Do you think that it's OK to whack a horse so hard that it...

[Meowy Catkin]

I have talked about an alternative to hitting and that is waving the whip. You can wave them fast enough for them to make a noise as they pass through the air.

I know that if I smacked my chestnut mare while she was backing up, even towards traffic or a ditch, that smacking her would make her do one of two things. 1, back up faster or 2, rear. Waving the whip will drive her forwards, or if she's thinking about whipping round, prevent that if the whip is on the side that she spins towards.

 

[conniegirl]

I have talked about an alternative to hitting and that is waving the whip. You can wave them fast enough for them to make a noise as they pass through the air.

I know that if I smacked my chestnut mare while she was backing up, even towards traffic or a ditch, that smacking her would make her do one of two things. 1, back up faster or 2, rear. Waving the whip will drive her forwards, or if she's thinking about whipping round, prevent that if the whip is on the side that she spins towards.

Do you honestly think I hadn't tried waving the whip at him? He was already on his hind legs, I didn't perticularly care if he shot forwards or backwards provided we got out of the middle of the road before we were hit by something

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I don't know what you tried - I wasn't there.

However I have never said that a smack shouldn't be considered, or indeed done if it's a life or death situation. With my horse though, the smack would almost certainly not help.

 

[Illusion100]

Everytime I've been in a dire enough situation to give a horse a proper crack it's done exactly what it was supposed to, send it forwards. Would I do it again under similar circumstances, absolutely. At times like that I'm not going to see if waving a whip will work because there aren't enough spare seconds if it doesn't.

Of course there are horses that react badly to a smack, there are also horses that throw their teddies out over a correctional tap. The point is what to do when time and options are beyond sparse and danger/injury is closing in. That isn't the time or place to be 'perfect' it's doing what needs to be done within any capacity to try to ensure as safe an outcome as possible.

conniegirl, I don't think you need to try and justify yourself under the circumstances you were under.

 

[Flame_]

I know that if I smacked my chestnut mare while she was backing up, even towards traffic or a ditch, that smacking her would make her do one of two things. 1, back up faster or 2, rear. Waving the whip will drive her forwards, or if she's thinking about whipping round, prevent that if the whip is on the side that she spins towards.

That's one horse though, lots do respond the desired way to a whack. I believe in knowing your horse and doing what works, short term in the midst of a precarious situation and from a long term training POV. My young horse naps and generally speaking just gets narkier if the whip's involved but any behaviour that's really out of order and he's felt the sharp end. In an emergency I have to leap off and drag him, (tbf he's very green and only just starting to go out alone) but I think straightforward discipline is necessary, best and clearest to some horses, though that probably doesn't include many older chestnut mares! I also like to aim reversing horses at things to help like tricky footing, and used a perfectly positioned holly bush to my advantage a couple of weeks ago, lol. **waits for the cries of horse abuse**

 

[Illusion100]

That's one horse though, lots do respond the desired way to a whack. I believe in knowing your horse and doing what works, short term midst of a precarious situation and from a long term training POV. My young horse naps and generally speaking just gets narkier if the whip's involved but any behaviour that's really out of order and he's felt the sharp end. In an emergency I have to leap off and drag him, (tbf he's very green and only just starting to go out alone) but I think straightforward discipline is necessary, best and clearest to some horses, though that probably doesn't include many older chestnut mares! I also like to aim reversing horses at things to help like tricky footing, and used a perfectly positioned holly bush to my advantage a couple of weeks ago, lol. **waits for the cries of horse abuse**

Rahh! Horse abuse! *gets flaming torch and pitchfork*

 

[conniegirl]

Everytime I've been in a dire enough situation to give a horse a proper crack it's done exactly what it was supposed to, send it forwards. Would I do it again under similar circumstances, absolutely. At times like that I'm not going to see if waving a whip will work because there aren't enough spare seconds if it doesn't.

