docking distress.

[PerdixPerdix]

is it me or am i right in thinking that having to take your litter of puppies into the vets to get them docked is a right royal pain in the bum, for the owner, the bitch and her puppies????

i remember the way it used to be done, sharp razor/scalpel and a quick snip, maybe a yelp but more often not, puppy back into mum and jobs a good 'un. my family and friends have raised hundreds of puppies this way with no problems at all. (obviously they stopped when the ban came in)

now i have started breeding on my own ive had to have them done by the vets and they have been a complete debacle. have i just got a weird vet or do they all insist on injecting aneasthetic, weighing, measuring and then cutting the tail off with SCISSORS! like mine did. all in all it has been very distressing for the puppies and with the last lot i gave up halfway and only got 3 docked because mum was going blotto with all her puppies screams.

i know there are certain foul people who dock tails very badly, but i doubt those types would even take notice of the ban so i cant see how much good its done

am i being overly sensitive?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Only experience I have ever had was a JRT pup, which was done in the nest by a very experienced terrierman, no stress to pup or dam. The method you describe as being used by the vet certainly sounds a lot more traumatic for pups and dam, but suspect vets have to use anaesthetics etc to comply with the stupid laws we now have.

 

[Jim Moriarty]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that many a restriction placed on age-old practices (in the name of health, safety, anti-cruelty, and not just in relation to animals) are just red-tape bound excuses to generate income for prescribed practitioners?

 

[PerdixPerdix]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that many a restriction placed on age-old practices (in the name of health, safety, anti-cruelty, and not just in relation to animals) are just red-tape bound excuses to generate income for prescribed practitioners?

DEFINITELY!!!

at our vets it costs £25 per tail, then you have to have the pups chipped and vaccinated before you can get your hands on th certificates. it may be in the name of puppy health but its a load of bull.

i think everyone is in agreement that working dogs (by that i mean the overall breeds, not just a singular dog that happens to be used on a farm/shoot ect) are safer with docked tails as tail injury can be catastrophic. so why is the goverment making it so difficult to get done?? to me that is animal cruelty.

 

[SusieT]

You're lucky you can find a vet to dock, I know several who won't entertain it. And what's wrong with having the pups chipped and vacc to obtain the paperwork?
It's not something I agree with, so everyone is not in agreement that working dogs require docked tails.

 

[PerdixPerdix]

You're lucky you can find a vet to dock, I know several who won't entertain it. And what's wrong with having the pups chipped and vacc to obtain the paperwork?

because im not paying for them to tie me into a contract with them, i know a closer vets that chips for less and i would quite like to have a choice.

It's not something I agree with, so everyone is not in agreement that working dogs require docked tails.

why dont you agree that working dogs dont require tail docking???

 

[kirstyhen]

Poor pups and poor Mum! I don't think our litter even noticed when they were docked pre ban, the Mum certainly didn't give a hoot!

A split tail is a daily occurance in our house, fortunately he hasn't done it badly yet this year and it heals as soon as he's done it. It's when it goes completely raw and drives him mad that I hate. And all the Vet's will offer us is a bleedin' spray!

 

[FestiveSpirit]

You obviously didnt use my vet then - he must by law microchip etc but he doesnt faff about like that! He's in Ledbury too

 

[SusieT]

newtothis-I believe that evidence is at the mooment very anecdotal. A lot of breeds were docked, and all had 'reasons' for it. Since the docking ban obviously more and more undocked versions of dogs are appearing and I have yet to see any with problems. I believe it is a small proportion of dogs that are getting split tails, not the 'every dog' quote that many believe. I have docked, and I dislike the distress it causes and the potential for infection. That is my view on it. I am happy it is banned and hope the ban will extend in the future.
CareyR-If your vet is flouting the law he is not behaving as a professional should and I would be reluctant to use someone who is happy to blatantly ignore legal requirements, particularly when there is nothing wrong with chipping and vaccinating dogs (something we all should support imo)

 

[cobgirlie]

newtothis-I believe that evidence is at the mooment very anecdotal. A lot of breeds were docked, and all had 'reasons' for it. Since the docking ban obviously more and more undocked versions of dogs are appearing and I have yet to see any with problems. I believe it is a small proportion of dogs that are getting split tails, not the 'every dog' quote that many believe. I have docked, and I dislike the distress it causes and the potential for infection. That is my view on it. I am happy it is banned and hope the ban will extend in the future.
CareyR-If your vet is flouting the law he is not behaving as a professional should and I would be reluctant to use someone who is happy to blatantly ignore legal requirements, particularly when there is nothing wrong with chipping and vaccinating dogs (something we all should support imo)

What she said...but said so much more polietly (sp) than I would have.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

CareyR-If your vet is flouting the law he is not behaving as a professional should and I would be reluctant to use someone who is happy to blatantly ignore legal requirements, particularly when there is nothing wrong with chipping and vaccinating dogs (something we all should support imo)

Oh FFS Susie T do read what I wrote please! I clearly said he microchips etc to comply with legislation

 

[PerdixPerdix]

ahh ive only just learned to drive CareyR, and ledbury has not been travelled to yet lol! but cheers, i will keep it in mind.

