Do your worst - CC on difficult mare jumping

You ride so well I feel perhaps I should be giving advice, when I was young standing martingales were the norm for hacking out youngsters and difficult horses I think an elastic one would be a good idea in case she freaks when feelsit it really gives some naughty horses confidence I think because they come against it then work out the safe place is below it.
If she where mine I would definatly be wanting to have a look in her mouth especially at the very back and would want her sedated so to get a really good look . I would also get her poll checked out if you have not already done that.
She's lovely and six months consistent graft could produce a completly different horse .i am really looking forward to seeing her story progress.
 
As everyone else - you ride far far better and at a much higher level than me, but for what it's worth:

- I wouldn't pat her when she's run out (first vid, after you turn her back to the fence), don't care if a stop/run out was rider error (which I don't believe in this instance) - not getting over the fence is wrong for any jumping horse and they must know it. That fence was small enough for her to walk over. Don't let her get away with it, turn back to where she ran out, don't give up and circle. On a different horse I'd say give her a smack (yes - even if the stop was rider error!) but it's quite clear why that might be difficult here...
- also for this reason wouldn't turn away from the second pole on the floor (second video, second time after the double). With a trustworthy horse, no problem to take this line as an option, but not with this one yet.
- I'd avoid inside bend when jumping at this stage as you seem to be losing the outside shoulder on this rein which isn't helping the running out. Square corners, think outside bend.
- I would drop fence down as soon as she runs out, get over/through the fence in walk, trot, build up gradually instead of risking more run outs at the same height. better to avoid a "situation" at this stage, she might be 7 but when she loses the plot she looks and behaves like a stroppy and confused 4-year old.

It is clearly a tricky horse and she might have some physical discomfort (mouth, further back in the body - she does "clench" up behind sometimes over a fence, not sure why) but ultimately she needs to know she has to get over that fence/pole, running out or rearing is not an option. Keep it tiny until she is confident if necessary to get her trust and to eliminate "episodes". Agree with trying a standing martingale. She is a stunning, talented mare and you are obviously a very very good rider, I hope it works out. And like I said, I know v little compared to you so feel v free to ignore!!
 
My youngster had this reaction when pressed to do anything he was unhappy with, and he had never been hit. On the surface your mare looks like she is thumbing her nose at you but she is consistently tight in her back and giving poles a lot of air which makes me think she is anxious underneath it all and that is the fundemental problem. I have discovere with mine that what people see from the ground and what you feel when on board really are 2 very different things.

If it helps, to stop mine rearing, I used draw reins and sorted the adverse reaction on the ground before approaching a fence. When reintroducing jumping after asserting more control/leadership, I only approached fences small enough to climb over until there was no resistance or anxiety. God knows if it has helped with mine - first proper jumping this weekend!!
 
Thanks so much for all your input! As many of you say she does seem like she's worth it most of the time, which is why I haven't sent her packing yet. Just to clarify she has already jumped the blue oxer, then we added the filler at the start of the first video on here.

I really like the idea of an elasticated standing martingale, I think a normal leather one might not be the help we need if she did one of her head flips and the pressure came on very hard and suddenly, do you reckon I can make an elasticated one or can I pick one up somewhere? Never seen a standing used here, not a common item.

She was in a fulmer before and may go back to it, I think the reduced movement of the bit kept her happier too. The owners have agreed for her to be looked at by my osteopath today, and she'll have a few days off whilst I'm in Jardy, then my UK dentist will be over. It will also be interesting to see what the farrier thinks, she is very upright in front (and unshod behind though surprisingly unsore for the amount of hacking she is doing).

Over the next few weeks I will really concentrate on control of the pace and teaching her to yield to the leg, she doesn't really know what that is and if I can control hind and front end separately it should be a step forward. Interesting many find her rushed in the videos, if I were teaching me I think I would want it slowed down too, however when on board she doesn't feel in front of the leg (the two-thirds of the horse in front of you feeling) until I have her like that. William will have an easy week after Jardy so for that update video I will try to do one focusing on her.
 
