docking distress.

Maesfen said:
If the pups aren't to be sold as young pups I'd find an obliging and very experienced terrierman to do mine. No hassle, no upset to bitch or pups and no need to move them which I happen to believe is a load of pigwash anyway; bitch and pups should not be moved from their homes until they're older, just think of the other inmates of the waiting room and what they're bringing in with them; no thanks, not for my pups.
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In that case both you and the terrierman would be breaking the law and could face fines and possibly prison sentances, your risk!!!..............
 
competitiondiva said:
I wasn't going to get drawn into this but if your dogs tail becomes injured as an adult then you can still have it docked, so there is no lifetime of pain!
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My dog has been to the Vets several times with severe tail injuries, and we get fobbed off time and time again as they are so reluctant to amputate.

He is a working bred Springer, but unfortunantly no one told him he only works a few days a year, so he stills goes into cover like he is working on every walk. I would guess that every dog in his litter is the same, whether they work or not. That's why you dock every pup - because Spaniels don't know that they aren't at work everyday. You can't tell them to stop thrashing their tail around in brambles because it is literally being ripped to shreds and you can't keep them out of cover, so what other options are there?
That photo of my dogs tail isn't one cut, it's lots and lots of cuts and splits, and having tried just about everything I can tell you there isn't a lot I can do to stop it.
 
kirstyhen said:
My dog has been to the Vets several times with severe tail injuries, and we get fobbed off time and time again as they are so reluctant to amputate.

He is a working bred Springer, but unfortunantly no one told him he only works a few days a year, so he stills goes into cover like he is working on every walk. I would guess that every dog in his litter is the same, whether they work or not. That's why you dock every pup - because Spaniels don't know that they aren't at work everyday. You can't tell them to stop thrashing their tail around in brambles because it is literally being ripped to shreds and you can't keep them out of cover, so what other options are there?
That photo of my dogs tail isn't one cut, it's lots and lots of cuts and splits, and having tried just about everything I can tell you there isn't a lot I can do to stop it.
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I agree IF your dog has a problem with it's tail there is nothing you can do, as I said my own dog did! I would argue your point that every pup in his litter also has the same problems! I know lots of spaniels who don't have an issue with theirs at all. I would though be pressing my vets into finding out why they are reluctant to operate as you can easily prove that leaving your dogs tail as it is is causing him to suffer? They can still remove a tail to eleviate suffering!
 
competitiondiva said:
I wasn't going to get drawn into this but if your dogs tail becomes injured as an adult then you can still have it docked, so there is no lifetime of pain! I put it to you though why determine the outcome of a whole litter of pups by docking all of their tails when only a very small fraction of them will ever see the working fields??! Most are still sold on as pets.

My lab cross suffered from tail wag injury, so I know how distressing it is, she had her tail amputated as an adult under aneasthetic (so no pain!) why not tackle the problem once it has become clear that the individual has a problem, due to the low percentage that actually do have one! plus you talk about field dogs but there are field dogs out there that have never traditionally had their tails docked!! labradors? and of all the dogs I've come across that have had tail problems, labradors, lurchers and setters are the most common breeds!!

With regard to how it is done, yes a good breeder, terrierman etc who has done it for years will probably do a very good job and offer less stress than the system now, but how many other people are there out there that will in actual fact do it wrong, and cause more suffering!! Therefore I am more than happy that only a vet can do it. with regard to which vets will do it, the RCVS actually recommends that it is not done, and because there is the risk of the litter being done illegally etc they don't want to risk breaking the law so few vets do do it!

Microchipping as others have pointed out is part of the legislation that identifies that pup as one that is legally docked, therefore must be done. And what is wrong with that anyway, the more microchipped dogs out there the better!!
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Totally agree with everything there, and if all dogs that work in cover are in such great danger of injuring their tails, why arn't foxhounds docked??????
 
marmalade76 said:
Totally agree with everything there, and if all dogs that work in cover are in such great danger of injuring their tails, why arn't foxhounds docked??????
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Quite often here in Kent you wil see hounds with bloodied stern ends,we have lots of deep woods with bramble undergrowth so as they push through it seeking a line ,that`s when it happens.Years ago the East Kent did have a bitch who had to be half docked,due to damage,she was then called ,un-originally ,Stumpy! :D
 
competitiondiva, firstly EVERY single one of my puppies have gone to working homes.

