FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
You're not alone there, on both counts.
Do you think that it's OK to whack a horse so hard that it...
- Thread starter Meowy Catkin
- Start date
You're not alone there, on both counts.
Fidgety
Well-Known Member
:thumbup::thumbup: xx
HBB
Well-Known Member
:thumbup:
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% with this.
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Out of interest- what would you do in the above scenario? I'm not trying to start a war - I'm genuinely interested in how you would deal with a situation that gives you a split second to stop a horse doing something that could potentially kill or injure itself. it's rider, or another horse.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I find that the most effective ways of moving a nappy horse and avoiding reversing, is to either wave a stick in their eyeline, or to hit your jacket with the long end of the reins, to make a noise which makes the horse move forward (just be ready to go with the rapid forward movement)
With the right horse waving your whip is very effective indeed. It's a technique that I have used with my own nappy mare who would rear if you pushed her on too strongly and the stronger you pushed her on, the higher she would rear. In fact when she was at her worst I would ride her with two schooling whips and if I could feel her *thinking* about balking I would rotate my wrists so that the whips waved up and down. This was amazingly effective at driving her forwards and I would loop a finger under her neck strap so that I wouldn't catch her mouth if she sprung forwards - I didn't want to 'punish' her for responding the correct way ie forwards.
Dealing with it before she got het up also really helped reduce the napping as time went on.
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
Honestly? Yes, there are times when I deem it acceptable to use enough force with a whip that it may leave a mark. I value my life far above a bruise on a horses backside. It must be understood that this would only ever be under exceptional, high risk circumstances and never in anger. The intent to cause a mark is never there and it is something that cannot necessarily be predicted.
I have also dragged my dog by his scruff and one of my ferrets my her tail. A chav once baited my dog into a fight with his staffie, my dogs haltie snapped and I had no choice but to grab and drag him to prevent further injury and once I had to pull poor Mayhem by her tail as she was escaping under a fence to a busy road. I would rather cause a few moments of pain to prevent much worse happening. It doesn't mean I want to do it but it is the lesser of two evils. Heck, I would pull a child by their hair if it meant preventing them from running out into traffic!
The important difference in this scenario is the intent to cause harm. If the intent is deliberate then there is a big problem, if done to prevent a further, more dangerous outcome, then I deem it acceptable.
I have also dragged my dog by his scruff and one of my ferrets my her tail. A chav once baited my dog into a fight with his staffie, my dogs haltie snapped and I had no choice but to grab and drag him to prevent further injury and once I had to pull poor Mayhem by her tail as she was escaping under a fence to a busy road. I would rather cause a few moments of pain to prevent much worse happening. It doesn't mean I want to do it but it is the lesser of two evils. Heck, I would pull a child by their hair if it meant preventing them from running out into traffic!
The important difference in this scenario is the intent to cause harm. If the intent is deliberate then there is a big problem, if done to prevent a further, more dangerous outcome, then I deem it acceptable.
Toby_Zaphod
Well-Known Member
I was told by a pro rider many years ago, if you are going to hit a horse because something bad is going to happen hit them once & hit them hard. I questioned this & was told the punishment you have just inflicted is nothing compared to how they are disciplined within the herd by the dominant mare.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Exactly!! It's rarely necessary with a TB mare - but when I rode racehorses MANY years ago, I sometimes hit TB stallions hard enough to mark them - and hard enough for them to KNOW that attacking another horse on the track wasn't acceptable. Rarely do they need it because they're born bad (although I knew one who was evil!) but they get away with naughtiness and it spirals. Lots of ineffectual smacks are a waste of time and energy! A tap is useful to re-inforce the leg in a green horse - but not for much else - it's like a fly swat!
fburton
Well-Known Member
I have to say I think that is a rather poor excuse/justification. For a start, it makes it sound like the dominant mare has some sort of judicial or authoritative role, which I don't believe at all. And in any case, just because horses show violence towards each other on occasion doesn't mean we are also obliged to. We can do much better than that in choosing other means to teach good behaviour.
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ozpoz
Well-Known Member
Well, yes - but the question wasn't about training. As I understood, the question was "Is it acceptable in a dire emergency to avoid harm to horse or rider?"
So, not as an excuse or justification for poor training methods but there are emergency situations where you might well be thought of as negligent if your horse didn't respond, and you did nothing. In those situations, a mark could well be better than a life threatening injury, to me anyway.
