Do you think that it's OK to whack a horse so hard that it...

selinas spirit said:
No of course it's not ok. We don't all do it and it's wrong. However the person in original thread knew she had done wrong and was upset. Don't think she would have posted otherwise.
For the purpose of the discussion though, is it right to hit horses to make them run faster as in racing? Imagine the uproar if greyhounds were hit to make them run faster.
Is it right to hit a horse to punish it for refusing a fence?
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Not right at all, to both of the above. Unless being pursued by bears or similar, obviously - then it would be understandable. Unless said bears were added by choice to make the sport interesting, etc. Then it's back to being not right at all.

Off-topic, but would cavalry riders (armed with whatever weapons) actually want to climb onto a horse that had learned to fear the result of a stick being lifted? Wouldn't that make using a sword or spear etc very tricky? And when you think about it, rifles are stick shaped too, or at least enough of a similarity for horses.

Anyhow, I'm another in favour of learning to read micro signals correctly and paying proper attention; both to the horse, and to our surroundings. Pre-empting the unwanted behaviour (ideally without resorting to violence) is far better than having to resolve it. If I can't read a horse well enough to do that, then I won't ride it outside of the "safely enclosed area with appropriate artificial surface". Not getting into the arena/school debate! ;) Am I strict with mine? Absolutely. But I have never marked them, or indeed any others. I would be gutted if I did - in fact, on the occasions where I find myself issuing a smack or a sharp kick, I'll do the same to myself afterwards...apologising to the horse all the while. Because if it results in violence of any level, then I've failed in my duty of care.

NB - I think the mare described in the original thread probably has underlying issues that her owner will need to identify and deal with. Assuming that it wasn't yet another troll/goady journo/the OP of this thread messing with all our heads...dear God, this forum has made me cynical! :D
 
popsdosh said:
For those who say just wave your whip how do you think the horse has learnt to react to this if not being laid into by someone.
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That's absolutely not the case. I can guarantee that two of mine have never been beaten (unless it somehow happened in utero ;)) but they both move away from a waved whip regardless of whether it's a lunge whip being wiggled behind them or a shorter whip being moved while they are ridden. It's the movement or the noise (if the rider gets the whip to make a noise) that they move away from. They are definitely not frightened or in fear of being hit. It's more akin to the way that jockeys use the whip to straighten a mount that is drifting over. I know that not every horse responds well to it, but if you have one that does, it's a very useful tool to have in the box that doesn't cause further stress to the horse in stressful situations.

Windand Rain makes a good point. I have seen some awful things at shows too.

RE racehorses I found EKW's post quite an interesting comparison (that Jockeys are hauled over the coals if they mark a horse) to what happened with Magnum Psyche at Scottsdale a few years ago. I have to say that the world of arabian in-hand showing is one of the areas where my greatest concerns over the misuse of the whip lies, especially when a horse with a whip mark (or a mark that is almost certainly a whip mark) isn't disqualified, but is actually made champion. You then have training stables who advertise that they only use humane training methods actually LOSING clients (eg Bluebell Arabians) which shows just how ingrained the rough methods are with some people in that part of the horse world.
 
It's not an ideal thing to do to a horse but it was done for a reason and that was to keep the horse and rider safe. The rider won't do it again and feels bad about it. Most riders would be the same in that situation I would do the same. Just today i had to boot my horse because he started backing up to an electric fence. Should I have let him back up and electrocute himself? No. Do I feel a bit bad I had to make him go forward with a bit a force when less made no difference? Yes but better he listens than gets a big fright.

I do wonder though how those who say they wouldnt get into that situation actually ride. I mean every horse is unpredictable you are a fool if you think you know what the horse will do every time in every situation. You can't possibly know even the best trained horses will have an off day. Should we just never ride outside or on roads incase we get into a bad situation? Should we just never ride at all incase something bad happens?

Saying i would never be in that situation is just hope really. You hope you will never be in that situation. But no trainer is good enough to know 100% their horse will never do anything bad. Even the bombproof ones will have an off day you just can never be sure. You can only know how to stop the situation once it's begun and if that requires a brief moment of force then it's the lesser of two evils. I would rather do that than watch my horse break his leg or something.
 