Of course there are horses that react badly to a smack, there are also horses that throw their teddies out over a correctional tap. The point is what to do when time and options are beyond sparse and danger/injury is closing in. That isn't the time or place to be 'perfect' it's doing what needs to be done within any capacity to try to ensure as safe an outcome as possible.

conniegirl, I don't think you need to try and justify yourself under the circumstances you were under.

Thankyou! I knew tge horse and knew a smack would likely send him forwards, probably whilst bucking his head off but at least we would have been out of the situation.
As it was he practicaly lept to the other side of the road, onto the verge and then stood with his heart hammering in his chest (and mine going a mile a minute too) after a few minutes calming down we continued the hack out without further problems.
The next day he did exactly the sme hack without incident or hesitation (though i had my mum go infront in her car and slow traffic down incase he did it again)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Oh absolutely - just one horse. However CG was asking for alternatives to a sharp smack and I was offering my alternative which works with my horse and not saying that she was wrong with how she dealt with hers during her dodgy moment.

Really, when it boils down to it, what I really take against is the low level mistreatment that some people (and hopefully they are few and far between) in the horse world find acceptable (these are not people who would only smack in a dire emergency sadly). It seems that i have been unlucky and have come across quite a few of them over the my time in the horse world. I have also known and know wonderful horse men and women.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I do know for sure if either of my two horses were uncharacteristically rearing in the middle of the road, whipping them would not improve the situation. One would buck and the other would not give a stuff, neither would shoot forwards to a place of safety.

Perhaps the fact that I have ridden one of them through and cured this exact behaviour (and I did not train it out of her on a road or near dangerous drops!) should be enough to convince you that I do know how she would react and what I would do and it would be to stop the rear by turning her head before it occurred and push her on with voice and legs and an open hand. I know I could do this because I have trained for it, however if I thought there was the slightest chance she would do it on a road she wouldn't be on a road.

 

[conniegirl]

I do know for sure if either of my two horses were uncharacteristically rearing in the middle of the road, whipping them would not improve the situation. One would buck and the other would not give a stuff, neither would shoot forwards to a place of safety.

Perhaps the fact that I have ridden one of them through and cured this exact behaviour (and I did not train it out of her on a road or near dangerous drops!) should be enough to convince you that I do know how she would react and what I would do and it would be to stop the rear by turning her head before it occurred and push her on with voice and legs and an open hand. I know I could do this because I have trained for it, however if I thought there was the slightest chance she would do it on a road she wouldn't be on a road.

And as I said several times, the horse had never shown any inclination to rear or nap before, this was not a problem horse or a young horse. This was an advance medium school master who was 18 years old and normally an angel, get on him after 6 months off and hack him safely down a duel carriageway type

The only alternative you have offered is to train for it first, but you've never said how you would train for such an event on a horse who had never even thought about rearing before. Infact I'd love to see you react fast enough to prevent a rear when you are relaxed, hacking out on a very trusted horse who you are not expecting a spook from let alone behaviour like that.
As I said in a previous post he would not turn, he would not go back the way we came, he was not responding to leg (used rather forcefully) or voice aids.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Yep I've marked horses, some by accident, some out of panic and one by frustration.

All were mine, not abused and didn't suffer for it. You can debate it until the cows come home, I never felt good for it and only the truly nasty ever do regardless of the reasons.

 

[Leo Walker]

Of course there are horses that react badly to a smack

This might have coloured my view a little bit. Mine is not a responsive horse. I have been known on occasion to whallop him on his arse, only with the flat of my hand, but still a proper whallop, and I do it to show people he literally couldnt care less. I can run up behind him and wack him and he doesnt even biink. Dont get me wrong, hes off the leg and light in the hand, but stuff just doesnt bother him. I've never met another horse who coiuldnt give a fig the way mine does. He does still spook on occasion so hes not brain dead, hes just not bothered about stuff

 

[muckypony]

Yep I've marked horses, some by accident, some out of panic and one by frustration.

All were mine, not abused and didn't suffer for it. You can debate it until the cows come home, I never felt good for it and only the truly nasty ever do regardless of the reasons.

Agree totally.

People will always have different opinions on this subject. How boring would the world be if everyone always agreed...

