Docking. Maybe a daft question

I dont have an issue with docking providing that it is done properly with an anesethetic!
Pups can feel pain.Our lecturer,who wrote a widely published book on veterinary embrology, is of the opinion that neonates in the first 3 weeks of life have a hypersensitivity to pain so they may even feel pain to a stroger degree than an adult.True they wont remember the pain in a while but if thats the excuse for docking then surely it can be used as an excuse for all sort of abuse,the dumb animal will just forget about the pain.
Docking lambs tails with a ring can cause pain to...ive seen plenty of lambs go down for a while after a tail ring or scrotal ring is applied..but considering the laws that insisted you had to use an anesthetic on calves over a certain age before you burn horn buds out of their skulls are only fairly recent it could be a while before anything changes about lambing rings.

The amount of pups who get docked by someone using a Blade or a sissors has always been a hugh problem when it comes to docking dogs.
If docking can be discouraged and the public opinion become that most dogs should have tails then less dogs would be expected to be docked so the amount put under the knief will decrease.
Plenty of people just have their dogs particularly the terriers docked because "that's what their meant to look like".I have yet to meet anyone who got their JRT docked because they are ratters/rabbiters who wanted to be able to grab him by the tail to pull im out of a hole

... at least now dogs are expected to be working dogs before they can be docked and legally shown.I understand that it does prevent injurys in some dogs but i dont believe that docking is nessecary in a lot of cases where it is applied.
 
Hen: I've looked into things a bit more now, and can have a bigger dog, not bigger then a collie, but not small. Infact a small dog would be less suited to me.
Just because my parents have collies doesn't mean I should have one. I want something different.
I'm sure lots of people change their minds a few times before they actually get a dog
 
F.ex. = For example.



Last i heard, only doctors does circumcision with pain relief but most circumcisions are done by a religious person with permit to perform circumcisions and that is not done with pain relief.

Personally I prefer dogs with tails, I do feel sympathy for dogs with tail injuries but I still think the breeders of docked breeds clearly are breeding dogs that isn't completely suitable for their intended purpose. Norwegian Lundehunds is a good example, their unusual breed characteristics are either adaptions to make them better hunters <u>or</u> to minimize the risk of them damaging themselves while hunting. F.ex. by folding their ears, the Puffin birds doesn't aim for the dog ears when they defend their eggs/themselves.


All of my dogs have had/has dew claws on their front legs and this far it haven't caused any problems, one of my late dogs also had dew claws on her rear legs without any problem. I don't believe that it is 100% painless to remove dew claws on the rear legs but I do believe we are talking about a short and soon forgotten pain so personally I'm not against removing them.
 
IMHO a Springer would not suit you or the job you want it to do. I'm sure if you go ahead I will be proved wrong, but that is just my opinion.
I also think that instead of being determined to buy a Pedigreed Puppy, you should be looking at rescuing.

And perhaps instead of wanting a different breed purely because your Parents have Collies, you should be utilising their expertise and getting something similar so they can help you. A Springer is vastly different to a Collie.

I was in a similar situation to you when getting my first dog. My Parent's had always had Spaniels and I had worked with Dogs for years. However I soon realised I actually knew diddly squat when it came to having full responsibilty for a dog and if I hadn't had my Parent's help to rely on I would have come unstuck very quickly. Luckily I had chosen a breed which they had lots of experiance with and I know have a fantastic dog, but for the first few months I really began to think I had made a huge mistake.

Please don't think I am trying to be nasty, I am just trying to make sure that when you do get a dog it is the right one and that owning it is a pleasure for both you and it.
 
The Hen-:S I'm not even the OP but talk about attacking someone!
Have to say you had a bad experience with your first dog, at the end of the day with a sensible attitude you can't go far wrong! Not everyone will have this problem!
But I've never found having a dog challenging, I think things can be overanalysed and the idea that someone should have the breed their parents had seems very odd to me.
Everyone has the right to choose if they want a rescue or a pup, and not be haraunged for it.
Your post comes across as extremely patronising, and sadly a type of post often seen in here where dogs are seen as difficult creatures whom should only be owned by experts when to my mind in reality, unless with previous issues or poor training, they are not hard to understand.
 
