Docking. Maybe a daft question

RubysGold

RubysGold

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Docking is illegal, but some of the puppy adverts I've come across say legally docked.
When is docking legal?
I'm just looking at spaniels, not getting one yet but having a look.
I don't want a docked spaniel :S

Also, why on earth would you remove a puppys dew claws?
 
It is legal to dock the tails of working dogs, as Hen's Otto would tell you breeds such as spaniels can make a real mess of their tales when in coverwise. And most breeders remove back dew claws if the pups are born with them, far better a quick snip at a couple of days old than a ga and operation on the adult dog who keeps tearing their dew claws. Not sure about removal of fronts though.
 
Working dogs can still be legally docked.

If you have ever seen an adult dog which has ripped out a dew claw (and my lurcher did it three or four times
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) you will know exactly why they are removed - I cannot understand anyone leaving them on
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Docking is legal for some breeds of dogs that are intended for working in areas where they can receive tail injuries. Spaniels used for flushing and/or retrieving game can be docked. Removing dew claws is to prevent nasty injuries when the claw rips away.
 
Splotchy: All of mine have dew claws, I've never seen a dog rip one out, but I can imagine there would be alot of blood. What happened to your lurcher? Did you have to get the dew claw removed eventually?
 
Our previous cocker wasnt docked which actually took some getting used to but it was lovely to see her with a full tail. Ruby however is proper working and has been docked and dewclawed. I thought it might bother me but she has plenty of stump to wag!

If you do go ahead and buy a docked puppy make sure you get the vet paperwork from whoever you are buying from as there is a special form the vet fills out to go with each puppy.
 
Thanks Spaniel.
I definitely won't buy a docked puppy, I want my pup to have a tail. I don't know what to think about dewclaws being removed, I don't like that idea :S
 
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Splotchy: All of mine have dew claws, I've never seen a dog rip one out, but I can imagine there would be alot of blood. What happened to your lurcher? Did you have to get the dew claw removed eventually?

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There isnt really a lot of blood, but it is incredibly sore for them - imagine someone ripping out one of your nails, it is so tender etc
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I didnt need to have it removed in the end as it never grew back eventually - I did ask the vet, and he said best not to with an adult dog unless absolutely 100% necessary
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I have known quite a few dogs rip them out, but that is mostly sighthounds when they are running around. I never see my dogs ever using the dew claws, so would always prefer to have them removed
 
Ah I see. Thanks Splotchy
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How do the dew claws get removed when the dog is a puppy? Surely it hurts them just as much? And why doesn't it just grow back on a puppy?
 
The dew claws are removed when the puppy is less than 3 days old (I think the guidance is before the eyes are open) and it is done by snipping out the bone which forms into the dew claw, which at that stage is still very soft, more like gristle rather than bone? I have seen hundreds of pups being done, and in every case the pup will squeak momentarily then get on with feeding from mum
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Ah, ok Splotchy. Thanks for taking the time to respond
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Sounds like removing them isn't as bad as I first thought.
So I won't say no to a puppy because its dew claws are removed.
I definitely want my puppy to have a tail though.
 
Like Splotchy I have seen many pups have their dew claws removed and it really is a seconds job for an expert. In GSDs only back dew claws are removed, we always used to check the litter at birth to see how many head them. Interestingly I haven't had a pup born with back dews for many years now.
 
Have a look at the Kennel Gazette and read the number of applications in for dogs to be docked (owners have to apply and get a 'by' from the KC if they then want to show a dog over a certain age which has been docked) lots of boxers getting tail injuries, apparently, ho hum, and has anyone ever seen a working Kerry Blue Terrier recently?

I've known lots of dogs damage dew claws, Bella has ripped both her front ones.
 
To put it from the other side-there is no real way of measuring if it is painful, an arguement that probably revolves around what age animals start to feel pain.
I often wonder if we would do the same to a child, on the theory they don't feel pain.
So not trying to argue-just putting it from the other side. I've seen it with lambs(the ringing) and pigs (docking) and neither seemed at all painless.
 
We circumcise male babies in some cutures, surely that is a similar thing? My ex-OH was circumsized (sp?), and assured me that he did not remember a thing about it being done, so did not know if it was painful
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Boxers getting tail injuries. Now that one doesn't surprise me.
I walk a boxer and he's constantly wacking his tail against doors and walls, when he's excited (which is 24/7)
Luckily so far he hasn't injured it. I much prefer him with his tail then a boxer without one.
 
We have working dogs, 7 spaniels and a lab - all of the spaniels are docked bar 1 .. Jake and OMG the poor guy
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Every time he's out working his tail is split and red raw
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I've spoken to vets ... i've suggested amputation of said tail (to the normal docked length) and vets agree this is the way forward for him. Either that or be constantly living with what is essentially an 'open wound' being the end of his tail.

All those docked - never have a problem.

