severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Can legally docked dogs be shown?
Docking Question
- Thread starter severnmiles
- Start date
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Sorry, can't give you a definitive answer. There are certainly plenty of docked dogs in the Dog World Crufts supplement, but they could be old enough to be pre-ban. There are some pics of dobes with tails on, have to admit they look very strange, the tail is curling over the back, I imagined it would be held like a pointer or similar, don't know why
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
I thought docking was illigal unless it was for health reasons?
If the docking was done pre ban or it was for health reason then they should be allowed to be shown, right?
I think its totally cruel to dock a dogs tail because it pleases the eye.
People say un docked dog look strange, but this is how they are supposed to look, in their natural state, its just that we are so used to seeing them docked, in their un natural state.
If the docking was done pre ban or it was for health reason then they should be allowed to be shown, right?
I think its totally cruel to dock a dogs tail because it pleases the eye.
People say un docked dog look strange, but this is how they are supposed to look, in their natural state, its just that we are so used to seeing them docked, in their un natural state.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Docking can be legally done on working dogs, e.g. spaniels which could damage their tails in cover. It is also (I think) still legal in Ireland, which is how some people get round it. I don't have a docked breed so has never been an issue for me.
ladylisa
Well-Known Member
I entered a show last year with my youngest weimaraner, on the entry from it stated that any dog docked after the ban could not enter.
jvoyce
Well-Known Member
I have never understood why anyone would want to mutilate a dog by docking their tail. It is a massive part of their means of expression. If a working dog picks up an injury then treat it - after all we wouldn't amputate a soldier's foot just in case he stood on a landmine ! Why should a dog be any different.
Probably a controversial view on this forum but I truly believe docking is cruel and unnecessary. I have a springer with a full tail who happily chases pheasants through the briars and brambles - the feathers protect the tail itself.
Probably a controversial view on this forum but I truly believe docking is cruel and unnecessary. I have a springer with a full tail who happily chases pheasants through the briars and brambles - the feathers protect the tail itself.
k9h
Well-Known Member
Show dogs can not be docked now.
Workers I think should be docked for personal safety.
Scroll down on link to see the damage an undocked tail can suffer
http://www.pondaroza.com.au/taildocking.html
I am not for cosmetic docking but am neither agaist it if it is done when they are 2-5 days old.
Workers I think should be docked for personal safety.
Scroll down on link to see the damage an undocked tail can suffer
http://www.pondaroza.com.au/taildocking.html
I am not for cosmetic docking but am neither agaist it if it is done when they are 2-5 days old.
echodomino
Well-Known Member
You can only dock a dog if it's because of an injury or you can prove it's a working dog.
You have to apply to the KC for permission to show. Dogs docked after the ban can be shown at shows where the public don't pay an entry fee to get in. So they can do most shows except Crufts.
Lliedi: One of our dogs wasn't docked as a puppy, he sustained an injury to his tail that we had treated but tails don't always recover well from damage and either don't heal or just re-occur, which is what happend to Oddi. If he'd have been docked as a puppy it would have been less traumatic for him than having to undergo aneasthetic (sp?) as a fully grown dog to have his tail amputated - which is what happend.
My first and second litters of JRs were docked, I watched the second litter being done, it's extremely quick and the pups made no fuss or signs of distress/pain. At 2 days old the tail is still cartiledge not bone. Plus the fact that all my docked dogs can show exactley the same expression as my undocked dogs.
You have to apply to the KC for permission to show. Dogs docked after the ban can be shown at shows where the public don't pay an entry fee to get in. So they can do most shows except Crufts.
Lliedi: One of our dogs wasn't docked as a puppy, he sustained an injury to his tail that we had treated but tails don't always recover well from damage and either don't heal or just re-occur, which is what happend to Oddi. If he'd have been docked as a puppy it would have been less traumatic for him than having to undergo aneasthetic (sp?) as a fully grown dog to have his tail amputated - which is what happend.
My first and second litters of JRs were docked, I watched the second litter being done, it's extremely quick and the pups made no fuss or signs of distress/pain. At 2 days old the tail is still cartiledge not bone. Plus the fact that all my docked dogs can show exactley the same expression as my undocked dogs.
joeanne
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Probably a controversial view on this forum but I truly believe docking is cruel and unnecessary. I have a springer with a full tail who happily chases pheasants through the briars and brambles - the feathers protect the tail itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lliedi i too have springers that are not docked, but both are very different, one has lots of feather one doesnt.