Can't watch videos here but just wanted to say that your mare sounds so similar to how mine was behaving- a Myler bit with no joint & a hollow for the Tongue just solved the problem immediately. It also had fixed D rings. She was hyper sensitive to any bit pinching& when I look back I couldve saved myself so much grief if I'd put the Myler on straight away.
Also a loose Market harborough really helped so much as well, more than a standing martingale did. I think it's a fab bit of kit, I thought it would make them set down on the bit, but it doesn't at all, it simply corrects when they tip their nose & head up to far.
Also that really helped mine to stop rearing.
Another thing she's hypersensitive about is saddle fit- she literally won't do a thing if the saddle is remotely not fitting somewhere, also had to be carefull it didn't sit too close or beyond her last rib.
 
Phew, well ridden.

Just my thoughts. She looks unhappy in her mouth - but could this be general physical unhappiness - back, hocks perhaps? - manifesting itself in her fussing in front.

Providing that physically she is 100% and was just being a bit of an old bag, I wonder what would have happened in the first video if the fence that she kept refusing was actually put on the floor for her to walk over. Ie - just because you refuse doesn't mean to say you're not going over it - even if you're walking over it......

Such a shame she won't hack safely on her own - she may well benefit from a few weeks of just doing that.
 
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Rouletterose said:
She seems to be just very tense and unsure about it all and needs lots of confidence building. On the jumping video she gets worried and then says 'I can't do it', I feel that less jumping would be far better with lots of praise when she's jumped well. She's definately not happy in her mouth or it could be through the poll area as well, as in the flatwork video in the 'double' she is very overbent and just ducking behind the contact, not working through at all.
I would slow everything right down, building balance and confidence for her.

Over the fences she 'throws' herself over, this often indicates pain somewhere, hence after a few jumps she starts to refuse. You need to look at that.
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I would agree with this. I would investigate mouth issues straight away, to me she looks like she is really overreacting to the rein contact. I'd try her in a standing martingale to protect your face and then be a lot softer in the contact to try and get her to be more confident with the contact.

She looks to be a cracking mare with a lot of jump, but the jump is very much a panic throw myself over type approach and not one of confidence, then something happens to make her think 'I can't do this anymore'.

ETA - I sent my bog standard standing martingale off to a saddler to have some strong elastic inserted into it. If it's not something easily available to you would it be worth getting someone over here to get one made and send out to you?
 
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Hi - I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I am being repetitive. Firstly, you are obviously a very experienced and competent rider so feel free to take or leave my comments, but these were my initial instincts:
- As I was watching the video the first time and i watched you approach the filler, before i even knew the horse was going to stop, my instinct was to go "leg on, leg on". I felt that you sat a little passively into the fence and she needed a bit more riding up to the fence, if you get what i mean? ( I have a mare that i have to tell what to do at every fence and make it very black and white). I felt that she wasn't particularly scared of the filler and actually she just took advantage of the situation and just needed a bit more determination from you.
- The reaction when she stops is obviously more difficult. It does appear that she is scared of getting a whack or a smack in the mouth (has she had a difficult background?). However, i think that you are being a bit nice to her. I wouldn't pat her in front of the fence. Even if she is scared (which i am not that convinced of), she shouldn't be rewarded for doing the wrong thing. Whilst I am not suggesting you beat her up, i think you need to be more assertive with your body language. I also think that you need to reapproach the fence more quickly. She stops, rears and then gets a few minutes off. I would get her moving forward as quickly as you can and reapproach with determination.
 
