do you think putting a 14.3h mare to a 16.1 stallion is too big for her first time??

showqa said:
So, what would you put to a 15hh TB mare, nice quality and actually not so fine although an ex - sprinter. Would you aim to breed something that would make 15.2hh max and if so what size stallion would you look at? What breed of stallion - something with a bit more bone? Just interested - and learning!
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Depends what you WANT to breed. Is it for you - or for sale - that's the first question! If for sale, then I would use a 'fashionably bred' Warmblood - about 16.1 max. Or POSSIBLY a very good performance Connemara - to produce a good junior competition horse!

If for yourself, then obviously it depends on what's important to YOU!
 
speighty79 said:
Hmm so what would you say about this a 16hh kwpn mare put to 17hh clydesdale stallion which generally throws small foals..?? this would be her first foal.. It's not me breeding, I zero experience on that front and have no intention on doing so either. I'm just asking as a friends away to breed that
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AAAGGGHHH! The golden rule of breeding - breed type to type! A KWPN is not a pure-bred (the Dutch grab any breed of stallion they fancy and grade it as KWPN) - so there could be all sorts of genes in the mix. The Clydesdale is a draft horse. Mix the two and you MIGHT get the 'best' of both breeds - or you could easily get the worst of both! Clyde legs carrying a relatively puny KWPN body - or - possibly worse - a hefty lump of a horse on stick like legs!

Crazy!
 
My horses mother was 14hh PBA & his father was 18hh Shire. It was a terrible birth and he had to be hauled out of her, he has a funny muscle in his back leg due to this, it makes him walk like he has stringhalt until it has warmed up.

What ever the hell went on there, god knows. Luckily he did get the best of both mother & father and is a strapping beast and competed advanced dressage until age caught up with him bless. He was pretty much as big as his mother at a month old lol.


I know zilch about breeding, but it would figure that stature plays a big part in it. I would still go for something not hugely out for a mares first time though, but if you are breeding the same breed together then the chances of that being the case anyway are pretty high right?
 
Janetgeorge, what about the likes of irish drafts x TB..??? Does that rule then apply to them as I see those for sale all the time and CD x TB etc..??
 
my mare is technically only about 14.3. she realy measures aprox 15hh, but has high bony withers.... so is a cheat! :p

i put her to a 16hh sports horse stallion. this was her first foal and there were no problems at all.

my mare is 1/2 arab, 1/4 conn 1/4 welsh. she's not exactly petite, but my no means chunky. the stallion is much more substantial, and im really hoping that he will have passed on his chest to the filly, as my mare is quite narrow chested... well compared to her well sprung arab ribs! :D

good luck with everything, which ever way you chose to go. ;)
 
I was thinking about putting my mare into foal with a larger stallion, but there are such huge risks involved, it seemed more sensible to buy progeny with better bloodlines for less from the stallion your proposing. I adore my mare and she would have an amazing foal but i just cant stand the risks :)
 
speighty79 said:
Janetgeorge, what about the likes of irish drafts x TB..??? Does that rule then apply to them as I see those for sale all the time and CD x TB etc..??
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all 3 of those are defined and specific breed types, not a heinz 57 with a kwpn label

a kwpn can be anything from a heavy lump with bad conformation to a fine blood type horse- and everything in between. remember- when you breed, genes are passed down from previous generations as well!! just because a kwpn might be an almost perfect build, you just don't know what will be passed down
 
speighty79 said:
Janetgeorge, what about the likes of irish drafts x TB..??? Does that rule then apply to them as I see those for sale all the time and CD x TB etc..??
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ID x TB is fine - although again - you need to be sensible about size! Particularly for natural cover!!) My RID boy is a stonking BIG 17hh - I wouldn't use him on a little 15hh sprint type TB - he'd START by squashing her! :rolleyes: But there are some smaller RID stallions around that would be a reasonable idea. The ID is a big performance horse, not a true draft breed.

The ID also has TB in its recent breed history.
 
Kenzo said:
Yes, because you will end up with a horse with either a poor conformation or issues caused by this, big front ends and weak small back ends, narrow chests, short legs, for example, obviously breeding from a well put together dam and sire half if it but they need to be be similar in type and height to breed a good quality foal, you should always breed to improve on what you've got to start with.