secondly some adult tails can be docked, some can not. because of the major blood vessels in the tail vets are often very reluctant to amputate. there can also be nerve damage afterward, similarly to amputating a human limb.
 
marmalade76 said:
Totally agree with everything there, and if all dogs that work in cover are in such great danger of injuring their tails, why arn't foxhounds docked??????
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If you watch foxhounds working it's not very often you see them 'wagging' their sterns at the same time, it only waves with the motion of them moving so nothing like a spaniel/retriever TBH; that's not to say individuals don't wave a lot but if it does, it usually means the front half's not working as hard as it should! They will often wave as they move from covert to covert or at the meet when they're glad to see you but when they're working it tends to just follow while the front half is doing the work. As someone else said, you do get the odd exception to the rule that does get damage and it's usually a right pain in the butt to get it to clear up quickly too.

ETA glad they've gone to working homes N-T-T!
 
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Newtothis,your Vet ????? if he causes that much distress to a new born litter i would suggest he is in the wrong job!!!! When our pups were docked .not bred for a few years now,they would hardly notice,Mum would go out for a quick bite to eat and to relieve herself,when she came back pups would tuck into the milkbar and there would not be any problems,not even a speck of blood on the white Vetbed.The pups should not be distressed if it is done professionly and correctly.
 
Docking should be banned, and thank god it is. Why on earth not work the other way round. Leave your dog's tail as nature intended. If it splits its tail on a regular basis, then have it docked on one of those occasions. My nails might split, but I don't want them all pulled out in case they do. None of our working dogs had docked tails, and none ever damaged one.
 
Rose Folly said:
Docking should be banned, and thank god it is. Why on earth not work the other way round. Leave your dog's tail as nature intended. If it splits its tail on a regular basis, then have it docked on one of those occasions. My nails might split, but I don't want them all pulled out in case they do. None of our working dogs had docked tails, and none ever damaged one.
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Because if they split they get horrifically infected and sore and docking at an adult age is a serious operation that can result in incontinence and occasionally problems with the back legs. It took 8 months before my dog was in enough of a mess to convince the vet to take the tail off - now that is cruelty.

As someone who has never had a dog with a split tail I think you are looking at it from an idealistic viewpoint Split tails are easily done in certain breeds and can be pretty horrific!
 
SusieT said:
newtothis-I believe that evidence is at the mooment very anecdotal. A lot of breeds were docked, and all had 'reasons' for it. Since the docking ban obviously more and more undocked versions of dogs are appearing and I have yet to see any with problems. I believe it is a small proportion of dogs that are getting split tails, not the 'every dog' quote that many believe. I have docked, and I dislike the distress it causes and the potential for infection. That is my view on it. I am happy it is banned and hope the ban will extend in the future.
CareyR-If your vet is flouting the law he is not behaving as a professional should and I would be reluctant to use someone who is happy to blatantly ignore legal requirements, particularly when there is nothing wrong with chipping and vaccinating dogs (something we all should support imo)
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we have had two spaniels- one field trials one- docked, and one show type- undocked. The show one is constantly undergoing anti-biotics and in and out of the vets for damage to the tip of the tail. Spaniels need docking for working the skin on the end just isnt tough enough- she has gone through more disstress due to not being docked than being docked. However I agree with the chipping and vaccinating.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
Because if they split they get horrifically infected and sore and docking at an adult age is a serious operation that can result in incontinence and occasionally problems with the back legs. It took 8 months before my dog was in enough of a mess to convince the vet to take the tail off - now that is cruelty.

As someone who has never had a dog with a split tail I think you are looking at it from an idealistic viewpoint Split tails are easily done in certain breeds and can be pretty horrific!
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very much agree with this!!
 
kirstyhen - we bough an adult spaniel who had been badly docked - his tail was club like on the end, and he was always splitting it. We had him re-docked, GA, healed perfectly, never had another issue with it.