So, not as an excuse or justification for poor training methods but there are emergency situations where you might well be thought of as negligent if your horse didn't respond, and you did nothing. In those situations, a mark could well be better than a life threatening injury, to me anyway.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I don't accept that in a dire emergency hitting a horse exceptionally hard is going to necessarily bring about a safe out come.
Should we carry a bit of fence post around to really get the message across?
I have a horse which I know straight from the horse's (dealer's) mouth was "disciplined" with alcothane pipe. You could have hit her as hard as you like and she didn't care. She also was completely unruly and terrible to handle so all the hitting hadn't changed her behaviour in the slightest.
I spent three weeks teaching her to behave properly and despite the fact she also napped, reared and was VERY dangerous to handle I did not resort to hitting her.
Now she has been here over a year and is a very pleasant horse to deal with in all ways and no longer naps or does any of the poor behaviours she demonstrated when I bought her. Recently I had an accident so she has been turned out to grass for 3 months almost. I caught her and walked her into the trailer yesterday, took her to the vets and she behaved impeccably.
My lessons stuck with her. The stick lessons did not.
Should we carry a bit of fence post around to really get the message across?
I have a horse which I know straight from the horse's (dealer's) mouth was "disciplined" with alcothane pipe. You could have hit her as hard as you like and she didn't care. She also was completely unruly and terrible to handle so all the hitting hadn't changed her behaviour in the slightest.
I spent three weeks teaching her to behave properly and despite the fact she also napped, reared and was VERY dangerous to handle I did not resort to hitting her.
Now she has been here over a year and is a very pleasant horse to deal with in all ways and no longer naps or does any of the poor behaviours she demonstrated when I bought her. Recently I had an accident so she has been turned out to grass for 3 months almost. I caught her and walked her into the trailer yesterday, took her to the vets and she behaved impeccably.
My lessons stuck with her. The stick lessons did not.
Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
Not trying to argue I'm also curious how you would handle a dangerous situation where you only had a few seconds to get the horse under control or risk serious injury to yourself the horse and others e.g I believe an earlier poster gave an example where the horse had reared and spun into the middle of a 60mph on a blind bend with traffic coming and she had to hit the horse to make it dart back to a safer position.
Toby_Zaphod
Well-Known Member
Errr, the dominant female has an authoritive role within the herd. When a horse is reversing backwards towards a steep incline & you are both going over that with inevitable disasterous results lets think of another way & discus the matter with the horse & see if we can choose other means to teach good behaviour? Sometimes a crack with the whip is what needs to be done, not always, but sometimes there is no other choice.
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FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be in that situation on the road in the first place.
You can't reliably count on hitting a horse and hoping it will make it dart the right way as a get out of death by RTC. What if if made the situation worse, how do you control the outcome to be sure that will be a better situation? At the end of the day people can do what they like with their own horses but I can't see the argument that hitting it hard enough to mark it, is going to do anything better than hitting it less hard or preferably not hitting it and instead finding another way to train it in the first place.
I'm no holier than thou bunny hugger, indeed I am probably tougher on my horses than the majority of people. However the things I do are understood by the horse. No horse learns properly just by being hit, surely we agree on that?
If you want to hit them, it has to be timed correctly to make it count, otherwise the horse does not associate the hit for the behaviour.
For instance I watched someone slapping her supposed beloved horse on the nose for biting. Did it stop it biting, no, did it make it flap it's head around when hands were raised, yes! I knew I could stop that horse in a few minutes but I wouldn't have hit it. Timing is everything and most people don't have it.
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Beausmate
Well-Known Member
Sometimes they are so panicked/wound up that nothing will stop them. It's a bit like trying to pull up a bolter.
I clouted my horse upside the head (I was mounted) in a desperate, last-ditch attempt to turn him away from the direction in which he was intending to go. It didn't work in the slightest, in fact I think hitting him would only have worked if it had knocked him out.
I'm just glad the people in the car he jumped on top of weren't injured.
There wasn't a mark on him, but I would never, ever intentionally hit a horse in the face under normal circumstances.
Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
You haven't really answered my question
answering like a politician hehe (joke). No I agree I personally wouldn't take an unpredictable horse on a road like that and yes I certainly agree hitting is not the way I want to train and educate my horse.I'm just merely curious as to how you would handle and emergency situation like my example of the road and blind bend? Or for example a horse rearing and spinning near the edge of a sheer drop? If nicer methods had failed or you literally only had a few seconds to react
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fburton
Well-Known Member
It's a role some ascribe to the 'alpha', but I don't think it is really the case. It doesn't seem relevant here, though, because we're not talking about training or "teaching a horse a lesson", but rather preventing something bad from happening.