Supanova said:
Hi - I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I am being repetitive. Firstly, you are obviously a very experienced and competent rider so feel free to take or leave my comments, but these were my initial instincts:
- As I was watching the video the first time and i watched you approach the filler, before i even knew the horse was going to stop, my instinct was to go "leg on, leg on". I felt that you sat a little passively into the fence and she needed a bit more riding up to the fence, if you get what i mean? ( I have a mare that i have to tell what to do at every fence and make it very black and white). I felt that she wasn't particularly scared of the filler and actually she just took advantage of the situation and just needed a bit more determination from you.
- The reaction when she stops is obviously more difficult. It does appear that she is scared of getting a whack or a smack in the mouth (has she had a difficult background?). However, i think that you are being a bit nice to her. I wouldn't pat her in front of the fence. Even if she is scared (which i am not that convinced of), she shouldn't be rewarded for doing the wrong thing. Whilst I am not suggesting you beat her up, i think you need to be more assertive with your body language. I also think that you need to reapproach the fence more quickly. She stops, rears and then gets a few minutes off. I would get her moving forward as quickly as you can and reapproach with determination.
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This is why I find training horses so fascinating, everyone has a different opinion of whats going on and everyone would approach the solution differently. That's not to say either one of us is right or wrong, but to me I see a horse that has no confidence, is throwing herself over fences and then loses her head when it goes wrong. The reason she has no confidence needs to be investigated (physical pain somewhere/past experience etc. - which I am sure with the OP's experience will get thoroughly looked into). To me it needs slowing down, taking back a step or two and getting the mare to drop her head and look at what she's doing, and then find the confidence again.

But like I say, that doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong, it's just interesting how people see different things isn't it! :)
 
Saratoga said:
This is why I find training horses so fascinating, everyone has a different opinion of whats going on and everyone would approach the solution differently. That's not to say either one of us is right or wrong, but to me I see a horse that has no confidence, is throwing herself over fences and then loses her head when it goes wrong. The reason she has no confidence needs to be investigated (physical pain somewhere/past experience etc. - which I am sure with the OP's experience will get thoroughly looked into). To me it needs slowing down, taking back a step or two and getting the mare to drop her head and look at what she's doing, and then find the confidence again.

But like I say, that doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong, it's just interesting how people see different things isn't it! :)
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It is very interesting! I wrote my reply and then looked at the other responses and was quite surprised by the different responses! I don't disagree that the mare may lack confidence but this may be helped by the rider being a bit more assertive into the fence and saying "come on, its ok"! I agree that it may be better to slow her down in between the fences but the ride a bit more forward round the corner and up to the fence. I have a mare that lacks confidence at times and I am constantly told by my instructer that I need to be the leader and make it absolutely clear what I expect from them.

I also agree that physical issues should be ruled out too!

This is why forums are great because you get loads of different people's eyes and experience to learn from !
 
if she's had a history of rearing is it possible she went over backwards and whacked her poll at one point? I know dy'on do a bridle that has a really cut back poll area that takes all the pressure off - expensive but maybe worth trying?
I also really like the sprenger training bits - yes they leave the horse very heavy in your hand but they are stable in the mouth and we have had a lot of success with fussy mouthed horses in using them previously. Horses seem to love them and will take a contact up with them.
 
I know she needs a bit for flatwork but could you try jumping her in a hackamore (obv I don't know the rules over there but it's an option in the UK)?

She looks like she is over reacting to the contact, she hollows mid air against it, her head comes up and it affects her back end/hind leg in the air as she is compressing herself and not stretching out over the fence? Most evident at the spread fence where, although she has loads of scope, she just doesn't look happy in her jump?
 
Watching that i thought it was my horse!! Exactly the same thing! I use a running and standing martingale (with elastic) mainly to A, have something to hold on to when hes spinning/rearing, and B, to stop him from smacking me in the face!. How is she bred out of interest? Mine has all the talent scope and ability yet 1day he will be super and not put a foot wrong, and the next 3days he will be horrid, Ive had him just over 12months now he is better, but I still wont trust him enough to let anyone ride him. Has she been XC schooling? Im currently taking mine out now to start getting him abit more forward thinking, seems to be working, slightly.
 