I didn't read it like that at all, I read it as an experienced spangle owner giving a younger forum member some sound first-hand advice.

I don't think anyone on here would claim to be an expert
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I quite literally grew up with dogs (I went to my first show at two weeks old) my mother is a breeder and a judge and I thought I knew a lot until a certain big grey fella bulldozed his way into my life and helped me re-write my own rulebook.

I am glad you have never found a dog challenging, but some of us have.
If so few dogs were challenging, the rescues would not be full and there would be no one on here to ask or give advice
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Despite what you might think, I believe this is still one of the friendlier parts of the forum, let's keep it that way, eh?

Cuppa tea?
 
The OP has admitted she made a rash decision whenchoosing a beagle pup, and luckily has realised that now. I think Hen is only trying to offer sensible advice, had RG been talking about getting a GSD I would have been the same. Like CC I have been involved with GSDs all my life and yet my latest has thrown up problems I have not met before. Owning all animals is a constant learning curve.
RG you are doing the right thing by doing lots of research, go and meet breeders and if you want to do agility see how many springers are competing (I don't remember many but that was years ago). One point,you say you are hoping to get a pup in February, most decent breeders often have pups booked up before they are born so you may hve to wait a bit longer to find the right pup. Good luck with your search, and although you don't want a collie, if your mum has loads of experience I would let her help you.
 
My pups came with their dew claws but it was decided that we would have the back ones removed as we didn't want to run the risk of them pulling them off. The boys were well attached so were left but the girls was just hanging on by some skin so hers were removed the same time as she was spayed at about 6/7 months. She had little pink bandages on them and were tender for a few days but that was all. I don't think them not having dew claws should put you off getting a puppy. Also agree about adopting, but then I'm biast (sp?) as all of my dogs/cats have been from rescue centres. Good luck finding one! I can't look anymore, its too tempting to bring them all home lol.
 
QR

Henry is a show spaniel with a full tail, which I like for him. HOWEVER he is not a working dog and in any case the cover around here is composed more of bracken than brambles, reducing the prospect of injury for him. If I was looking for a worker, I would seek out a docked litter for the sake of the dog.

I got him from the Dogs Trust at about 16 months old, so rescue is not out of the question.

We had a labrador when I was growing up, so I thought I would be ok with another gundog. However he has been very different, and has taken quite some getting used to for me. Henry is also, believe it or not, a very calm spaniel as they go! But it has still taken a bit of getting used to. I have dropped two dress sizes as a result of all the exercise he needs.

Spaniels are great dogs but they do have an instinct to work - even the fancy spaniels like Henry! Only this morning we were giving a field of horses a 'masterclass' (well, something like that anyway
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) in hidden retrieves (they all started off on the far side but came running over to see what the mad human and dog were doing in the hedge outside their paddock
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) and I am still learning to channel this. They need lots of stimulation and exercise too. There's no reason one couldn't do agility and do well, but they would also need an opportunity to use their instincts to hunt and retrieve things. They will thank you for giving them this outlet.

As it doesn't sound like you are planning to work your dog OP (in the sense of gundog work) I would look for a showbred dog as its instincts should be weaker and it will have a full tail. Make sure its hips are sound, especially as agility is your plan. But do also bear in mind what I have said about giving it a chance to do some spanielly stuff as it will love it!

Also, remember that spangles all suffer from one distressing condition to a greater or lesser extent - Sudden Onset Deafness in Spaniels (otherwise known as an attack of the sods
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), generally triggered when they see a rabbit, squirrel or similar
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They are stimulated by sight AND smell so the whole world is full of distractions for them! At my training class there was a qualified trainer with a springer, who jokingly told me she had got him as a challenge because someone had told her you couldn't call yourself a real dog trainer until you had trained a spaniel... they won't give you an easy ride
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Thanks for all replies.
Hen: I don't take it as you being nasty. Youre just trying to help.

I know there are lots of rescue dogs out there but my last 4 have been rescues and I want a puppy this time round.

I have my heart set on a spaniel, I know they are different to collies, all breeds are different, but I will learn as I go on. If I struggle, I'm sure there are some trainers out there experienced with spaniels.
I honestly think that if I'm sensible, ask the breeders lots of questions and do lots of training, that I will be able to look after one.