Sorry, but I posted on there my opinion. I think its ridiculous how many people seem to be comforting the OP of that thread simply because she feels bad about it. Too right she should! She left a big welt on her horse but thats apparently acceptable just because it was napping? Why doesn't anyone consider that the horse is in pain or something was uncomfortable for it it (ie. tack pinching etc.)? If my horse started to "misbehave" then I'd want to work out why, I wouldn't just start beating it up. Too many riders turn to whips IMO, drives me nuts. I stopped carrying a whip about 4 years ago as I dont agree with using it for punishment, this includes for competing. Even today I watched a girl smacking her horse hard twice simply because it over-jumped a fence, logically what exactly is that telling the horse? I jump, I get smacked? Right... great way to bring up a confident, happy horse who enjoys his jumping :(

I dont get why hitting horses is seen as acceptable yet if you saw someone smacking their dog or cat then you'd have something to say about it?
 
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I think the general point is that BEATING a horse as a way of training it is categorically wrong and something that the majority of people here would never consider, sadly it is something that is done by amateurs and pros alike. A very high profile dressage rider some time ago came to our yard and didn't like the manners on a particularly stubborn chestnut mare so he got on her and thrashed her to gallop her flat out to a brick wall and then socked her in the mouth to stop her, does anyone think that this mare learned anything from this? Of course not. Was there lots of other options available in the safety of a schooling environment to work with the horse to get her cooperation? Absolutely! Would I reprimand someone who never normally beats there horse for feeling they had no choice in a time limited dangerous situation for resorting to smacking it? No I wouldn't, and the fact that they don't normally beat their horse means the horse is likely to be so shocked by the action that it stops focusing on whatever was the issue and paid attention, if the rider resorted to beating on a regular basis then of course it would be cruel and also become pretty ineffective. When I was a child I thought the orange bars in the calor gas fire were pretty and tried to put my hand through to touch them, my mum shouted to me and I ignored her so out of panic she smacked my hand. Do I think my mum was cruel and a child beater? Of course not. Did my mum smack me often? No I think I can only think of 2 times so when she did it worked!!
 
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With regard to the horse moving from the waved whip doing so because it has learnt to fear the whip, what utter tosh. The horse moves from the movement it sees in it's eyeline, or in the case of the long end of the reins hitting a waterproof jacket, moving from the noise. I once watched an excellent old horse man load a fairly confirmed none loader by following on behind her, very gently swishing a length of blue pipe over his head from side to side. The mare walked calmly onto the wagon. If she had thought that she was going to be hit, there is no way that she would have calmly loaded, she would have been more likely to reverse while rearing!
 
Horses are not "naughty" deliberately, whatever way you think.
They are prey animals and get scared etc...they do what works for them.
I fail to see how walloping a frightened or in pain animal is going to help. Is it OK to punch a human in the face because they are in a frightening situation?
I'm terrified of lifts after being trapped in one that broke down...I panicked and kicked the door...would a smack in the mouth have helped me?!
 
SatansLittleHelper said:
Horses are not "naughty" deliberately, whatever way you think.
They are prey animals and get scared etc...they do what works for them.
I fail to see how walloping a frightened or in pain animal is going to help. Is it OK to punch a human in the face because they are in a frightening situation?
I'm terrified of lifts after being trapped in one that broke down...I panicked and kicked the door...would a smack in the mouth have helped me?!
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No, but if you were standing frozen with fear in front of a moving train, a bloody great shove in the back that might cause you some damage would be better than letting a train hit you, wouldn't it?
 
Oh yes, no one has ever been given a slap to snap out of it (though maybe only in the movies ;) ) :D.

Though yes, distraction from things causing distress using pain does work because it changes the 'threat'.
 
You use whips to train .
There's little difference between a whip and your leg in a training situation .
It's as unpleasant for the horse to be ridden with a nagging leg .
I always carry a whip.
For hacking I train my horses to walk out smartly in all situation without me ever using my leg .
It's a case of the horse walks out with energy and forwardness until I tell you otherwise I just sit and let you carry me forwards many in fact most of the horses you buy don't have this in place so I have to train it into them and to do that you simply sit in neutral and tap the horse with the dressage whip if it backs off .
Many horses seem to think they only keep going when the rider is doing as much work as them and you see people hacking horses out nagging with the leg every step if you have to use that much leg to get the horse to walk in a death march along a road there will no chance of teaching it the dressage movements .
This was drummed into me when I was training the horse must go 'on it's own ' in the lower level training or you have no hope as you go on with the training .
The whip is a central part of my system to ask forwardness ,to guide as in for instance place on the shoulder on a horse falling out and to indicate the area you what the horse to concentrate on .
And yes I will give a sharp whack to a horse who disobeys the rules but in truth my horses rarely do because they understand where they are at and what's expected .
Napping and many healthy youngsters do go through a mildly nappy phase it usually just shows your trainings not quite in place and it's easily dealt with .
But I really see the whip as an extension of my legs body hands if helps you produce easy to ride forward horses .
 
