for a stallion for my eventing mare, wanted something for SJ and maybe eventing.
The stallion I chose suited my mare to a 'T', for me it was just a bonus he was grey. The stallion I chose is by Calido 1, so quite a bit of grey down that line. I now have a lovely 18 month old grey, with a blaze and 2 white socks, however at this rate, they will be gone by this time next year! He went grey very early, he was born a light Bay, and by 4 months old was well into greying out.
I must add, I only bred him for myself and I will never sell him. However, I think he his nicely enough bred to appeal to a general market. I've had one offer which I politely declined as he's going nowhere. It is nice to know that others like what you have bred.

 

[TheMule]

I struck gold with my first foal- dam is plain bay, no white, knew bay was coming from her sire but her dam is grey and I had no idea what her base colour was,. Stallion is bay with plenty of white, definite red factor carrier through his sire.
I got a chestnut filly, sabino with plenty of white. My favourite!!