The puppies we just bred were not docked.....but only as they were to be sold as pets, not working dogs, had that been the case they would have been docked!
Its easy to be moralistic but i have seen pictures of the damage done to working dogs tails, and firmy believe docking to be a case of prevention being much better than constant treatment for damage.
Probably a controversial view on this forum but I truly believe docking is cruel and unnecessary. I have a springer with a full tail who happily chases pheasants through the briars and brambles - the feathers protect the tail itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lliedi i too have springers that are not docked, but both are very different, one has lots of feather one doesnt.
The puppies we just bred were not docked.....but only as they were to be sold as pets, not working dogs, had that been the case they would have been docked!
Its easy to be moralistic but i have seen pictures of the damage done to working dogs tails, and firmy believe docking to be a case of prevention being much better than constant treatment for damage.
jvoyce
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced by anecdotal evidence that docking is justified. I've personally seen more injuries in greyhound tails than any other breed - so why aren't they a working breed that may be docked ?
I don't think a small proportion of injuries in any breed justifies an across the board practice of docking.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I don't think a small proportion of injuries in any breed justifies an across the board practice of docking.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
Actually lots of feathering is what causes excess damage to the tail, it gets caught in the cover. You need some feathering for protection, but excess feathering needs to be trimmed.
The actual type of tail varies hugely too, some carry them high, some carry them low, it is just luck of the draw what you end up with
I have a Springer too, he's undocked, 9 months old.
He hasn't yet started working proper cover, but has already split his tail open, and now it re-splits on every walk. Sometimes just around the house.
Once split they don't heal properly, not on a working dog entering thick cover regularly.
I bought him as he was just what I wanted, but the fact that he wasn't docked did worry me slightly, and clearly I was right to worry. We are now looking at the fact that he may need an amputation later on, alot lengthier process than if he had been docked in the first place, and also has the risks of any Op under GA.
On a true working spaniel, ie working regularly throughout the shooting season, it is not a small proportion of injuries, it is every undocked spaniel.
Each breed has a different job, and uses their tail in a a different manner. Greyhounds run at high speeds using their tail to balance and turn, hence why they are not docked, I have also yet to see a Greyhound working cover like a Spaniel!
I am not for cosmetic docking, but as k9h says, done correctly I am not against it either.
My Parents have 6 dogs, 5 of which are docked, they have NO problem expressing themselves, or balancing.
After seeing Otto licking and chewing the end of his tail obsessively because it was split open and it hurt him, I would much rather he had been docked at 3 days old.
Sorry to ramble on
The actual type of tail varies hugely too, some carry them high, some carry them low, it is just luck of the draw what you end up with
I have a Springer too, he's undocked, 9 months old.
He hasn't yet started working proper cover, but has already split his tail open, and now it re-splits on every walk. Sometimes just around the house.
Once split they don't heal properly, not on a working dog entering thick cover regularly.
I bought him as he was just what I wanted, but the fact that he wasn't docked did worry me slightly, and clearly I was right to worry. We are now looking at the fact that he may need an amputation later on, alot lengthier process than if he had been docked in the first place, and also has the risks of any Op under GA.
On a true working spaniel, ie working regularly throughout the shooting season, it is not a small proportion of injuries, it is every undocked spaniel.
Each breed has a different job, and uses their tail in a a different manner. Greyhounds run at high speeds using their tail to balance and turn, hence why they are not docked, I have also yet to see a Greyhound working cover like a Spaniel!
I am not for cosmetic docking, but as k9h says, done correctly I am not against it either.
My Parents have 6 dogs, 5 of which are docked, they have NO problem expressing themselves, or balancing.
After seeing Otto licking and chewing the end of his tail obsessively because it was split open and it hurt him, I would much rather he had been docked at 3 days old.
Sorry to ramble on
k9h
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with you every word you say (nothing to do with your Mum linching me on another forum if I don't!)!
I am tempted to dock my old dogs tail as they amount of times she swipes things off with it or even wallops me with it!!
Joke before anyone linches me!
I am tempted to dock my old dogs tail as they amount of times she swipes things off with it or even wallops me with it!!