I have done agility for quite a few years, and there are a fair number of springers doing it, and they are good at it
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I saw a demo a while back where a man was training his dog with dummies, ready to go hunting, and I may well do similar training with my spaniel.
 
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I saw a demo a while back where a man was training his dog with dummies, ready to go hunting, and I may well do similar training with my spaniel.

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That's what Henry and I have been up to! We have just been playing in the house, and I have to admit I took his dummy out this morning with some trepidation as I half expected him to totally ignore it but he absolutely loved it, and considering we had never used the dummy outside of the living room before he did really well! He got distracted twice, but other than that he got it every time
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So I would highly recommend it as a fun game for spaniels!
 
Well look at Splotchy, she comes from a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owning family and she is besotted by/in her Greyhound rescues, so obviously changing bred from what your family is used to, can sometimes be a good decision.



Although another person I know, her mother was a Borzoi breeder and when she moved out she wanted a different breed, she then happily owned Norwegian Buhunds for between 30 and 40 years (maybe more) but guess what she owns now?





A Borzoi.







And a Chihuahua.



So who knows...
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I know there are lots of rescue dogs out there but my last 4 have been rescues and I want a puppy this time round.


[/ QUOTE ]

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My 2 dogs I adopted as puppies and my YO has just adopted a 12wk old collie pup from the local rescue
 
I apologise if people think I was being rude.

However I love Springers, and it makes me angry that so many are bought because they are cute puppies without people understanding what the breed is bred for, and end up in rescues because they are 'destructive' or 'loopy'.
I may have been unlucky to get a 'difficult' dog, perhaps I was stupid or have poorly trained my dog, but it's not that rare an occurance.
I apologise for making assumptions but I have read several posts by the OP and got the impression she was prone to making rash decisions.
If the OP takes on board what I have said and decides a Springer is not for her, then I have saved her from buying a dog and perhaps regretting it, if she decides it IS for her, then I hope I have helped her make a informed decision.
 
Throwing the dummy in the living room was how I learned of Jasper's climbing capabilities. I missed my aim and it landed on the table. He was straight up there after it.....scratchy claws and all!

I had never owned any dog before I got Jasper and he was predominantly a pet. We did have issues with recall when I moved to the farm, but he had always been ok beforehand. Infact he used to go beating with my ex-husband. They did get some funny stares.....the show bred cocker participating in a few flushing drives.
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Not to do any disservice to Show Bred Spaniels (I would hate to incur the wrath of them or their owners
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) but they are a very different kettle of fish to working bred dogs. Yes the instincts are still there, but they aren't quite as dominant as that of a Working dog.
So imagine all the problems you had as a result of his gundoggy-type traits (deafness as a result of scent etc!) and then times them by 100, then you have your Working Bred Spangle
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(But we love any Spangle, show or working
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For our sins some might say
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)

(And sorry if I'm being patronising again, I clearly can't help myself
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)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not to do any disservice to Show Bred Spaniels (I would hate to incur the wrath of them or their owners
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) but they are a very different kettle of fish to working bred dogs. Yes the instincts are still there, but they aren't quite as dominant as that of a Working dog.
So imagine all the problems you had as a result of his gundoggy-type traits (deafness as a result of scent etc!) and then times them by 100, then you have your Working Bred Spangle
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(But we love any Spangle, show or working
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For our sins some might say
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)

(And sorry if I'm being patronising again, I clearly can't help myself
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)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, obviously I agree with that, but I would like to highlight (for the point of the debate) that Jasper was still very scent orientated, even though he wasn't a worker, which really showed itself when we moved to the farm. I'd never seen him so willful and pig blooming ignorant. Fields of yummy smells...."C'ya, I'm off!!!!" was his best trick!

