Docking Question

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when the one we kept was microchipped and screamed it's head off!

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I've never had one scream when I've chipped it, pup or adult, remind me not to chip your pooches lol
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Yup
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We had one that bled like crazy too! The person doing it said there are always a few that react to it.
Interestingly the ones that did react to it, were also the ones that had chips move.

Otto was a big tuffy when he was done, but then he had masses ofl oose skin!
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Seeing as this post detracted somewhat from the original question, can I take it as any dog that is docked won't be going to Crufts or the like?
 
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Now everybody is mentioning the snip way, what about banding, that's hardly painful or cruel.

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When I was 6 and my JRT had pups, we took them too a lady for docking, rather than snipping, she bit them off
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The pups screamed for ages, and it put me off ever wanting to dock a dog again
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banding imo is worse than the 'snip' having seen it with lambs
I am fully aware GA is risky, I think it is better to have the small numbers who injure their tails dealt with this way rather than making the majority suffer. And I do believe it is painful for them.
There is the arguement that it is not as sore as for lambs/pigs as they are born more dependant on the mother and possibly with a less well developed nervous system, but I'm not and have never been convinced it is necessary due to imo many other breeds being in/out of undergrowth etc and not requiring it.
ps-I'm a veggie too :P
 
Both of my spaniels were docked as puppies - am eternally grateful for that as I can only begin to imagine the carnage of a full spaniel tail
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- labs are bad enough (although I think they use them to deliberately knock food on the floor...
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)!!
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My friends ridgeback was constantly splitting her tail open - blood everywhere. Managed to get it to heal by giving her aloe vera juice in her dinner twice a day. Hasn't happened since.
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Yup
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We had one that bled like crazy too! The person doing it said there are always a few that react to it.
Interestingly the ones that did react to it, were also the ones that had chips move.

Otto was a big tuffy when he was done, but then he had masses ofl oose skin!
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The lecturer on the course said it's always the white ones that bleed like mad lol. Touch wood, I haven't experienced that!

Chips migrating are supposed to be a sign of the dog being badly chipped as it should sit between the shoulder blades, but how true that is I really don't know. Mum's JRT's is around the front of his chest, if I hadn't chipped him, I wouldn't believe he was done!!

The loose skinned are the best, I find pups easier than adults. Its amazing the difference in thickness in dogs skin. An Old English Sheep dog I chipped was like leather!!
 
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I am fully aware GA is risky, I think it is better to have the small numbers who injure their tails dealt with this way rather than making the majority suffer. And I do believe it is painful for them.

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But it is only dogs who are going to work that can be docked now (yes I know not all of them do end up working), and I would say the majority of the dogs that do work, would end up with damaged tails if not docked.
So you are not making the majority suffer by docking the workers, as those are the ones that would need GA as adults.

I'm not sure that made much sense
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I'm tired
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but I know what I mean!
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now understand about spaniels. how about jr, dobermans and rotties, why are they traditionally docked?

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yeah and why boxers? what job did they do? the one i have met with a tail does try and break you leg with it!!
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oops, maybe I didnt word it clearly enough, the pup are more dependant than the lambs/pigs.
It is better that it is just working dogs, but so many try to flout it as can be seen, and I still am not convinced re: the need.
 
not sure if anyone has said this already, havnt read all posts yet, the exact rules on docking and showing now are;
-dogs docked pre ban may be shown
-dogs LEGALLY docked (with valid vets cert) after ban may be shown at shows that do not charge for admission.
-therefore dogs at crufts for example may not be shown if docked post ban legally or otherwise.
-they may however compete at crufts in other working disciplines but not in the show ring.
 
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This is an interesting thread. I knew nothing about the reasons for docking but I now understand about spaniels. how about jr, dobermans and rotties, why are they traditionally docked?

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JRs are also traditionally docked for working purposes when working to ground, dont know if u hav ever noticed on a JR with a tail, but they generally curl over their backs, when to ground, mr fox will grab said tail and break the JR's back. they r docked firstly to avoid this and secondly to a length so as to be able to use it as a handle to draw terrier latched on to mr fox out of ground.
cant comment on dobes and rotties tho, wudnt hav a clue!
 
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There is the arguement that it is not as sore as for lambs/pigs as they are born more dependant on the mother and possibly with a less well developed nervous system, but I'm not and have never been convinced it is necessary due to imo many other breeds being in/out of undergrowth etc and not requiring it.
ps-I'm a veggie too :P

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Sorry to cause a pun, but to stop swearing "Barlambs"!

You have obviously never seen a lamb that has had it's testicles ringed. About 2 minutes later they are kicking away with their back legs & throwing themselves on the ground. I put a lambing ring once on my little finger & after 10seconds at the most had to have it cut off. The pain was intollerable. Now lambs are done at around 2-3 months, to make sure they have "dropped" & you do the tails at the same time as so only having to get them in the once, as getting 1000+ ewes & lambs in is a big pain in the arse!

