Do you think that it's OK to whack a horse so hard that it...

Faracat said:
My intention was merely to start an adult conversation on the use/misuse of the whip with horses, not to have a go at the OP of that thread. Yes, this thread was inspired by the later justifications that were written on that thread. I do think that the topic does need discussing sensibly.
Click to expand...

Also thumping them in the ribs! I think using the whip for a horse who's behind the leg is probably better than continuous pony club style kicking, as it's less likely to bruise. Neither is ideal obviously.
 
Faracat said:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?732293-I-feel-AWFUL
Click to expand...

Whilst I sit here and say no, not unless it is to stop something dangerous, the horse was a 'drama queen and rude - all the way around' hindsight is a wonderful thing but if my horse was like this... I would not be wanting to carry on the hack and beat the bejesus out of it, I would be wanting to get it calmly and safely back to the yard and making calls to vets/chiro/dentist/saddle fitter etc...
 
I would say in completely depends on the situation and most of the time if someone hit there horse they would never intend to leave a mark. I know I have been guilty of doing it where I have been so frustrated and completely regretted it straight away! I have also been in the original OP situation numerous times before with my pony and I can say its not a nice thing to deal with reversing into a ditch quite often with back legs going down it. Although I never hit her when she did this as she would have reversed even quicker I would try and turn her and boot her as quickly as I could or last 'ditch' attempt jump off.

We are humans we make mistakes, the aim is to learn from them and improve ourselves.
 
Personally no, I don't. Though I accept that sometimes accidents happen (such as in the linked thread). However, I know people who think nothing of it and it does sadden me as nothing I say will change their mind.
 
No never, my poor horse has a criss-cross mass of scars on his quarters which only become apparent when he's clipped, they are too straight and regular to have been self-inflicted.
One day my daughter picked up my schooling whip, which he doesn't object to at all when being ridden, and slashed it around outside my horses stable and my poor boy shot to the back of the box and cowered there, shaking with fear. It was pitiful to see and heartbreaking, god only knows what was done to him in the past.
 
Pigeon said:
Also thumping them in the ribs! I think using the whip for a horse who's behind the leg is probably better than continuous pony club style kicking, as it's less likely to bruise. Neither is ideal obviously.
Click to expand...

It makes me so very sad how many people think its ok to kick, kick, kick. I've seen more people than I care to remember really thump their horses in the ribs with their legs :( And even more constantly give small thumps with their legs. I wont allow it on mine and if he is being that way inclined he gets a flick with the whip, if he still doesnt go forward he gets a whallop. I'd rather give him a smack and have him go forward than have him be booted in the ribs.

But hes never ever been marked and I would be really upset if that ever happened. Its not the force of the "wack" that gets him forward, its the noise and the very act of doing it. But saying that if I was in an emergency situation who knows what would happen. I'd like to think nothing but its difficult to be rational when your genuinely frightened and think that a whallop will fix the situation to be careful about how hard you do it. And some horses mark easier than other. I'm pretty sure I could take about my fat cob with a bit of 2x4 with nothing to show externally, but a moderate whack could easily mark a TB type
 
I've always felt it a shame that horses can't cry out like a dog would when in discomfort. I am sure if they could scream people would be less likely to overuse whip/spurs.
 
I find that the most effective ways of moving a nappy horse and avoiding reversing, is to either wave a stick in their eyeline, or to hit your jacket with the long end of the reins, to make a noise which makes the horse move forward (just be ready to go with the rapid forward movement :) )
 
I've lifted my whip in a moment where I think if I hadn't, we'd have reversed into moving traffic. I also think if perhaps I'd had one last weekend, things wouldn't have got to the stage they did.
 
Deltic Blue said:
I think it's a bit harsh to make a separate thread about this, the OP clearly felt horrible about the situation, and it was to stop the horse going down a ditch. These things happen, and she wasn't intentionally smacking the horse with the intent of hurting it!
Click to expand...

This, I think it's bad form to use that thread to try and create a debate on it. The poster clearly felt bad and I don't think it's very nice to use it against them here.
 