The last litter we bred (spaniels) were docked and dew claws removed. Vet needed letter saying they were intended for working homes, to see my OH's gun certificate, needed a letter from the game keeper where OH shoots to say that the bitch was used as a working dog, they were docked and dew clawed with scissors (no anasthetic) and a few of the tails became infected. The bitch wasn't bothered about the docking proceedure, and the pups settled down within a few minutes of docking.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
Just a thought - why can't the tails be done with elastic bands like lambs? Just a quick ping and a week later they fall off...
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Is it that quick for tails? :confused:

The lambs at the yard were ringed (poor little things couldn't walk for two days, think the old man is a bit too blind to be doing this now!) and it took nearly 6 weeks for their bits to drop off. I don't imagine it was painless.

I'd much rather a working dog were docked: with three springers myself, I know exactly what people mean about the wagging.
 
cinammontoast said:
Is it that quick for tails? :confused:

The lambs at the yard were ringed (poor little things couldn't walk for two days, think the old man is a bit too blind to be doing this now!) and it took nearly 6 weeks for their bits to drop off. I don't imagine it was painless.
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He must have done it wrong - it's completely painless (they don't make any noise when I do it and lambs are noisy buggers ;)) and if all the blood supply is cut off they fall off just like a scab (7-10 days). As for them not being able to walk - not seen that before (and I've de-balled and de-tailed a lot of lambs ;)). How old were they when they were done? They need to be done at less than a week old for them to be traumatised the least...
 
OP your poor pups! Sounds like them & Mum had a stressful time. It is an absolutely ridiculous law. I worked on a piggery during college and despite being a student having my first experience of pigs I was trained to and allowed to dock piglets tails and cut their teeth. For the first few days I was only allowed to practise on any stillborns so that I caused no distress and then when I had the technique down I was allowed to do them.

My own dog whom I got at 4yrs of age is not docked and their are times I wish he was. He has a big fluffy tail (bernese md X Cav King Charles!) and I keep his body clipped and keep a fluffy end on his tail to give it some protection. I also keep it coated in Mane & Tail spray to help stop it sticking in things. Now admittedly my mutt is a soft as butter and not the working type but I fully agree with docking certain breeds!
 
just to add, not all puppy dockings work perfectly, even when done by an 'expert'.
my cousin has a litter sister to 1 of my JRTs. mine has her tail (i picked her at a day old and insisted tail was left on), his was docked because he didn't pick her till later. dockings were done by someone very experienced. the bitch is now about 9 years old and has had constant problems with her stump. she gnaws and worries at it, and the vet thinks a nerve was damaged when it was done. :( :( :(
her sister, with full tail, has never had a problem with it.
i'm no fan of docking BUT i've never had a dog split its tail... if I did, I might change my mind.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
He must have done it wrong - it's completely painless (they don't make any noise when I do it and lambs are noisy buggers ;)) and if all the blood supply is cut off they fall off just like a scab (7-10 days). As for them not being able to walk - not seen that before (and I've de-balled and de-tailed a lot of lambs ;)). How old were they when they were done? They need to be done at less than a week old for them to be traumatised the least...
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He waited til the bits dropped and one of them had little horns coming through: probably way too late, knowing him. He is appalling. He's currently objecting to us saying one of the rams must be castrated as the interbreeding will continue otherwise. Both rams need doing but because they're mini black somethings, he doesn't want to do it. Idiot.:mad: We've even offered to take them to the RVC for him. One of the poor lambs literally walked on it's front legs for a day-awful to watch.:(
 
All the lambs I ever saw ringed did definately notice, and staggered around afterwards in pain.

Is there such a problem with the dogs' tails due to inbreeding or something, or are we using the wrong dog for the job if its having to be "modified"? Serious question, not sarcasm.

I'm firmly in the anasthetic camp.
 
Ringing lambs is painful..agreed,farm animals are very much abused and subjected to various procedures without pain relief.Puppies of two days are much less with it than a flight one such as a lamb or calf,if docking IS done properly..whilst suckling off Mum,and using a special dog nail clipper that forms a "round", the tail ,which is basically just cartilage at that age,is removed with no pinching or pain.The end is then cauterised with Pot Permanganate to seal and sterilise.
I too imagined all sorts of horrors..until I learned to do it myself,and that certainly educated me.

You cannot beat actual experience as opposed to theory based on emotion.
 
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