SusieT, having been well associated with working gundogs, at least, for all of my life, i have seen the suffering an undocked dog goes through. and alot of tail damage is unrepairable and causes horrendous pain for the rest of their life.

i have also witnessed hundreds of puppies being docked the old way, as other posters have said, without any distress. hardly ever a whimper and can be returned straight to their mum without the distress and rigmarole that my puppies seem to have had to endure.

as for infection, ALL but four of the .... 11+8+6-3..= 22? puppies docked by the vet have had puss filled wounds on their tails, something which i have never experienced before.

i would suggest susie, that if you have docked yourself and caused the pups distress, you were probably doing it wrong. i definitely know terriermen that pride themselves on being able to dock a litter without them coming off the teat to complain.

 

[EAST KENT]

ahh ive only just learned to drive CareyR, and ledbury has not been travelled to yet lol! but cheers, i will keep it in mind.

SusieT, having been well associated with working gundogs, at least, for all of my life, i have seen the suffering an undocked dog goes through. and alot of tail damage is unrepairable and causes horrendous pain for the rest of their life.

i have also witnessed hundreds of puppies being docked the old way, as other posters have said, without any distress. hardly ever a whimper and can be returned straight to their mum without the distress and rigmarole that my puppies seem to have had to endure.

as for infection, ALL but four of the .... 11+8+6-3..= 22? puppies docked by the vet have had puss filled wounds on their tails, something which i have never experienced before.

i would suggest susie, that if you have docked yourself and caused the pups distress, you were probably doing it wrong. i definitely know terriermen that pride themselves on being able to dock a litter without them coming off the teat to complain.

Exactly..and that is how it should be done,the law IS an ass

 

[Aru]

The anesthetic used isn’t just because of legislation, pain in animals delays healing.
Using an anesthetic should prevent the pup going into shock and improve healing after, as well as being helping to prevent pain and distress. The vets general code of conduct goes with the animals welfare so once its shown that pups feel pain when docked pain prevention is consider the thing to do.
The weighing etc was for the sake of safe use of the anesthetic..pups could easily be given a toxic overdose otherwise. Its a pity that it wasn’t done more quickly and efficiently but accuracy is important in this case.
Scissors are easier to handle and allow more manuvering,ie theres and issue the presence of with bone etc,versus a blade and a surgical scissors they should be very very sharp.A blade can also be used its mostly personal preference though.

Using a blade a home to just chop of the tail in one clean cut may seem like a good idea..and it does cause less handling distress as the mother and pups are more familiar with the handler.

But the fact is your chopping off a limb.
A clean site, pain relief and area numbing is the basics surgery. All of the above are designed to prevent infection and side effects as well as welfare.
Personally I think it would be a good idea to carry out docking in the home or kennel site, but done properly by a vet, as then the pups aren't been exposed to the possible bugs in a vet practice and there would be less stress to the mother, but no one would want the extra expense of the call out fee.

To remove a tail with out any pain relief is cruel. Especially when it can be prevented. They used to do operations on infants(human) without anesthetic in the past as they believed they couldn’t feel pain.
Studies proved them wrong. Infants feel pain they just don’t express it in the same way as adults so it wasn’t acknowledged. A baby can show avoidance to the expectation of pain. Young pups are generally thought to be the same. They may suckle after that true. Suckling releases endorphins..the natural pain meds of the body. Its not proof they "didn’t feel a thing"

It all leads back to the dock or not argument in the end though. Why dock in the first place if your worried about distressing the mother and pups? But that is a different thread in itself and comes up enough here.

If anyone is interested this is a very good article that reviews the issues raised by tail docking. Its examines some of the arguments for it and against and explains the thoughts being the way it is now as regards anaesthetic etc. Its by the Australia veterinary record so a reputable source as well. Australia still allows docking.

