Docking

Well my springer bitch has a docked tail similar to the black and white one in COT's example. We've just had her clipped but normally she has a lovely flag on her tail.

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, I've often wondered if she remembers it hurting, you may all think I'm stupid. Not sure if I agree with it or not, but a long spangle tail wagging is VERY painful if it happens to be stood next to you lol
 
At the moment you can still dock tails in Ireland.Fewer vets do it now and its no longer thought in the vet collage over here as its considered a mutilation(along with debarking,ear cropping and declawing) and is grounds for ending up in disciplinary before the veterinary council.But the argument of preventing suffering if the breeder is going to do it themselves has been used i believe.

However in the next few months a bill is going forward making it illegal to dock puppies tails.
As far as im aware there is no grounds being made to leave a gundog exemption clause.
There was a study published by Darke? i think it was ( i think must go hunt it down when i get some spare time) that seemed to suggest that their was no breed predisposition in having injuryed tails and that docking did not make a statistical difference.
 
NOISYGIRL said:
Well my springer bitch has a docked tail similar to the black and white one in COT's example. We've just had her clipped but normally she has a lovely flag on her tail.

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, I've often wondered if she remembers it hurting, you may all think I'm stupid. Not sure if I agree with it or not, but a long spangle tail wagging is VERY painful if it happens to be stood next to you lol
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It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.
 
cptrayes said:
It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.
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You m'dear are completely barking. No offence like.
 
cptrayes said:
It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.
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I really don't mean to be unkind, but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining, in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!! Humans who are amputees, certainly, and on occasions, may have a triggered memory of when their limb existed. To suggest that blind and deaf puppies, of two days, are likely to remember the time when they had tails, makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman, and asking him if he remembers life, pre-circumcision!

Vizslak said:
You m'dear are completely barking. No offence like.
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:D:D

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
I really don't mean to be unkind, but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining, in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!! Humans who are amputees, certainly, and on occasions, may have a triggered memory of when their limb existed. To suggest that blind and deaf puppies, of two days, are likely to remember the time when they had tails, makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman, and asking him if he remembers life, pre-circumcision!

Alec.
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Phantom pain is not about remembering that you had a tail or a leg Alex. It's about a brain which is wired to receive signals from the end of a nerve receiving a signal from part way up that nerve which it cannot distinguish from originating further back down the bit which is missing.

A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.

But of course phantom pain would be too horrible to contemplate in a docked dog, wouldn't it? I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.
 
cptrayes said:
A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.
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I think you are trying too hard to anthropomorphize.

A human amputee tends to have 'remembered pain' from an extremity which no longer exists because humans can reason this out and I imagine the majority of anecdotal evidence is sourced from adults who've undergone a trauma as opposed to tiny babies who lost a limb and then discussed it later. If the nerve is no longer there, there can be no real pain.

Cptrayes, your posts are fun: keep them coming! :D
 
I just twiddled the end of my docked GWPs tail, and he looked at me like I was crackers... which of course I am, as I am checking to see whether his tail "still hurts". Oh dear!
If you read some research and case studies surrounding human phantom limb pain/sensation, you will find that in many cases it IS the memory of having the (example) foot, and the associated pain that went with the condition that caused the need for amputation. Hence why the incidence of phantom limb sensation is much lower in cases where it was emergency amputation due to an accident. Regrding long term conditions, the use of nerve blocks prior to surgery have been used with quite some success, as the brains last "memory" of the limb is that it was pain free. You also have to consider the psychological implications of human phantom limb sensation.
At 2 days old, is a puppy likely to remember having his tail? Or any sensation that went with it? Errm, nope.
 
Alec Swan said:
I really don't mean to be unkind, but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining, in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!! Humans who are amputees, certainly, and on occasions, may have a triggered memory of when their limb existed. To suggest that blind and deaf puppies, of two days, are likely to remember the time when they had tails, makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman, and asking him if he remembers life, pre-circumcision!



:D:D

Alec.
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So so funny!!:D:D:D
 
'Tail docking: the iong and the short
of it' is the title of the article, in the irish veterinary journal vol 60 no. 12.

to also clarify, it is not that the pup 'remembers' or the infant 'remembers' their pain, it is that the pain sensitises the pathways and causes increased sensation to pain later in life (or something like that!)
 
cptrayes said:
Phantom pain is not about remembering that you had a tail or a leg Alex. It's about a brain which is wired to receive signals from the end of a nerve receiving a signal from part way up that nerve which it cannot distinguish from originating further back down the bit which is missing.

A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.

But of course phantom pain would be too horrible to contemplate in a docked dog, wouldn't it? I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.
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SO..big question..do Jewish gentlemen remember pre circumcision?? Are their legs sometimes crossed? Completely barking..but just so entertaining:D
 
Yes, but there was no pain in the end of the tail that is missing? So why would there be a sensation that was never there in the first place?? The majority of phantom limb sensation in humans stems from the limb itself, not the site of amputation!
 