For a non-worker he still "automatically" quartered in front of you, zig zagging, nose on the ground. I imagine a worker would've been oodles of more "fun".
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Oh the other hand....imagine the frustration of trying to train an airhead to work! My ex saw it as a challenge. Shame he saw other women as a challenge too!
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Bless Jasper
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Otto is ridiculously scent AND sight motivated, it's a bloody nightmare at times, but sometimes (like on Wed) when you see him doing what he has been bred to do and he is working with you (rather than against you!) it makes all the rubbish days worthwhile
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[ QUOTE ]
Bless Jasper
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Otto is ridiculously scent AND sight motivated, it's a bloody nightmare at times, but sometimes (like on Wed) when you see him doing what he has been bred to do and he is working with you (rather than against you!) it makes all the rubbish days worthwhile
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from one (working) spangle owner to another ... here here!
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I totally agree, especially when owning a Border Collie as well. It's great to see her working the cows. I can't understand how some adapt to household life as ours goes nuts when in the house. She wants to be outside, rounding up stock!

As I don't really intend to go beating/flushing with our new Cocker, and I like the head on the show Cocker, I decided to go for another one. I almost, almost went for a Springer as they tend to grow less coat for muddy farm walks, but decided against it for some of the reasons you've mentioned here.

We will do lots of work with Harvey, around the farm, and I am fully adamant that he will go off the lead better than Jasper did. Infact, I intend to start as I mean to go on and try and have him off the lead as much as possible around the farm from day one. Jasper was always on a lead to be walked as I lived in the town back then.

We have a few securely enclosed small paddocks (well 80m x 35m for riding in). They seem a good place to safely practise recall.
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I don't think we gave our old Spaniel a bad life, even though I was somewhat ignorant to the needs of the breed when I bought him, BUT...I do know where I made mistakes in his early months/years and I will endeavour to not make them again with our new pup.

Did I mention he arrives in eight days?
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[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree, especially when owning a Border Collie as well. It's great to see her working the cows. I can't understand how some adapt to household life as ours goes nuts when in the house. She wants to be outside, rounding up stock!

As I don't really intend to go beating/flushing with our new Cocker, and I like the head on the show Cocker, I decided to go for another one. I almost, almost went for a Springer as they tend to grow less coat for muddy farm walks, but decided against it for some of the reasons you've mentioned here.

We will do lots of work with Harvey, around the farm, and I am fully adamant that he will go off the lead better than Jasper did. In fact, I intend to start as I mean to go on and try and have him off the lead as much as possible around the farm from day one. Jasper was always on a lead to be walked as I lived in the town back then.

We have a few securely enclosed small paddocks (well 80m x 35m for riding in). They seem a good place to safely practise recall.
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I don't think we gave our old Spaniel a bad life, even though I was somewhat ignorant to the needs of the breed when I bought him, BUT...I do know where I made mistakes in his early months/years and I will endeavour to not make them again with our new pup.

Did I mention he arrives in eight days?
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I thought the same when I bought my second Norwegian Buhund. Maybe I shouldn't risk spoiling your enthusiasm but there was a few things that I learned with Nessie, that I thought I would do different if I bought a new one of the same breed, only to have Humla come up with new ideas that Nessie had not prepared me for.


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Good luck with your new puppy.
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I can fully understand that.

Luckily I'm not naive enough to think two dogs will have identical temperaments simply because they are the same breed.

I just intend to attempt to train Harvey better than Jasper...that said I'm only talking about recall as Jasper was pretty much perfect, for my wants/needs, in every other way.
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I am ridiculously excited about next weekend. Stock piling the kitchen roll and dettol as I type!
 
The biggest difference between Nessie and Humla was their tempo, Nessie was born a lady and didn't often do things in a rush, Humla did everything at highest speed possible. So though both being very much Buhunds, Humla simply reacted faster, so as soon as I had prevented her from running after one rabbit, she had already found something else to maybe run after.

I truly didn't expect them to have identical temperaments but the speed in which Humla did things, did catch me off guard.







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I can imagine! Bless. I guess you're reactions were sharpened up big style, very quickly to compensate?

I keep wondering if I'll think Harvey is a little terror, in a lovable way, compared to Jasper. It is easy to forgot those younger years when you lose your dog at an elderly age. I am sure I have forgotten (or blotted out) so many of Jasper's early age antics.

Just like childbirth, I guess we have to forget so much otherwise we'd never buy a puppy again!
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Love the picture.
 
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