Dear god, if we were all hauled up for the sins we have inflicted on horses! I would be the first of the accused ,
 
Deltic Blue said:
I think it's a bit harsh to make a separate thread about this, the OP clearly felt horrible about the situation, and it was to stop the horse going down a ditch. These things happen, and she wasn't intentionally smacking the horse with the intent of hurting it!
Click to expand...

Agree with this. Even if you only started it in relation to the replies from that thread, this thread could certainly still make the poor OP feel worse than she already does.

And no I don't think it's OK to smack a horse that hard under normal circumstances but certainly in a situation where the horse's behaviour is a danger to itself and others it's a necessary evil unfortunately.
 
Under ordinary circumstances, no, and I can honestly say I've never marked any of mine. I would feel horrendous if I did. If the horse is presenting a danger to itself or others and trying to settle it isn't an option, then perhaps. I certainly gave my sister's horse a solid crack once for spinning in traffic (he was napping, not frightened, it was a habit an old owner had allowed to develop) because in that moment he was a danger to me, himself, and everyone else on the road.

I'm certainly not averse to the use of a schooling whip or crop as a training aid, as they're very effective as a backup for the leg when used correctly (and, as others have said, much better than Pony Club kicks!). I usually carry one.
 
fburton said:
Only if the whack was done (or genuinely believed to be needed) to protect people or other horses against harm; i.e. it was an emergency situation. Can you tell us about the circumstances?
Click to expand...

I did this, pony I was riding suddenly stopped and wouldn't move, a stupid idiot in a BMW can full pelt down the lane behind us and pony was not moving so I walked him so hard he jumped forward and the car stopped where we had been.

Broke my whip on his bum and he had a small welt but rather that than both of us squashed.
 
Many people have said to me they don't know why I bother riding with a whip as I never seem to use it. Personally IMO this is a good thing :p I do use my whip however I pick my moments. For example my 5yo can get a bit excited and distracted at times. Last night for example she decided to get a bit dancy out hacking on a track with a nasty 20ish ft drop to the left of us because I had asked her to wait for our companion. Voice didn't work so she received a swift flick on her shoulder from my crop which was enough to get her attention back. Would I have smacked her harder if she was getting dangerously close to the edge and other kinder methods weren't working? Definitely. It's not nice but I'd rather that than me and my beautiful horse getting flung down a cliff.
I do cringe when people over use their whips however. One of my pet hates is when people are to lazy to use their other aids and just sit there wacking the horse with a whip. There seems a few people around by me who are like this, mostly kids but I've seen adults to sadly.
A good rider knows how and when to use a whip and certainly in dangerous situations they are useful where other aids have failed. I would rather be rubbing aloe gel into my horses bums whilst apologising profusely with apples, than see them or myself injured or worse
 
Bernster said:
I think it's bad form to use that thread to try and create a debate on it. The poster clearly felt bad and I don't think it's very nice to use it against them here.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Bernster, I also think this thread is in poor taste but I'm not surprised, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt at passive bullying, that's popular on HHO.
 
dont forget, hitting a horse with a thin whip (ie. Dressage whip) is going to leave a welt a lot quicker/easier than a thicker whip (jumping/hunt style) if the same force is used. Plus a tb type or thin skinned is a lot easier to mark than a heavier/thicker skinned horse - for a whelt to form you could hit the gypsy pony ten times as hard as you would a teeny show pony type!

And tbh, I've done it when younger with a naughty/stubborn/taking the pee pony who would stop at least once at every xc fence. After I got after him properly, he never stopped again. I never had to hit him with the whip again. I doubt I left welts because it was a thick style whip but they were still hard hits. Plus he was a connie so thick skinned!
Sometimes I think it's better to have to hit hard once or twice than to continually using namby pampy Taps on a nappy/stopper. More effective in long run and usually don't have to use whip again.