Just to add, I gave my saddler an old leather standing martingale, and he added some elastic to it if you cant find one where you are.
 
If she were mine I would spend some time loose jumping her. You have a good enclosed indoor, set up in there and get her thinking forward to a fence. Keep them small to start so that if she stops you can get her to walk over it. The work you do on the ground will translate to the saddle and you'll also see any differences that might indicate a cause - ie if she doesnt stop, rear etc then it is a bridle/tack/rider issue. If she does, its more of a attitude thing.

Good luck.

N x
 
Fabulous riding. I am sure you will get there with your calm but persistent attitude. I agree she looks uncomfortable in the mouth. If there are no problems now but there have been in the past it could be the 'memory' of pain from the wolf teeth even though they have been dealt with. i.e. she is reacting to the memory of her mouth hurting rather than it actually hurting if that makes sense - if you've ever had a problem with your teeth you tend to find you still won't eat on that side even though you KNOW they no longer hurt! Also the reaction to getting it wrong was very 'oh *****, now I'm going to get it!'. I think you are doing all the right things and the standing martingale would be a good idea as it may take her mind off the fear of a jab in the mouth with the pressure being transferred to her nose. Great job though - I think most of us are in awe - I would have got off weeks ago and gone for a good sob and a vat of wine.
 
I dont know anything about jumping, but, she does look like my boy used to act.
He would either drop behind the contact, or if really pushed into a contact, he would start the head tossing, almost hysterical behaviour, sometimes running through the bridle. I would have to stop and just let him settle and get over it, as he would just get more and more upset. He used to really chew on the bit as well.
I knew he had a blind wolf teeth, but was told that they wouldnt cause his problems, unless he was very sensitive...
Turns out he must be :), I had the vet take the tooth out, and he was almost immediately better.
I also ride in a Neue Schule ( spelling?) team up, that he likes. It has made him "heavy" in my hands, but at least I have a contact to work with now.
I also used a standing martingale, mainly to keep my own teeth safe while I was riding him, he stopped the head throwing, ( and would start again as soon as it was taken off ), but as it turned out, it was masking a physical problem.
Yours is a lovely looking mare, and I think you ride her really nicely. Hopefully, its something relatively easy to sort out for you.
Kx
 
First off, agree with everyone on here in that you're a cracking rider and have the patience of a saint!

I'm not going to say anything about the jumping as I think most of what I would think has been covered by various people on here, the only thing I think I would reiterate is that in all the videos it does all look a bit quick. My horse has a great action as well and it's so easy to be fooled into thinking they're really working well when you feel so much elevation and such a nice action.

For a while I found it hard to differentiate when he was really working through and balanced compared with when he was just using his fancy big action to fool me, but what I found was a brilliant way of telling was doing lots of 'long and low' work with him. He had similar reactions to your mare when I got him in terms of snatching his head up - he didn't rear to that extent but was really averse to taking the contact down and forward (a side-effect from the terrible state his mouth was in when I got him and the fact he used to get jabbed in the mouth a lot). Not only did the long and low make me more aware of his anxiety about his mouth, but it also showed me when he was really off-balance and rushing as he'd just get quicker and quicker and his massive hind leg action would be propelling him onto his nose! As I wasn't willing to 'carry' him he gradually got stronger through his back and learnt to carry himself and, as a result, he was loads more balanced and the whole thing became steadier and easier for me to control.

Sorry, long-winded I know but basically I think it would be really helpful in your flatwork to see how she is with the long and low stuff as you may find her balance is not what you think it is which may be part of her confidence issue. It might also show up some tension in her mouth or back that you haven't noticed. Plus it's a great way to learn to use your seat to control the pace rather than the reins (not that that's what you're doing!).