I prefer docking over ringing lambs, but lambs have to be done.

My old dog hates any injection & squeals like murder did when chipped 8 yrs ago but has not moved from site yet. Q bled when chipped for an hour or so but her chip has not moved yet 2.5 yrs later & she never peeps at any jabs!
 
This thread seems to highlight that those for docking have hands on experience of working dogs and those against do not. JRT's tails should be docked to the width of man's hand so that he can pull it out of a hole. I read just the other day why Doberman and Rottwieller tails were docked but for the life of me can't remember!

Personally I would be very loathe to buy a pup that hasn't been docked, purely for the reasons that Hen highlights - a split tail is an ongoing nightmare and extremely common.
 
agreed ravenwood. I have just begrudgingly purchased a vizzy with tail as i work and show so hav to have the tail. im very dubious as to how long it will be b4 tail has to be amptuated, shes only 9 weeks at mo tho, so we will see!
 
k9h I think you may have misread my post.. I am fully of the opinion ringing and 'snipping' tails off is painful, I have not commented on necessity in sheep/pigs.
Re: testicles, no, I have not seen that, never said I had :S but I can perfectly well envisage it having seen and done the tailing on lambs days old who were not happy about it.
I'm not sure what you think I was saying? That paragraph was me suggesting that pups do not find it as sore due to being less developed at birth than lambs/piglets, as I think will make sense if the entire post is read, makes sense to me anyway...
It would be interesting to see an actual scientific study done to see, rather than just one camp saying one thing, the other saying the other regarding split tails.
 
This bit I understand.
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banding imo is worse than the 'snip' having seen it with lambs

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It is this first sentance that does not make sense.
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<font color="red">There is the arguement that it is not as sore as for lambs/pigs</font> as they are born more dependant on the mother and possibly with a less well developed nervous system, but I'm not and have never been convinced it is necessary due to imo many other breeds being in/out of undergrowth etc and not requiring it.
ps-I'm a veggie too :P

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Doh!

I just realized you mean that it is not as sore for pups as it is for lambs or pigs!!
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i'm not really sure how to word what im trying to say so i apologise now;)

Most breeds have inherent health risks. As working dogs will have been bred with, i assume, no regard for the quality of their tails as they were docked anyway, does this mean that tail wuality is another inherent risk now?

If so, are breeders trying to "breed out" this poor quality?
 
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I read just the other day why Doberman and Rottwieller tails were docked but for the life of me can't remember!


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Many years ago a friend told me that as they are guard dogs and very sleek and smooth coated - ever tried to catch a running dobie without a collar?? - that it gave burglars something to hold on to and was therefore a weak point.
 
Hmmm... how does hanging on to the tail of a guard dog out to get you help? I think it would make matters worse...
 
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I have never understood why anyone would want to mutilate a dog by docking their tail. It is a massive part of their means of expression. If a working dog picks up an injury then treat it - after all we wouldn't amputate a soldier's foot just in case he stood on a landmine ! Why should a dog be any different.

Probably a controversial view on this forum but I truly believe docking is cruel and unnecessary. I have a springer with a full tail who happily chases pheasants through the briars and brambles - the feathers protect the tail itself.
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I can see why dogs like Cockers were docked.

Mine suffered "wagtail" where he split the end of his tail hitting it on things whilst wagging. It failed to heal as he continued to wag it and re-open the wound.

It ended up infected and he had to have some of his tail amputated. It took months to heal and his health suffered (condition wise etc) whilst it was at it's worse. He also had to undergo a GA for the procedure, which in itself is risky.

When we worked him we used to try to bandage the tail up to prevent it getting snagged on brambles etc. Never worked. The bandage would "wag off" and he would still get stuck to things.

As for expression. Docked or not, dogs like Cockers always show expression. Their whole back end wags, not just their tails. Happy little souls that they are.
 
The reason, as I know them, why all sorts of dogs were began being docked ages ago, is because of the worms (as in intestinal parasites) that could kill for it's owner important dogs. Somehow, probably by that a dog had an accident an lost a part of it's tail, someone saw that if you cut a part of the tail off, you could see the ends of small white worms inside the end of the tail (actually some sort of cut off nerves). So the earliest found descriptions about how to dock dog tails, includes that someone pulls out all the visible "worms" from the stump, thereby the dog was believed to have been made worm free for the rest of it's life.

All other explanations found, such as working in low bushes, being pulled out of dens out hunting etc. are of later date than the texts found explaining the "forever free of worms"-explanation. However, they must have sooner or later realised that it wasn't the ground cause of all worms affecting dogs that was pulled out of the stumps, but then someone had probably figured out that f. ex. their hunting dogs got less damages on their docked tails and much later maybe that Dobermans looked more impressive without a wagging (karate-) tail and so the docking continued.

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