My horse is a good example of what you get by using a large sire to a small mare, as much as I love him he has his faults which are no doubt related to this.
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There would be no warmbloods around if breeders had kept to the same type/size. Warmbloods came about by the cross breeding of cold bloods (Draft) and hot bloods (Arabs TB's) - hence the title 'Warmblood'

I breed Sporthorses - I have a Clydesdale mare and breed her to TB stallions. When the last foal was three months old I was offered $10,000 for her. Her conformation is exellent - she is a heavier version of her father with her mothers great temperement and constitution.

There is an old saying - 'Breed Blood over Bone' it definately works. My first foal had a lovely but plain Holsteiner sire. The resulting youngster is lovely but has gone to the heavier side as it was also in his sires blood lines. He has excellent conformation bu his head is larger than I would have liked. I now stick to using TB's and may consider an Arab, but am not too keen on the possibility of the Arab quarters.
 
I want to pick up on the warmblood thing here if I may. Don't forget that none of the warmbloods are breeds. They are registries. If you choose to breed your mare to a warmblood, any warmblood, then yes absolutely you can get a good idea of the genetics in play. These are all registered horses with heritage. All you need to do if you are interested in past progeny or standards is to follow the bloodlines back and you'll see what genetic traits you're offspring are likely to inherit. It's not rocket science. Most of these horses parentage goes back centuries if you're so inclined to research it. KWPN is no different from almost all of the other WB registries, excluding a couple who have tried to cap their "purity" and have a good grip on only allowing high calibre horses to enter their studbooks. Apart from these couple of studbooks, all the other WB registries are much of a much so there's no need to decry the KWPN for doing what almost all the other registries are doing. No, KWPNs are not Heinz57s, or at least no more so than Oldenburg, Selle Francais, Swedish Warmblood, Danish Warmblood or many of the smaller German studbooks. These pedigrees go back hundreds of years. That's not the same as out and out crossbreds with dams and sires unknown. Sorry I'm a Hanoverian and Oldenburg breeder, not a KWPN breeder and I don't hold any KWPN stock but it's unfair for anyone to claim that these KWPN horses are Heinz57 muts, because they aren't. They are simply another WB registry.

Sometimes I wonder whether people really understand the WB registries. No they're not "purebreds" in the same vein as TBs or Arabs but yes their parentage can still be shown and proven so don't diss them unless you have full understanding of them.
 
I love this thread. This is the best of H & H, and what it should be about. Interesting, knowledgeable, civilised and sensible differences of opinion and I'm actually learning something!!! I'm even going to re - read it. Thanks to all who have contributed!
 
Thanks this has been interesting, I'm not sure as the to reasons why she is crossing the kwpn, but she is a breeder and seems to think the foal she will get will be good, I have just looked at the mares breeding as it's on that all pedigrees thing and once you get back the first few generations which all are typed of warmbloods it looks like most are TB's. I actually used to own this mare, so I do hope it all works out and something does not happen to her in foaling, she a very sweet little thing. I guess they know what they are doing though.
 
Holly Hocks said:
I went to a vets talk on breeding early this year....it was quite in depth. The vet who was doing the talk told us that a horse was the only animal where the foal would not grow too big for the mare, under any circumstances. So unlike cows, where if you put a massive bull to a dainty little Jersey you will invariably get problems, the same doesn't ever happen in horses....I didn't know that before I went to this lecture!
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Sorry, but I do not agree with this. I have first hand experience which completely contradicts this theory, we lost one mare and foal (she was the same size as the stallion) and in the second case, the foal was well and truly stuck and a calving jack had to be used by the vet, it was touch and go, but thankfully they both survived. This mare was a hand smaller than the stallion.
Also, Jersey cows are frequently put to large bulls and calve easily. They have a reputation for being able to calve anything.
 