No argument there (see my first post #3).
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
This was my horse, who had never done that before and for the previous 8 years had hacked across that junction almost every day without a flicker.You haven't really answered my question
I'm just merely curious as to how you would handle and emergency situation like my example of the road and blind bend? Or for example a horse rearing and spinning near the edge of a sheer drop? If nicer methods had failed or you literally only had a few seconds to react
I have no idea what caused it that day, i had all sorts of investigations carried out on him and never did find out why.
How do you propose to never put yourself in that situation? I had what for 8 years had been a very reliable horse who had been totally safe in traffic and never even thought of rearing. It was not a new situation for the horse, nor had anything changed?
When the horse in question died he was 25 years old and I had owned him for 15 years, that day is seared into my memory as the only time in those 15 years where the horse reared and the only time he ever put me in a dangerous situation
_HP_
Well-Known Member
No I don't think it's OK...
I don't ride with a whip....
I don't ride with a whip....
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FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
You haven't really answered my question
I'm just merely curious as to how you would handle and emergency situation like my example of the road and blind bend? Or for example a horse rearing and spinning near the edge of a sheer drop? If nicer methods had failed or you literally only had a few seconds to react
That's like asking me how I would take a non jumper round Badders XC, I just wouldn't be in that situation!
I wouldn't be on an unpredictable horse and I certainly wouldn't have it on a road or a dangerous drop.
The horse I mentioned I worked on the ground in safe situations for a long long time before I took it on a road, and the roads I deal with are not as dangerous as that. So I cannot imagine getting myself into a situation like that hence I wouldn't need to find a way out of it.
My main point however is that you cannot control the outcome of whacking them hard and you also can't say hitting them harder is going to give you a "better" outcome either so why try and justify it.
Incidentally with every napper I've owned I've let them walk back into a safe (ie not too deep and not full of sharps) ditch. It is the quickest way to teach them walking backwards isn't clever. I also let one walk into my tractor at home (as it's fairly indestructible) and that cured her of walking into things too as she taught herself that it was flipping uncomfortable to do such a stupid thing. It was her choice to do it, and she learned from it for life. Far better than me whacking her one would have taught her.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
It was my horse mentioned, I owned that horse for 15 years and that episode was the only time he ever reared and the only time he ever put us in danger.
The horse was normally totally safe in traffic, schooled to advanced medium level dressage, I'd owned him 8 years at that point and he had NEVER even thought of rearing and had hacked out across that same junction almost every day for the previous 8 years. Nothing had changed, the horse was thourghly investigated afterward and nothing found, so please do tell me how you could have predicted the startlingly out of character behaviour and consequently prevented it?
Please do tell me how you would have dealt with the situation that was occurring? the horse was in extreme danger, I was in extreme danger, the horse was ignoring both leg and voice aids and having a hysterics in the middle of the road, I could not get him to turn back even, so I did the only thing left open to me which was to smack him (which he hated) and hope he went either forwards or backwards (I didn't perticularly care which)
In the 7 years after that he never did anything like it either
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Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
Sorry I should have explained myself better. I meant I would not take a known napper or rearer down a busy road. If your horse had never done anything like that before then of course there wasnt any way you could have known what was going to happen.
Obviously though ANY horse can have a moment hence why simply saying "I would never put myself in that situation" isn't really answering the question of how would you handle it. Even the most bombproof horse may panic and if you only had a few seconds to react I'm interested to know what those who say they would never hit a horse would do in a life or death emergency situation, and as of yet no one has actually answered this question
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Equi
Well-Known Member
This. This thread is cruel. I expected better from you faracat. I can understand why you have posted it, but im sure the OP is feeling even worse now.
No we have no all done it, and it is definitely NOT something anyone would want to brag about. Horses need firm handling some times, but marking them is unacceptable. I don't even use whips to drive most of the time cause i'm afraid of them being hurt.
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FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I have answered you equine dream, it's not the hitting I have a problem with per say it's the" hitting them hard enough to mark them, is more likely to save you from some unknown danger" suggestion I am taking issue with. I also believe that quite rarely will a human have good enough timing to successfully hit a horse and get the outcome they need in the long term.
