docking

E

E13

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 September 2012
Messages
1,514
Visit site
Don't shoot me! :p I know nothing about it - reading something made me remember hearing years ago, that it is bad... Working dogs may be docked, but whatever I heard was that it was cruel - so, what is the truth? I assume docking horses is still cruel :eek:
 
I've no strong feelings either way, I don't see it as any more cruel than babies being circumcised, horses having metal shoes nailed onto their feet etc, it's a very short moment of time in a very young puppy's life.
Aesthetically, I think some breeds look impressive cropped and docked, shoot me now :p
 
A tail is important for dog to dog communication. It is an integral part of a dog's body and has several bones linked by muscles and irrigated by blood and a full network of nerves. If you cut any other similar part of a mammal's body (human toes and fingers?) for your own satisfaction what would you be called? and if I was a man you would have to run b...y fast to catch me and cut any bit of my tackle! Tradition does not make any mutilation ok, it just makes us insensitive to it.

Sorry Cave Canem, I usually agree with you on other subjects!
 
planete said:
.......

....... Tradition does not make any mutilation ok, it just makes us insensitive to it.

.......!
Click to expand...

Have you seen the tails of un-docked spaniels, which either through work, or the simple flogging of walls or kennel ways, constantly bleed? Have you seen the attempts made by vets to stem the bleeding and allow the healing, and the tail is constantly, and frantically wagging? Have you seen the constant attempts at removing ever more tail, and all so often to no avail and the only eventual remedy is PTS? I've witnessed all. Never my dogs, but those of others.

I asked my vet how she justified docking my puppy's tales, and she said that it was a decision which grew on her, after having to perform major surgery on too many dogs which were adults.

Because of the constant tail action of those spaniels which work, the risk to un-docked dogs is real. It's tradition for a reason.

Alec.
 
Sorry to always drag her into these arguments, I know she loves me for it :p but Kirstyhen on here had a terrible time with her spaniel's tail splitting.

Re communication, I know lots of docked dogs (Dobes, Rotts, OES) who interact/communicate just fine with other dogs.

Other dogs often have a negative reaction to my dog, (he's black with erect ears and a huge tail) other dogs have reactions to dogs with 'eyebrows' etc etc etc.
 
I agree with CC up to a point, the Dobermann has now taken on a completely new look. Ive had people ask me what breed they are. My 2 Dobes tails look like meerkats when they are trotting along:D Ive seen some with horrendous looking tails which are nearly completely curled up. Its taken me 2 years to get used to them and now I like them:) I can see the many advantages for the dogs as other dogs can read their body language and when they are running and turning at speed their tails helps with cornering. Having said all that I dont think its cruel if done at an early age, but for working dogs it is a must.
 
Alec Swan said:
Have you seen the tails of un-docked spaniels, which either through work, or the simple flogging of walls or kennel ways, constantly bleed? Have you seen the attempts made by vets to stem the bleeding and allow the healing, and the tail is constantly, and frantically wagging? Have you seen the constant attempts at removing ever more tail, and all so often to no avail and the only eventual remedy is PTS? I've witnessed all. Never my dogs, but those of others.

I asked my vet how she justified docking my puppy's tales, and she said that it was a decision which grew on her, after having to perform major surgery on too many dogs which were adults.

Because of the constant tail action of those spaniels which work, the risk to un-docked dogs is real. It's tradition for a reason.

Alec.
Click to expand...

OK firstly seen lots and lots and lots of injuries through waggy tail, my own included (my dogs not my own lol!!) and never ever have I seen a result where a dog was pts, every single one of them was cured through an amupation..... and every single one of them went on to live happy healthy lives as a result. Secondly, the most common dogs 'waggy tail syndrome' affects are: labradors, setters, lurchers, whippets none of which traditionally have their tails docked anyway!!! yeah work that one out!!!

Now as my own dog had to have her tail amputated, you'd think i'd be in the pro dock camp. Well i'm neither. The actual percentage of any litter who would actually develop a problem with their tail is very very low. So by blanket docking ALL puppies, deprieves all of them of having a life with a tail to experience based on the risk to the minority. So no I don't necessarily agree with this. I do have a pup with a docked tail, but that was not my choice.