 

[windand rain]

Is it ever ok to mark a horse with a whip
Intentionally no
in an emergency if it will be effective yes
This is why we have so many undisciplined children and animals now it is never ok to beat anything, to take out your temper or frustration violently is simply wrong but in a dire emergency and with the correct reaction from the victim a sharp smack or word can make the difference between life and death and yes I have smacked both my horses and my children to avoid serious injury. Even done so in panic/fright as the only recourse which I believe is only human. I cannot honestly say I have ever marked a horse with a whip I have seen many a horse with sore sides from constant kicking I have also heard nearly every intructor I have heard teach telling particularly kids to kick it on to make it go. I have kids to ride my old pony she stops dead if you kick her, you have to give a gentle squeeze but she goes better if you are carrying a whip, because she is lazy and has had a tap behind the leg to make her go forward. If you dont carry the whip she is fully aware you cannot get her to move or she will reluctantly amble about pick up the whip and she is super, forward and easy to ride. Most of the kids have come from riding schools and their first port of call is to kick kick kick as they have been taught. Even pony club have a habit of shouting kick it on drives me nuts.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Really, when it boils down to it, what I really take against is the low level mistreatment that some people (and hopefully they are few and far between) in the horse world find acceptable (these are not people who would only smack in a dire emergency sadly). It seems that i have been unlucky and have come across quite a few of them over the my time in the horse world. I have also known and know wonderful horse men and women.

Can someone please tell me if this post comes across to them as if I'm accusing anyone on this thread, or anyone who would smack their horse in an emergency, as condoning horse abuse?

I seem to be being very good at putting my foot in my mouth at the moment.

 

[Mike007]

I seem to be being very good at putting my foot in my mouth at the moment.

Welcome to my world!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Welcome to my world!

 

[Chloeap]

I don't accept that in a dire emergency hitting a horse exceptionally hard is going to necessarily bring about a safe out come.

Should we carry a bit of fence post around to really get the message across?

I have a horse which I know straight from the horse's (dealer's) mouth was "disciplined" with alcothane pipe. You could have hit her as hard as you like and she didn't care. She also was completely unruly and terrible to handle so all the hitting hadn't changed her behaviour in the slightest.

I spent three weeks teaching her to behave properly and despite the fact she also napped, reared and was VERY dangerous to handle I did not resort to hitting her.

Now she has been here over a year and is a very pleasant horse to deal with in all ways and no longer naps or does any of the poor behaviours she demonstrated when I bought her. Recently I had an accident so she has been turned out to grass for 3 months almost. I caught her and walked her into the trailer yesterday, took her to the vets and she behaved impeccably.

My lessons stuck with her. The stick lessons did not.

Can I ask how you sorted out your horses behaviour? My boy sounds quite similar - can be quite nappy, was bad on the ground but good now (except for loading but that's improving). Any advice?
I know using the whip on him doesn't work when he's napping. I have tried that once (only lightly) and it was the only time he has fully reared up with me on. I can use a whip when schooling to get him more forward without a problem but if he's not behaving it just makes it worse

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I've had to smack a horse once when we were in danger.

We got caught in the crossfire between police and a robbery suspect in South Africa. Summer froze and when I waved my whip, gave her her head and put my leg on, she just went up. We needed to get out so I smacked her once, hard just passed her flank. She flew forward and we just didn't stop until we got back to the yard.

It didn't leave a mark but I felt terrible. Is been so careful to build up trust with her because she was a silly, flighty sort of horse. With all the noise I'm not sure if she knew it was me but I just held onto her and sobbed afterwards. It was a horrible afternoon.

 

[Yardbird]

They say cobs are like old carpets. if you beat them all you get is a lot of dust.

This might have coloured my view a little bit. Mine is not a responsive horse. I have been known on occasion to whallop him on his arse, only with the flat of my hand, but still a proper whallop, and I do it to show people he literally couldnt care less. I can run up behind him and wack him and he doesnt even biink. Dont get me wrong, hes off the leg and light in the hand, but stuff just doesnt bother him. I've never met another horse who coiuldnt give a fig the way mine does. He does still spook on occasion so hes not brain dead, hes just not bothered about stuff

 

[Equine_Dream]

I don't know what you tried - I wasn't there.