You want to hit your horse feel free but you aren't going to convince me that one of my horses is suddenly going to rear in the middle of the road on a blind bend with a sheer drop to the side and that I will suddenly decide my only option is to thrash it to save our lives, because it is not going to happen.
Do I ride with a stick, yes, do I touch my horses with it, yes, have I ever marked any horse in any sort of situation in my entire 30 odd years of riding all types and breeds, no! If someone else did as a one off mistake, would I condemn them, no, but let's not dress it up as "its ok in an emergency" because it's not.
You want to hit your horse feel free but you aren't going to convince me that one of my horses is suddenly going to rear in the middle of the road on a blind bend with a sheer drop to the side and that I will suddenly decide my only option is to thrash it to save our lives, because it is not going to happen.
Do I ride with a stick, yes, do I touch my horses with it, yes, have I ever marked any horse in any sort of situation in my entire 30 odd years of riding all types and breeds, no! If someone else did as a one off mistake, would I condemn them, no, but let's not dress it up as "its ok in an emergency" because it's not.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Personally I would never let go of the rein to use a whip. I would never have reason to hit a horse harder than I could with a wrist flick (I only ever use dressage whips, or hit on the shoulder when jumping).
And yes I will sometimes tap up if Jake isn't concentrating or is genuinely being lazy, but I wouldn't do it to tell him off. Although I did use one to train him, he went through a phase of swinging his bum into the road when asked to work on a hack, because he was being lazy and knew that I would then stop asking him to work for a minute to try and get him to move out of the road. So then anytime he went to move his bum that way he got a flick with the whip on that side. Took all of 5 mins for him to realise it was no longer the favourable option.
I would not condemn anyone who has done so when in genuine danger.
And yes I will sometimes tap up if Jake isn't concentrating or is genuinely being lazy, but I wouldn't do it to tell him off. Although I did use one to train him, he went through a phase of swinging his bum into the road when asked to work on a hack, because he was being lazy and knew that I would then stop asking him to work for a minute to try and get him to move out of the road. So then anytime he went to move his bum that way he got a flick with the whip on that side. Took all of 5 mins for him to realise it was no longer the favourable option.
I would not condemn anyone who has done so when in genuine danger.
Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to convince you of anything and have no desire to hit any of my horses so kindly do not put words in my mouth or suggest I hit my horses as nothing could be further from the truth I can assure you.
And I'm afraid simply saying "I wouldn't be in that situation" isn't answering the question. I'm not trying to convince you that hitting the horse is the only option in an emergency I am simply asking what other options you feel you could use in that situation and as of yet you haven't really given any. I also don't think anyone has said it's OK to hit a horse so hard you mark them. I know I certainly haven't. All people have said is that sometimes it is a necessary evil to avoid greater harm. Unless you can suggest other ways to deal with the situations people have discussed here?
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I'm interested to know what those who say they would never hit a horse would do in a life or death emergency situation, and as of yet no one has actually answered this question
Die.
Personally I'd rather mark the horse. Seems the lesser of two weevils to me
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
So if one hard hit with a whip isn't your answer what is? You haven't answered the question and are clearly avoiding answering the question.
If you had bothered to read my posts you would see that the behaviour was totally out of character and unpredictable, so whilst it's all very well to say you wouldn't be in that position, that is total BS as it can happen to anyone, on any horse at anytime.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
I'm in the very privileged position of owning an actual bombproof safe horse. He would hack down the M1
He can have months off and be ok for me to ride as a crappy disabled rider. He does pony rides for 5yr olds. I happily pop anyone up on him to go hacking etc, etc. The only time he has EVER done anything remotely scary is when a vintage car went past us. The noise was horrific, so bad I could feel it in the air. He was fine until it got level and accelerated and he panicked. He shot forward and I socked him in the gob. Not something I would EVER do normally, but I needed to get him back and thinking logically. While it wasnt a huge whallop, it was something I feel uncomfortable about doing and did no doubt cause pain. But it did exactly what it was designed to do. If he hadnt been socked in the gob like that I'm certain he would have ran on panicking. It took him a while to calm down afterwards and I could feel his heart thumping. He was genuinely upset beyond the norm.
It was a short, sharp shock that brought him back and allowed him to work it out, so not dissimilar to a whallop. Nothing I could have done would have prevented his reaction to that specific set of circumstances,