The only other thing (I'm on a roll now!) is that my horse used to have a bad reaction whenever anything new was introduced - his instant reaction to new things, whether it was a new flatwork movement, a new jump, anything really, would be to completely 'spit the dummy'. Turns out it was a panic reaction as he used to get a big telling off if he didn't 'get' something immediately, so although I agree with some people on here saying you need to be tough with her as she's being evasive, first of all you need to get her confidence built up a bit (I think!). This is what I had to do with mine - pats when he was upset by something, however silly it seemed etc. - a lot of people said I was being too soft on him at the start but in the long run, a few years down the line it has meant that I've been able to be tough when I needed to be without him losing the plot. So he still gets pats and lots of rewards but now that we have a better bond I can also give him a smack if I need to without him going skyward and thinking it's the end of the world!

But all in all I think you're doing a fab job and she's a stunning horse!!
 
Watched both vids, I really like her ;)

I think the behaviour is partially due to remembered discomfort and learning that throwing herself around has previously got her out of a situation she's concerned about. I think what you're doing is absolutely right, and am seriously envious of how cool and collected you are!!

I think repetition is the way forward with this horse, lots and lots of easy stuff so she never gets to think "backwards" and start to jib about, and so forwards becomes her default behaviour (hopefully!) I would put something like a straight bar nathe in her mouth, so there is a nice wide soft surface on her gums and over her tongue. I would also agree with a LOOSE standing, but only one that doesn't come into action until she's at nosebreaking level, just as a safety belt more than anything.

I think the slight cramping behind is just due to tension and shows she isn't 100% in her comfort zone yet... I think this will get better the more she does and realises she isn;t being challenged, and it's fun...

Hope we continue to get updates :)
 
i only watched the first vid.....but

My first thoughts are shes exceptionally tense behind over the fence i would look into that. admitedly that might be transmitted by you but maybe not - she looked much loser over the first cross pole, maybe her nerves? looks like shes been overfaced maybe.

I would personally be more obvious with whats good and whats not. Like those runouts, not OK, i would make this a little more clear that its not acceptable - I dont mean lay into her but i'd be a bit firmer, especially while things are so small. even if its only a growl and /or a kick in the ribs.

Equally, when she does a good job and is brave, I'd be more quick and obvious to praise her (you might be doing this and i just didnt see:) )

i would not get on it without a martingale after seeing it go, hats off to you for getting on it without a neckstrap!! i wouldnt as i am wimpy :)

But then when I put a standing on my rearer/mentalist, she had a right tantrum so be aware that might happen....make sure you're in a padded area!!

also the right rein?????? i dont remember seeing any / many jumps off the right rein? (maybe i'm blind!) is it better - worse , might point to some clues .

you rode her lovely but that would be my 2p worth.
 
I have read all the replies, fascinating stuff, agree with how interesting it is having all the different input. Osteopath saw her today and said she was all wrong in the lumbar region, explains why she can fling her head upwards after landing even if I'm not touching her mouth, it's because I sit up a bit quick on her due to her real flick with the hind end over a fence.

Dentist due next week, and in the mean time she'll have a few days off. I was brave and hacked her by myself this morning but the little hack not via the Ring road! We had a few rears to begin with but finished well. Oh, and I had my neck strap back on! I forgot it when jumping yesterday and certainly missed it!
 
She is beautiful, a real quality horse and moves fantastically. But I don't like the shape she makes over a fence - she doesn't "bascule" at all and looks very tight through the back. Which is odd given the way she moves on the flat - as she's obviously very athletic.

You wouldn't be able to do a course of larger fences given the way she's jumping at the moment (and I don't mean the sharpness, which you handle really well and I'm sure will be sorted).

Have you had her back checked out? She is obviously a sensitive type, so it could be something relatively minor.
 
It's great that the osteopath has seen her I would make that a regular thing for a while but the difficult thing is knowing whether the soreness causes the behaviour or the behaviour ( rearing holding herself tense generally flinging herself around )has caused the soreness or its a mixture of the two.
With the nappy ones I had when younger ( sorting out nappy horse was my thing) I always tried to crack the hacking once I got them enjoying work it got easier
it will very interesting to see if the dentist finds something.
 
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