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/167/6/226.1.full.pdf

 

[PerdixPerdix]

lol, thanks for the lecture, im sure it was well meant.
buuut... actually ive found, being operated on recently myself, that the administration of the anaesthetic took longer and was more painful than a normal docking would have been. they screamed like hell and his faffing about really upset the mum.

and he weighed the pups AFTER they were docked. AD he used scissors!! i know terriermen that would hit you if you used scissors instead of a sharp razor, as its painful and can cause damage to the tail end.

i really really disagree that it is cruel to remove the tail with no pain relief after what i have seen. the anaethetic was administered by needle and took at least a minute from start to finish, the puppies were still crying from that when he snipped their tails, then he dabbed on some 'caustic' as he called it, which has left little bald patches instead of a nice clean snip, and as i said, all the stumps have gone puss-y and stayed for 3 weeks or so, that is not normal!

 

[kirstyhen]

Surely Scissors, no matter how sharp, administer some kind of 'crushing' force??

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think, like a lot of things dog related, it's horses for courses. Do what works for you and your dogs.

Saying all things X are Y, in a blanket statement, never works, I have come to realise, so please feel free to slap me if I say anything in that vein

 

[PerdixPerdix]

kirstyhen, yes, thats why you dont use scissors, its not as ''quick and accurate'' as a very sharp blade, which takes literally a second.

 

[marmalade76]

newtothis-I believe that evidence is at the mooment very anecdotal. A lot of breeds were docked, and all had 'reasons' for it. Since the docking ban obviously more and more undocked versions of dogs are appearing and I have yet to see any with problems. I believe it is a small proportion of dogs that are getting split tails, not the 'every dog' quote that many believe. I have docked, and I dislike the distress it causes and the potential for infection. That is my view on it. I am happy it is banned and hope the ban will extend in the future.

100% agree.

 

[PerdixPerdix]

yes its easy to say that... until you see a springer spanial stuck to a barbed wire fence by its undocked tail.

yes it probably is a small proportion, because it is a relatively small proportion of dogs owned in this country that work.
i think its cruel that you both would condemn that small proportion to a lifetime of pain because you dont like the idea that docking has the potential for infection...

 

[SusieT]

he must by law microchip etc but he doesnt faff about like that -Was how I read it that he didn't faff about doing things like that (meaning microchipping..)
Puss filled wounds are obviously not a good sign-perhaps non sterile scissors used (I don't know the correct tool to use, so no comment on that) and him being a poor vet on his part? To judge all vet docking by one vet is foolish, same as it is foolish to judge all docking by one terrierman's docking.
You have your views, I have mine on the cruelty aspect of doing it without anaesthetic, you won't convince me it's not cruel and I won't convince you it is so I'll leave it at that.

 

[kirstyhen]

Since the docking ban obviously more and more undocked versions of dogs are appearing and I have yet to see any with problems

Happens every time we have a wet few weeks and he goes into cover. May not look much, but it drives him absolutely bonkers. He is the toughest dog I have ever met, nothing stops him, but when his tail is like that he stops running to chew it, he won't go near cover and is extremely protective of it.

He has split it open today on after giving my housemate a welcome, which is almost a daily occurance. It's pointless going to the Vets, they won't do anything about it. Amputations involve GA and the tip of the tail never heals as well as a docking when they are pups.

I can almost guarantee, after having to deal with him when it's bad, anyone would be pro-docking.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

he must by law microchip etc but he doesnt faff about like that -Was how I read it that he didn't faff about doing things like that (meaning microchipping..)

Ah, I apologise then. Yes my vet does everything required to comply with legislation, but he doesnt dither and faff about with the puppies as the OP's vet appears to have done.

 

[lizness]

Do these numb the area when they circumcise (babies(human))?

 

[Maesfen]

If the pups aren't to be sold as young pups I'd find an obliging and very experienced terrierman to do mine. No hassle, no upset to bitch or pups and no need to move them which I happen to believe is a load of pigwash anyway; bitch and pups should not be moved from their homes until they're older, just think of the other inmates of the waiting room and what they're bringing in with them; no thanks, not for my pups.

 

[Aru]

Sorry didnt mean to come across as a lecture just trying to show the otherside of the coin per se.
As in there was a basis behind the change to docking with anaesthetic is what I was trying to show.I just didnt explain it to well.

In theory its a good idea and a technically kinder one.In reality it is sometimes a different story by the sounds of things.

I haven't had to dock any pups yet so i cant really speak on it at length as to the pros and cons on blade versus sissors.Im going on the brief overview the vet at home told me about how to do it and what ive seen used.They dont teach us how to properly any more in collage,as its being strongly discouraged,so we learn it on work experience now.