Joke before anyone linches me!
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
Otto's tail is a blomin' nuisance! It's a big long thick thing, perfectly designed for smashing things up!
My Mum's IWS clears coffee tables with his, and leaves big welts on the back of your legs were he has whipped it!
And before anyone asks, despite being a Spaniel IWS aren't docked as they are bred to work bogs, and not work heavy cover like Springers or Cockers. If anyone has seen the coat of an IWS you would realise they are definately not designed to work through thick cover, they'd get stuck
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
Im all for docking.... less of the blooming dog to stand on
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Docking isn't cruel, in fact it's odd that it has been banned yet hind dew claws can still be legally removed and I'd say the former was less painful for the pup.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I entered a show last year with my youngest weimaraner, on the entry from it stated that any dog docked after the ban could not enter.
[/ QUOTE ]
See that is how I understood it, however I looked at a litter of legally docked pups bred for showing homes by one very well known kennel (they have taken best of breed several times at Crufts) so, it threw me!
I entered a show last year with my youngest weimaraner, on the entry from it stated that any dog docked after the ban could not enter.
[/ QUOTE ]
See that is how I understood it, however I looked at a litter of legally docked pups bred for showing homes by one very well known kennel (they have taken best of breed several times at Crufts) so, it threw me!
jvoyce
Well-Known Member
Crikey, "pulls on tin hat and runs for cover"
k9h
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Docking isn't cruel, in fact it's odd that it has been banned yet hind dew claws can still be legally removed and I'd say the former was less painful for the pup.
[/ QUOTE ]
And front dews!
Plus they are usually done at the same time with the same amount of no fuss!
Docking isn't cruel, in fact it's odd that it has been banned yet hind dew claws can still be legally removed and I'd say the former was less painful for the pup.
[/ QUOTE ]
And front dews!
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
we were recently informed, re: docking, apparantly 85% of breeders think it causes no pain, and 0% of vet surgeons believe it causes no pain..
ironic that I think, but I didn't see the actual research so can't comment further
ironic that I think, but I didn't see the actual research so can't comment further
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
we were recently informed, re: docking, apparantly 85% of breeders think it causes no pain, and 0% of vet surgeons believe it causes no pain..
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it causes some pain, however at 3 days old it is a small cut through cartilage, rather than a full blown amputation under GA.
Having your ears pierced hurts, but I doubt the pain is comparable to have your finger amputated!
I would also say that a quick snip is less stress for the dog than having the thing split open time and time again, and being open to infections, before finding a Vet that finally agrees the time has come for removal.
we were recently informed, re: docking, apparantly 85% of breeders think it causes no pain, and 0% of vet surgeons believe it causes no pain..
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it causes some pain, however at 3 days old it is a small cut through cartilage, rather than a full blown amputation under GA.
Having your ears pierced hurts, but I doubt the pain is comparable to have your finger amputated!
I would also say that a quick snip is less stress for the dog than having the thing split open time and time again, and being open to infections, before finding a Vet that finally agrees the time has come for removal.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
having docked pigs(so one would assume similar ) I wouldn't do it
again and still believe that it causes the animal distress and pain, even worse when rubber bands(e.g lambs) are used :S
If it's split, remove it under GA, I'm sure there is some other way of protecting the tails (eg. vet wrap while working, I'm sure there's a flaw in the logic ) if necessary but I don't believe docking is necessary.
again and still believe that it causes the animal distress and pain, even worse when rubber bands(e.g lambs) are used :S
If it's split, remove it under GA, I'm sure there is some other way of protecting the tails (eg. vet wrap while working, I'm sure there's a flaw in the logic ) if necessary but I don't believe docking is necessary.
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
When our pups were docked they didn't even squeak, same couldn't be said for when the one we kept was microchipped and screamed it's head off!
Vetwrap is good in theory, and people do use it (they have to, a damaged tail can mean no dog for the season) but it gets pulled off/caught etc etc.
As I said before Otto isn't even working, in fact due to being on the long line he never goes in full cover, but he come back from every walk at the moment covered in blood from his tail, and now it is damaged it splits open from the slightest knock.
Most Vet's are reluctant to amputate, so treat the problem, and how do you tell a dog to stop wagging it's tail because it's damaging itself??