However I have never said that a smack shouldn't be considered, or indeed done if it's a life or death situation. With my horse though, the smack would almost certainly not help.

I agree waving a whip could be a good way of dealing with it but in the same way smacking your mare would only make the problem worse the same could be said for this.
My boyfriends horse for example. He likes to nap occasionally, usually some half hearted rears and leaps and will try to spin and walk backwards. Usually letting him have his little tantrum and then a well timed growl gets him walking forward or a flick with a whip on his backside. He's a typical spooky tb though so I would imagine waving the whip in his face would only whinned him up more.
So yes whip waving could be an alternative just it depends on the horse just as the same could be said for smacking it with a whip.

 

[Sandstone1]

No of course it's not ok. We don't all do it and it's wrong. However the person in original thread knew she had done wrong and was upset. Don't think she would have posted otherwise.
For the purpose of the discussion though, is it right to hit horses to make them run faster as in racing? Imagine the uproar if greyhounds were hit to make them run faster.
Is it right to hit a horse to punish it for refusing a fence?

No one want to answer the above? Just interested as the horse seems to be one of the only animals that it seems to be ok to hit in the name of sport.

 

[Equine_Dream]

And as I said several times, the horse had never shown any inclination to rear or nap before, this was not a problem horse or a young horse. This was an advance medium school master who was 18 years old and normally an angel, get on him after 6 months off and hack him safely down a duel carriageway type

The only alternative you have offered is to train for it first, but you've never said how you would train for such an event on a horse who had never even thought about rearing before. Infact I'd love to see you react fast enough to prevent a rear when you are relaxed, hacking out on a very trusted horse who you are not expecting a spook from let alone behaviour like that.
As I said in a previous post he would not turn, he would not go back the way we came, he was not responding to leg (used rather forcefully) or voice aids.

CG I'd give up no offence to FfionWinnie but you just seem to be avoiding answering the question. I realise you have obviously put a lot of work in to your horses training which I totally commend you for and I'm not questioning for a second. I am simply asking what you would do had you been in CG's situation on a normally calm well schooled horse that was suddenly going ballistic in a very dangerous situation. If you would not have hit the horse what would you have done? Saying you wouldn't be in that situation isn't really an answer because I am asking if you were in that situation hypothetical what would you do?
If you can not answer then that's fine. But maybe it's worth being more accepting that sometimes as horrible as it may be hitting your horse in order to stop him putting himself in further danger is the only option in a complete emergency. The thought of doing it to any of mine makes my blood run cold but id rather us come out of it alive and well and spend a few extra hours at the yard making up for it, rather than the alternative.

 

[Leo Walker]

They say cobs are like old carpets. if you beat them all you get is a lot of dust.

That is totally true :lol:

 

[Equine_Dream]

Oh absolutely - just one horse. However CG was asking for alternatives to a sharp smack and I was offering my alternative which works with my horse and not saying that she was wrong with how she dealt with hers during her dodgy moment.

Really, when it boils down to it, what I really take against is the low level mistreatment that some people (and hopefully they are few and far between) in the horse world find acceptable (these are not people who would only smack in a dire emergency sadly). It seems that i have been unlucky and have come across quite a few of them over the my time in the horse world. I have also known and know wonderful horse men and women.

I do agree with you there. I really can not understand the mentality of constantly beating your horse into submission. I want my horses to work with me because they enjoy it not because their scared of the beating they'll get if they don't. Plus as I've said I can't abide people who just constantly use a whip rather than other aids. It's just plain lazy.

 

[Illusion100]

I do find that those who have a tendency to use force consistently tend to be 'untalented' in general or punching above their weight and get frustrated when they can't produce the resuts they think they should be able to. That somehow means the horse is at fault sadly.

Another category those that are taught to 'show the horse who's boss', which is taken out of context and construed as dominance rather than assertiveness.