In the thread that OP used as example, I would definitely have hit the horse hard. It was becoming a very dangerous situation and sometimes the only way to "snap" a horse out of their reaction is a hit with the whip. The rider didn't mean to leave welt - I don't think anyone actually intends to leave a whelt on their horse!!

If I told people what we tried with previous horse to get it going forward I'd be hung tarred and feathered on HHO lol. horse was never harmed but I don't think it would go down well with HHO :p
 
Faracat said:
I think that on reading the thread, I was more shocked by the later posters' placations. EG blaming the horse's breed, the fact it has thin skin or by saying that we've all done it.
Click to expand...
This! I was very surprised that of all the replies there was only me and wagtail that didn't think it was the right thing to do. Although the fact that the OP felt so bad does demonstrate that she is far from in a habbit of beating her horse and just wanted advice about how to avoid such a situation in future BUT some of the REPLIES shaking it off saying it's fine, we've all done it, it's the breed etc really worried me far far more than OP did, yes we have all made mistakes and done things we arent proud of but NO we certainly haven't all hit out horses so hard it left a mark and no it's not ok! (Again not having a pop at OP of that thread who was clearly distraught over it but those replying saying it's fine it's just the breed stick some gel on it and it was right to hit the horse that hard)
 
I for one don't think this thread was started to get at the OP of the other thread. I read it and her pain was clear. In her situation I would have done the same , it was clearly a tricky one. Have I caused welts in my 40 years of riding?, yes, Did I feel bad? yes, Did I mean to? No, Am I more careful now? Yes.
I think it's a discussion worth having, I do not see bullying here, just adult discussion. Faracat has raised a interesting discussion NOT pointed a finger at anyone.
 
Although your intentions were good, I do feel that it was possibly not a great idea to use the other thread as an example, purely because the OP could well see this and feel even worse than she already does. It is a topic that merits debate though

Me - I've marked a few horses in the past, and am thoroughly unrepentent. I didn't do it with the intention of leaving a welt - I did it with the intention of putting a stop to a dangerous situation in both instances. It just so happened that both horses were clipped out TB's.
One turned her bum on another horse, and reversed at it, lashing out - I had to take action before she got to it, and did some serious damage, and she didn't respond to an initial kick/smack/growl. The other was reversing at high speed toward a water filled dyke, and rearing vertically whenever I touched his mouth, so I couldn't turn him away.
I'm sure someone thinks that I should have spotted the signs that **** was about to get real earlier, and dealt with it earlier, but with my hand on my heart, I can say that I got no more than a couple of seconds to do something, and what I did worked, where less action did not.
 
I am very sorry that this thread has come across to some as a thinly veiled attempt at bullying. It was NOT intended that way AT ALL. I'm so glad that Rowan can see what I was getting at. I can only apologise that i didn't make it clearer to the rest of you.

Do people really believe that the thickness of a horse's skin changes depending on the season? As it was stated that it does in that other thread.

Whips are common in the horse world. We should be able to discuss their use in an adult way.
 
Deltic Blue said:
I think it's a bit harsh to make a separate thread about this, the OP clearly felt horrible about the situation, and it was to stop the horse going down a ditch. These things happen, and she wasn't intentionally smacking the horse with the intent of hurting it!
Click to expand...

FfionWinnie said:
I did feel like replying on that thread and saying we have not "all done it" however I expect the poster will learn from this mistake and avoid a repeat.
Click to expand...

This & this.......^

All about context. I have never left a mark on my horse but if i have to smack her hard in a rare situation where it is a last ditch attempt to prevent an accident on the road with traffic coming I will do so. Some horses are thin skinned and mark easier than others.

As a punishment for bad behaviour or in a less dangerous situation -no I don't find that acceptable.
 
Faracat said:
Do people really believe that the thickness of a horse's skin changes depending on the season? As it was stated that it does in that other thread. .
Click to expand...

I confess that I saw that and sniggered! I am actively avoiding responding to that particular poster though, so I stepped away from the "reply" button.

For the record, I don't think you were bullying at all - I know that's not your style. I did think it could be construed that way though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top