Spring Feather said:
I want to pick up on the warmblood thing here if I may. Don't forget that none of the warmbloods are breeds. They are registries. If you choose to breed your mare to a warmblood, any warmblood, then yes absolutely you can get a good idea of the genetics in play. These are all registered horses with heritage. All you need to do if you are interested in past progeny or standards is to follow the bloodlines back and you'll see what genetic traits you're offspring are likely to inherit. It's not rocket science. Most of these horses parentage goes back centuries if you're so inclined to research it. KWPN is no different from almost all of the other WB registries, excluding a couple who have tried to cap their "purity" and have a good grip on only allowing high calibre horses to enter their studbooks. Apart from these couple of studbooks, all the other WB registries are much of a much so there's no need to decry the KWPN for doing what almost all the other registries are doing. No, KWPNs are not Heinz57s, or at least no more so than Oldenburg, Selle Francais, Swedish Warmblood, Danish Warmblood or many of the smaller German studbooks. These pedigrees go back hundreds of years. That's not the same as out and out crossbreds with dams and sires unknown. Sorry I'm a Hanoverian and Oldenburg breeder, not a KWPN breeder and I don't hold any KWPN stock but it's unfair for anyone to claim that these KWPN horses are Heinz57 muts, because they aren't. They are simply another WB registry.

Sometimes I wonder whether people really understand the WB registries. No they're not "purebreds" in the same vein as TBs or Arabs but yes their parentage can still be shown and proven so don't diss them unless you have full understanding of them.
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^^ thank you for explaining this alot better than i could!! (especially at 1am lol)

i meant heinz 57 as a broad term, not to denote complete rubbish but IMHO the KWPN is not quite as regulated a breed as a Oldenburg or Selle Francais (we've had/ have brood mares of both- they are superb little horses) and you seem to get a lot more variation in conformation and body types in the KWPN

I like some of the KWPN individually, but personally I would not breed them unless to another WB of a similar stamp
 
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Cadfael&Coffee said:
^^ thank you for explaining this alot better than i could!! (especially at 1am lol)

i meant heinz 57 as a broad term, not to denote complete rubbish but IMHO the KWPN is not quite as regulated a breed as a Oldenburg or Selle Francais (we've had/ have both- superb little horses) and you seem to get a lot more variation in conformation and body types in the KWPN

I like some of the KWPN individually, but personally I would not breed them unless to another WB of a similar stamp
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I didn't take it as a criticism of warmbloods generically just thought there could more range In the outcome when breeding. A friend had a lovely kwpn mare and when I looked at her breeding she had King of Diamonds in there!
 
I don't think height would b an issue. I stable on a livery yard that is also an Irish Draught stud. They often have mares in around 14.2-15hh and as far as I'm aware have had no issues.

Something to consider more than height is the amount of bone. I.e if your mare is dainty, she might mind it more difficult to carry and foal something stocky? It's why often when crossing TBs and shires they use a shire mate and TB stallion and not the other way round?
 
What an interesting thread. I thought I'd read that large foals can sometime be born a little deformed (windblown?) because of lack of room in the uterus.

I've never bred horses but do breed dogs. My breed is natural in shape and rarely has problems but some others, such as Boston Terriers, have disproportionately large heads and often need caesarian sections.

It is interesting that there is little variation in puppy size between the breeds. A newborn Chihuahua might weigh in at 6 ounces and an Otterhound might be 16 ounces, yet the Chihuahua mum would be smaller than the Ottehound's head !

With dogs the conformation of the pup makes a much greater difference than size in whelping. The problems occur when the head or shoulders are too big to pass through the birth canal.
 
Interesting thread:)

Does it make a difference to how well a mare copes after the birthing if she has a whopper of a foal and she is only small herself, will she be dragged down by trying to feed a larger foal or do they seem to cope equally well or do they require more feed managment etc?
 
Cadfael&Coffee said:
^^ thank you for explaining this alot better than i could!! (especially at 1am lol)

i meant heinz 57 as a broad term, not to denote complete rubbish but IMHO the KWPN is not quite as regulated a breed as a Oldenburg or Selle Francais (we've had/ have brood mares of both- they are superb little horses) and you seem to get a lot more variation in conformation and body types in the KWPN

I like some of the KWPN individually, but personally I would not breed them unless to another WB of a similar stamp
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That's okay, I used Heinz57 in the same meaning as you :) and I agree that KWPN is not as well regulated as many of the other WB registries. The variations with KWPN is all over the place unlike other registries who are much more discerning about what types they allow into their studbooks. BUT the KWPN horses still have pedigrees, maybe some don't come with such quality bloodlines and others do. They're too wishywashy really and don't seem to have a clearcut vision of what they want the overall type to be as standard. So we're reading from the same page on that, but I wanted to make the point that they're not out and out crossbreeds :)
 
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