Goldenstar said:
And yes I will give a sharp whack to a horse who disobeys the rules but in truth my horses rarely do because they understand where they are at and what's expected .
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To what extent is your having to take such sharp action because the horse is wilfully disobeying what he knows of how you want him to behave, rather than him not fully understanding what you want? How do you tell the difference?

Obviously, the fact you have to whack only rarely is commendable because it shows the horse has acquired (through your good training) a high level of understanding.
 
In a dangerous situation you do anything to get out of it. At that point you have no time to "educate" or explain/desensitise the horse to the thing they are reacting to. You need to get out of that situation as fast as possible and a strong whack with the whip is a way of trying to get horse attention and make them move.

There's plenty of time after the situation to train without using the whip. But sometimes it's necessary. If a welt is created after using the whip but you managed to escape the dangerous situation then so be it.

Training is different to escaping.


I rarely use the whip on Bill, might use the dressage whip and give a double tap which works really well on him to get him to lift hocks a bit more. Xc I might use the whip "hunting style" ie. I'll hold it out behind the saddle if I feel there's a fence he might back off (or I'm nervous about that particular jump) - he never does, but it's a confidence booster for me as its ready for backup if I need it!
 
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Yes - the issue, as relayed by OP, is whether using a whip to avert disaster or get out of a sticky situation where a split second response is need. I don't think anyone is arguing that a whack is never justified in such a scenario, are they? (Whether such situations should be allowed to occur in the first place is a totally separate matter. Truth is, sh * t happens.)

However, as often happens the discussion tends to veer off into sidelines, one of the more interesting ones here being whether 'severe' whip use is ever justifiable in training situations where there is no imminent danger. Maybe a separate thread should be started for that.
 
But "severe" needs to be defined I think - everybody has different views of what is a hard hit with the whip. Plus while I don't think skin thickness changes, their coat does. A horse with full winter coat will have more protection from the whip than a fully clipped out horse, or even a summer coat. Winter coats will be less likely to have a welt.

For example, I once broke a skinny (useless) whip (the children ones) when I was 13, on a pony that regarded her life as pointless unless she was eating. Refusal to move was a common occurrence while hacking. Hitting hard enough then was probably nothing to what I would define a hard hit now. The whip I bought to replace that one is still in use now & is a proper thick jumping/hunt whip :)

A hard hit to me is lifting hand off reins and hitting behind the saddle - but only with a short, thick whip. No welts created but a method to make horse go forward and to teach horse that backwards isn't a option. It depends on the horse though - current horse is good to leg & whip only ever as backup. if I hit Billy a hard hit with hand off rein he'd be off like a shot and we probably wouldn't stop for a few fields after jumping hedges with no input from me :p

A severe hit to me would be several of those hard hits with the short thick whip or using a dressage (thin) whip with hand off rein behind saddle once. Not necessary in any situation unless dangerous. I can't see any place for a severe use of the whip in training but I can see a place in training for a hard hit with the whip.
 
fburton said:
To what extent is your having to take such sharp action because the horse is wilfully disobeying what he knows of how you want him to behave, rather than him not fully understanding what you want? How do you tell the difference?

Obviously, the fact you have to whack only rarely is commendable because it shows the horse has acquired (through your good training) a high level of understanding.
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Well horses are not machines and mine are encouraged to be spirited so at times they decide it's a good idea to do the wrong thing .
I can give you a an example from last week . I have a new groom and Fatty a wily old coyote decided to test her out so he stopped dead having seen a terrifying thrush
A meaningful leg aid resulted in Fatty saying he fancied whipping round and she gave one good crack of whip he went past he knows she's not to messed with .
He's a hunter and trained to take his own decisions so it's not surprising he tests his riders and checks the boundaries.
Horses are not machines I do not expect mine to be submissive robots so I expect that they push self expression a little to far at times .
 
No but some horses are very thin skinned and you don't have to hit them very hard, or to spur them into oblivion in order to leave a mark. On the one and only time (in nearly 30 years of horse ownership) I left a mark I spent the next few days wondering if I could have done things differently and was ashamed of my action which were borne out of fright and frustration.
 
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