The above kind of people tend to let emotion rule their actions and they take things personally when the horse doesn't do what they want them too. Pride gets hurt and of course the horse is to blame.

Sometimes horses are too forgiving for their own good if you ask me!

 

[popsdosh]

I have tried to keep out anyhow for what its worth I would rather see a single meaningful administration of the whip when its needed and the times it is needed is the art of being a good rider. For those who say you cant use it to deter a dangerous situation please! Of course you can as a good rider can anticipate the moment its needed.
What really pees me off is the number of riders who nowadays go around just tapping all the time like a chinese water torture and would never dream off actually hitting the horse from years of experience one well timed use will save years of tapping away but I would be labelled to be cruel lol . For those who say just wave your whip how do you think the horse has learnt to react to this if not being laid into by someone.
Before the world falls on me I am not advocating beating at all just if you do need to use it use sufficient force so the horse respects it. How many of those condeming the use of the whip in this way actually carry one in everyday riding ,because if you are not going to use it properly why bother.

 

[ester]

I do agree with you there. I really can not understand the mentality of constantly beating your horse into submission. I want my horses to work with me because they enjoy it not because their scared of the beating they'll get if they don't. Plus as I've said I can't abide people who just constantly use a whip rather than other aids. It's just plain lazy.

That is a totally different scenario to a single reprimand in a rather urgent situation. I also don't know anyone who constantly uses the whip at the expense at all the other aids, and I am not surrounded my amazing riders.

We also seem to have forgotten that humans are not perfect, we are also not always able to act in calm rational manner and during an 'oh ****' moment you might not be able to run through the number of possibilities and will likely to react in a manner that you think the horse you are currently sat on might react to and/or other possibilities have already failed. In an emergency if you hit them and it doesn't work at least you tried it than end up in a more horrid mess, and you never know, it might work.

 

[Equine_Dream]

That is a totally different scenario to a single reprimand in a rather urgent situation. I also don't know anyone who constantly uses the whip at the expense at all the other aids, and I am not surrounded my amazing riders.

We also seem to have forgotten that humans are not perfect, we are also not always able to act in calm rational manner and during an 'oh ****' moment you might not be able to run through the number of possibilities and will likely to react in a manner that you think the horse you are currently sat on might react to and/or other possibilities have already failed. In an emergency if you hit them and it doesn't work at least you tried it than end up in a more horrid mess, and you never know, it might work.

Of course it is an entirely different kettle of fish there. That was my point as I was agreeing with the OP that using a whip harshly and/or constantly are different to a one off wack in an emergency.
And in regards to the people who constantly use whips, if you haven't seen it personally then you're lucky. Unfortunately there seem to be many at my yard who would rather constantly flick away with a whip instead of using voice/legs/seat. Most are young who just want to gallop about everywhere, however there are one or two adults who I've seen doing it. They are also not exactly novice rider's and are well aware the other aids exist but are simply too lazy to use them.
My own little gelding is the product of one of these "riders" and even know hates the sight of a whip I do ride him with a whip but it's usually hidden in my boot. Otherwise he spends the whole ride looking around in panic every time I ask him to move up a gear as he's expecting a wallop. Lucky legs and voice are more than enough to get him moving without the need of a whip.

 

[windand rain]

I know of noone who would beat their horse for any reason but I have seen a lot of beatings going on at competitions. loading, refusing jumps, kids frustrated with their ponies and adults who think it looks clever to dominate their horse. same goes with socking it in the teeth. Was recently adivse by a top trainer to put a strong bit in and pull out the ponies back teeth as it is a neck strong pony it has a good mouth and is very sensitive and no the rider didnt do it and I would never have allowed it anyway. But that child was horrified by that adult advice. She never carries a stick either So sadly its not the amateurs that are always to blame. Another trainer turned and average horse inside out with a whip and bit in an attempt to make it a dressage horse it simply couldnt comply with his wishes it was the wrong shape. Mind you I was banned from watching his lessons I think he saw my face.