The main issue I could see with the blade is what if you cut through the bone or cartilage?
exposed bone left open to infection is at a higher risk than plain tissue and doesnt heal as well...thats why the I was told about the surgery sissors..you can move around the bone if you encouter it, rather than go through it leaving an infection route directly in...i supose you could do a second dock with the blade if it was through bone and open..considering that the animal is still painfree but that really wouldnt be ideal...and would make the vet look incompetant

To be honest Id still go with the use of the anaesthetic though.Even if given the choice legally to chop without.But thats a personal thing.It has enough benifits for me to justify using it versus side effects.The anaesthetic should give some pain relief after as well that you don't get without.

The only other comment I feel I should make is that the pups Ive seen docked didnt undergo the same issues your's did.
How experienced is your vet at docking?
If I had a case where with had 18 out of 22 pups with post op infections after a surgery,esp a minor one like docking, Id be concerned.Is your vet aware that your having issues after?because you shouldnt be.A small precent maybe but 18 out of 22 is not normal.

I dont completely disagree with docking gundogs who work cover like the springers and increase their risk of damage,as it is difficult to treat an adult dog with tail damage..But i do wonder how many are docked in order to prevent one being damaged in later life?and how many pups die of infection or have side effects from the docking.

But I still would back the get it done under anaesthetic argument if docking is nessecary.Done properly by an experienced vet it should not be a painful procedure.

I disagree more with docking for the sake of cosmetic's and that being how they should look.."working" boxers anyone?and i wonder how many terriers are being used in work these days.

It has no purpose bar the owner's thinking it looks well.Infection from a dock wound can kill pups.Any open wound can give bacteria the entry point they need one,and this voluntary one beside the *****ting end as well so extra risk.So why add an unnessecary one? But again thats another thread topic entirely.

 

[PerdixPerdix]

If the pups aren't to be sold as young pups I'd find an obliging and very experienced terrierman to do mine. No hassle, no upset to bitch or pups and no need to move them which I happen to believe is a load of pigwash anyway; bitch and pups should not be moved from their homes until they're older, just think of the other inmates of the waiting room and what they're bringing in with them; no thanks, not for my pups.

made me smile, SOMEONE who KNOWS!

i friend of ours still does his own, and if he ever got questioned would say they were from ireland, suppose he cant do that much longer.

Kirstyhen, i bet it does, poor lad. its like a very big deep paper cut on the end of the finger you use most, its painful and can drive you mad. poor pup.

 

[3DE]

I used to be really anti docking until I had a dog that split his tail - now I can see that it does have a purpose (and not just for working dogs). My boy split his just knocking it through wagging on an inside wall - 8 months later and it still hadn't healed

I used to also think it was just short haired dogs that would have problems but my friend's BC and Kirstyhen's prove this isn't the case...

Boyd as a 'pup'

With it off

What actually is involved...

And now

The others

Freddie

Enzo

And Cooper

I'm thinking more tails will come off over time

Just a thought - why can't the tails be done with elastic bands like lambs? Just a quick ping and a week later they fall off...

 

[PerdixPerdix]

i have heard of lambringing a tail off. and though my initial thought is OMG NONONO HOW VERY CRUEL i dont know enough about what is involved to have an opinion.
docking at 3 days old is for me the way to go. saome people think its too young but after watching what my son had done after he was born puppies get off lightly.

 

[competitiondiva]

yes its easy to say that... until you see a springer spanial stuck to a barbed wire fence by its undocked tail.

yes it probably is a small proportion, because it is a relatively small proportion of dogs owned in this country that work.
i think its cruel that you both would condemn that small proportion to a lifetime of pain because you dont like the idea that docking has the potential for infection...

I wasn't going to get drawn into this but if your dogs tail becomes injured as an adult then you can still have it docked, so there is no lifetime of pain! I put it to you though why determine the outcome of a whole litter of pups by docking all of their tails when only a very small fraction of them will ever see the working fields??! Most are still sold on as pets.

My lab cross suffered from tail wag injury, so I know how distressing it is, she had her tail amputated as an adult under aneasthetic (so no pain!) why not tackle the problem once it has become clear that the individual has a problem, due to the low percentage that actually do have one! plus you talk about field dogs but there are field dogs out there that have never traditionally had their tails docked!! labradors? and of all the dogs I've come across that have had tail problems, labradors, lurchers and setters are the most common breeds!!

With regard to how it is done, yes a good breeder, terrierman etc who has done it for years will probably do a very good job and offer less stress than the system now, but how many other people are there out there that will in actual fact do it wrong, and cause more suffering!! Therefore I am more than happy that only a vet can do it. with regard to which vets will do it, the RCVS actually recommends that it is not done, and because there is the risk of the litter being done illegally etc they don't want to risk breaking the law so few vets do do it!

Microchipping as others have pointed out is part of the legislation that identifies that pup as one that is legally docked, therefore must be done. And what is wrong with that anyway, the more microchipped dogs out there the better!!