My OH's mother has Rottie's .. Diesel has his dew claws and he is forever catching/ ripping them. All the others don't have them.

If you're looking for a 'pet' for want of a better term - i can see why docking isn't essential
 
I had assumed babies were circumsised with pain relief. I have no idea if this is the case or no.
I personally don't agree with docking or dew claw removal-I don't see the need. And before everyone tells me all about the undocked dogs that have had split tails etc- I know all that and have my own opinion.
 
About dew claws, Norwegian Lundehunds have six toes! photo of Lundehund paw

They where bred to hunt puffin birds on the steep sides of Norwegian fjords and the extra toes helps the dogs when climbing and jumping up and down the "mountains". They've also developed the ability to f.ex. bend their head backwards along their own spine and they can seal their ears nearly shut by folding them forward or backward.

But that is the only breed I can remember where the dew claws actually have a function to fulfil.
 
By working, what do you mean?
Like gundog work?
I want a spaniel, and will be doing agility.
Is it just certain breeds that have problems with their tails?
 
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By working, what do you mean?
Like gundog work?

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Yes, Dad's a Gamekeeper. His spaniels are out in the beating line i.e. through cover such as brambles etc 5 days a week!! My 2 spaniels (and lab) are used for picking up, again through thick cover.

I can't imagine having an un-docked dog doing agility would affect him though ...

Having said all this - i have spoken to owners of working dogs (gundogs) in the past who have dogs with an entire tail and have no problems ... although these are few and far between ...
 
My girl's docked too - she's not a working dog but had her tail half sawn off in a door by the people who had her, just before they dumped her with a massive infection in the wound
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Rescue centre had it docked/amputated properly before we got her. No dew claws either, but I really don't want to think about how they did that...
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Happy ending though, we got her
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Can I just suggest that if you are getting a Spaniel that you actually research what the breed is used for, it will save you a lot of problems in the future.

As you are intending it as a Pet, no docking is not necessary, however they are bred to work, when not docked their tails can get in a real mess.
 
Hen: Yes, I will do lots of research, I'm not even going to start looking for a couple of months, plenty of time to research
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Its still pretty much an idea, not a definite.
 
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Hen: Yes, I will do lots of research, I'm not even going to start looking for a couple of months, plenty of time to research
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Its still pretty much an idea, not a definite.

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However, you said a while ago that you didn't like Spaniels. You also said you were waiting last time and then said you were getting a puppy and now you are already looking at adverts.
I apologise if this sounds rude, however you come across as making rather rash decisions, and as a lover of Spaniels, I wouldn't want to see you come unstuck with one, because of a rash decision!
 
I understand your concerns Hen.
I admit I made a daft decision last time, but I've learnt from that.
I do like springer spaniels, not keen on the other spaniels.
I was looking at adverts to see whats available and what sort of price I was looking at. Not going to go get one until probably February.
 
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Can I just suggest that if you are getting a Spaniel that you actually research what the breed is used for, it will save you a lot of problems in the future.

As you are intending it as a Pet, no docking is not necessary, however they are bred to work, when not docked their tails can get in a real mess.

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My old Spaniel was taken beating a few times. He never injured his tail beating, BUT, he did injure it from wagging on door frames etc.

I have mentioned on here before that he ended up having a section of the tail removed. He wasn't taken up to "docking" length as the vet thought this would be too painful for him, when sitting etc post surgery.

I do fully understand WHY it is done and always said my next spaniel would be docked. However, as I prefer the look of a show spaniel it wasn't really an option for me. Harvey (did I mention he arrives in TEN DAYS!!!) has a full tail.

I may live to regret not going for a docked worker, but we just couldn't find a worker that wasn't a solid colour. I expressly didn't want another black as I couldn't bring myself to buy a Jasper replica.

I am fully prepared for the potential need for amputation of the end of the tail, where it is most thin, again if need be.

Harvey doesn't have hind dew claws. They weren't removed, they just don't exist.
 
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I understand your concerns Hen.
I admit I made a daft decision last time, but I've learnt from that.
I do like springer spaniels, not keen on the other spaniels.
I was looking at adverts to see whats available and what sort of price I was looking at. Not going to go get one until probably February.

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Spaniels are bred to be able to work, to some degree, indepentently and are bred to hit thick cover hard and at speed, hence they can be ridiculously hard headed, fearless and thick skinned.
I dread to think what would have happened to him had Otto gone into the hands of someone who had no experiance of the breed whatsoever. I struggled dreadfully with him, despite having my Parents on hand to help who have owned Spaniels for over 20 years.

Springers are also not a dissimilar size to Collies, yes you get small ones (which are usually even more rocket fuelled!) but a Springer should be around 20 inches at the shoulder.
I thought you were after a Small Dog, or at least smaller than a Collie?
Surely if you want something for Agility of that size, a Collie (which I believe your Parents have experiance of) would be your best bet.
 
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