I am not trying to change anyone's opinions, I respect everyone's view, but I am just trying to point out, reasons why I beleive it IS necessary for Working Spaniels.
Vetwrap is good in theory, and people do use it (they have to, a damaged tail can mean no dog for the season) but it gets pulled off/caught etc etc.
As I said before Otto isn't even working, in fact due to being on the long line he never goes in full cover, but he come back from every walk at the moment covered in blood from his tail, and now it is damaged it splits open from the slightest knock.
Most Vet's are reluctant to amputate, so treat the problem, and how do you tell a dog to stop wagging it's tail because it's damaging itself??
I am not trying to change anyone's opinions, I respect everyone's view, but I am just trying to point out, reasons why I beleive it IS necessary for Working Spaniels.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
and of course I appreciate that, just putting forth my opinion, its good to know all the points (from my POV, I'm not overly experienced in this area
)
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
As I said before I don't have a docked breed, but years ago we used to have GSD puppies hind dew claws removed (haven't had any pups with them for about 15 years now
),
but when dew claws are removed at a couple of days old pups never seem to show any real distress, a squeak and then they are back happily with mum. I have seen a litter of JRTs docked at the same age and have to say they also appeared totally unbothered.
but when dew claws are removed at a couple of days old pups never seem to show any real distress, a squeak and then they are back happily with mum. I have seen a litter of JRTs docked at the same age and have to say they also appeared totally unbothered.
rubyred
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting thread. I knew nothing about the reasons for docking but I now understand about spaniels. how about jr, dobermans and rotties, why are they traditionally docked?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Now everybody is mentioning the snip way, what about banding, that's hardly painful or cruel.
And how many think of their lamb, pork or beef that disagree with docking. Banding tails and balls on piglets and lambs is still perfectly legal. And bull calves are castrated without any painkillers, slit, twist and crunch is all I can say!!
And how many think of their lamb, pork or beef that disagree with docking. Banding tails and balls on piglets and lambs is still perfectly legal. And bull calves are castrated without any painkillers, slit, twist and crunch is all I can say!!
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Triple, GA for dogs is a risky business! Why put an adult through the operation and aftercare when it's so un-neccessary?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
when the one we kept was microchipped and screamed it's head off!
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never had one scream when I've chipped it, pup or adult, remind me not to chip your pooches lol
when the one we kept was microchipped and screamed it's head off!
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never had one scream when I've chipped it, pup or adult, remind me not to chip your pooches lol
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Triple, GA for dogs is a risky business! Why put an adult through the operation and aftercare when it's so un-neccessary?
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly! Taking a fit active working dog mid-way through a season (most likely time for it to be severely damaged), putting it trhough the stress of surgery, wearing a collar and then asking it to rest is distressing.
My Mum's dog is 12 and semi-retired, but he would destroy the place if left at home whilst the others going out working, and trust me, they know when they are going working!
Triple, GA for dogs is a risky business! Why put an adult through the operation and aftercare when it's so un-neccessary?
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly! Taking a fit active working dog mid-way through a season (most likely time for it to be severely damaged), putting it trhough the stress of surgery, wearing a collar and then asking it to rest is distressing.
My Mum's dog is 12 and semi-retired, but he would destroy the place if left at home whilst the others going out working, and trust me, they know when they are going working!
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As I said before I don't have a docked breed, but years ago we used to have GSD puppies hind dew claws removed (haven't had any pups with them for about 15 years now
),
but when dew claws are removed at a couple of days old pups never seem to show any real distress, a squeak and then they are back happily with mum. I have seen a litter of JRTs docked at the same age and have to say they also appeared totally unbothered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Completely agree, I still get a few hind dew claws, they squeak when it's done and when the powder is put on and as soon as they're back in the box with their litter mates you don't hear a peep out of them.
As I said before I don't have a docked breed, but years ago we used to have GSD puppies hind dew claws removed (haven't had any pups with them for about 15 years now
but when dew claws are removed at a couple of days old pups never seem to show any real distress, a squeak and then they are back happily with mum. I have seen a litter of JRTs docked at the same age and have to say they also appeared totally unbothered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Completely agree, I still get a few hind dew claws, they squeak when it's done and when the powder is put on and as soon as they're back in the box with their litter mates you don't hear a peep out of them.