There is a study ongoing in scotland to settle the arguement, which will be very interesting. Comparing injury rates in docked and undocked dogs-so should beo ut in the next year or two.
 
Being serious for just a minute..my dogs hate having their tails trimmed for shows..the nearer the end the more they wriggle..in an undocked breed.
 
For example, if a person were suffering phantom limb sensation after losing their foot due to injury/disease to said foot, but the amputation site required was above ankle, then they would feel the pain/itch/pins and needles in the offending missing FOOT not on their leg where the op took place.
 
in human phantom limb pain, a common way of curing or lessening the problem is CBT and mirror training, basically to retrain the brain to imagine a healthy limb where it is imagining a painful one. This has no relation to tail docking in dogs whatsoever and is a totally invalid point cptrayes.
 
NOISYGIRL said:
..........

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, .......
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I've had many dogs which have tolerated any form of physical contact, with the exception of their tail, and that's both docked and undocked. A dog with a docked tail, who doesn't like that tail touched, would be just as likely to dislike it, with a full tail.

cptrayes said:
........ I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.
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See above....... and there is still no clear evidence that dogs which are docked, suffer any lasting ill effects. I assure you of this, if there was any evidence, then I'd be standing beside you, and I'd champion your cause.

You have to understand that many of those on here, and elsewhere too, who support the docking of certain breeds, do so because they have the welfare of the dog at heart.

Not that you have, I'll accept, but to suggest that the docking of gun dog's tails is a human vanity, is both insulting and wrong.

Alec.
 
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Henry has a full tail, but if you gently take hold of the end, he either twitches it out of your hand, or turns and nibbles your fingers gently until you let go. I think it's a ticklish spot. He'll allow me to hold it because I'm the boss and I say so, but I'd think he'd politely prefer me not to.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Having had docked Dobermanns in the past it took a long time to get used to the tails of Diesel and Darcy, but Ive gone from not liking with tails to actually seeing the benefits. Other dogs seem less aggressive towards them as they are easier to read with wagging tails and Dobermanns have always been fast and agile but to see how they use their tails to balance and turn have given them an edge imo.

I am still undecided though whether I prefer them with or without.:)
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That's a very good post, with an excellent and honest final sentence. I'm not too sure, either!!

Those dogs with legs, and in the case of yours, we're talking tall dogs, need a tail for balance. They were originally docked (so I may be wrongly informed), to prevent a human assailant having anything to grab hold of, and for the same reason they have very short coats, and mostly, very tight skin. They are also, it seems to me, to be almost bird like, in that it takes practice to translate the expression. To the uninitiated they are cold and expressionless. For me that's part of the attraction.

I actually think that both the Doberman and the Rottweiler, look better, and function better too, with long tails.

Alec.
 
Very interesting post. On the subject of puppies remembering their tails does this mean castrated male animals remember their bits? Are their hordes of dogs & horses bemoaning their missing balls? And dogs pining for their dew claws? I think not somehow.
As for tails, ime other dogs do struggle with the body language of some docked breeds in my experience.
And my undocked dobiex allows his tail to be touched but clearly dislikes it. Unlike my friends docked rottie, who prefers it as an itching spot.
 
God knows how naturally bob tailed dogs cope! :rolleyes:

I think littlelegs makes a hugely valid point about the missing appendages, yet many people advocate run of the mill neutering despite there not being a valid medical reason sometimes. I fail to see how removing the testes is fine while docking is not. Docking is unlikely to change behaviour, neutering can do so.

I'm discounting the unwanted puppies argument as I imagine the vast majority of owners are careful enough not to allow their dog to impregnate passing females.
 
[Q
I'm discounting the unwanted puppies argument as I imagine the vast majority of owners are careful enough not to allow their dog to impregnate passing females.[/QUOTE]

I hope that was tongue in cheek, when I had my first Dobe who was an entire male (he had wobblers) I could have made a fortune studding him as he was so well bred, needless to say I didnt.

One thing that has puzzled me is a castrated male human would have a very high falsetto singing voice but it dosnt seem to affect dogs, all my male castrated dogs have had very deep barks. Can anyone enlighten me please. I have my own theory but would welcome other ideas.
 
That's a very interesting thought dobie girl, & one that's never crossed my mind. From what I've heard castrating human males was for church choirs, so maybe it is just a myth it stopped their voice breaking.
My best guess is that it has a different effect on dog hormone levels but not sure how. Perhaps because a lot of male dogs are castrated at a further stage of maturity than a choir boy would be.
 
neutering does have benefits and acts as a very good preventitive if done early enough, and it what way does it change a dog? im still not joining the docking debate mind you:p
 
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