So honestly I cannot say whether it's 'right' or 'wrong'. one thing i would say is if done soley on aesthetic reasons, that is wrong.

And cavecanem, i'm sure baby circumcisions are done under an aneasthetic???
 
Last edited:
This is mild.

Teal is a springer trapped in a labs body(springer x lab), but his bum and tail wagging is very spanielly.

The photo isnt brilliant the end of his tail is actually quite bulbus from granulated scar tissue, I use camrosa to encourage some hair growth and this goes on every few days. It reopens monthly. He does work but his worst damage was out for a walk in the summer where he reopened it and then splattered it up the washing machine and got it infected. If it happens again my vet has agreed to take some of it off.

2A3AC033-0E74-43D9-8AA2-BEB855EA2D27-607-000000B013EBFD9A_zps12886560.jpg


and this is the door of my kitchen that I cleaned two weeks ago and this was just now. My entire downstairs looks like this. I can and do bandage it but he does wag it off or get it wet. Teal also gets blood all up this sides etc and its just not nice.

68B540EA-558D-45F7-9005-B39F7ECE272E-607-000000B1947213C7_zps392475d8.jpg



Next dog likely to be a springer and yes it will be from docked stock.
 
Last edited:
CaveCanem said:
Sorry to always drag her into these arguments, I know she loves me for it :p but Kirstyhen on here had a terrible time with her spaniel's tail splitting.

Re communication, I know lots of docked dogs (Dobes, Rotts, OES) who interact/communicate just fine with other dogs.

Other dogs often have a negative reaction to my dog, (he's black with erect ears and a huge tail) other dogs have reactions to dogs with 'eyebrows' etc etc etc.
Click to expand...


Of all the OES's I know (and own) they have all got tails. Weird some people come up and say hes weird having a tail.
 
Try using pipe foam around the tail to protect from walls etc and promote healing. This worked for my friends flatcoat. Don't forget that DEFRA count amputation of damaged tails as docking and therefore these dogs cannot compete anywhere where an entry fee is charged. This includes fun shows at county fairs etc
 
satinbaze said:
Try using pipe foam around the tail to protect from walls etc and promote healing. This worked for my friends flatcoat. Don't forget that DEFRA count amputation of damaged tails as docking and therefore these dogs cannot compete anywhere where an entry fee is charged. This includes fun shows at county fairs etc
Click to expand...

Teal will not be competing. I have used pipefoam (as in insulating foam?) and it just wouldn't stay on at all even with duck tape.

Best I find is a sock, some vet wrap and duck tape slightly onto his fur if that makes sense while its healing, but because of where we walk and them on the farm/ in and out of the house all the time, it just doesn't last long. But its healed at the moment as you can see from photo and guarantee it will re open one day soon. Its a constant battle because the blood flow is limited and the healing tissue is hard and brittle and therefore never properly heals, so my vet said
 
My breed of choice was traditional docked for working purposes and although you can get genuine bobs (Jack maternal line carries it) they for the most part have tails. Jack has not difficulty with body language etc and they are becoming more and more like cardigans. I do prefer them without and will try and get a bob tailed pup next time.

Working cockers etc.....having seen the mess they get in should 100% be docked!
 
Nicked from the other forum:
SpanielTailInjuries.jpg


tailinjury01.jpg


tailinjury03.jpg


tailinjury02.jpg


I would far rather have a docked working spaniel. Apparently no-one will laugh at us on the field, but having sent Zak into brambles for a retrieve several times recently, I'd be a lot happier if he were docked. Lethal with wine glasses, too!
 
I am for docking a working Spaniels tail. In all the year I have worked my dogs I have seen a number of nasty injuries to the tails of an undocked dog.

A working Springer or Cocker has its tail docked for a reason.

A working dog can still have its tail docked legally an you get a certificate stating so.

A working Spaniels Tail is longer than that of a Show one ( when they were allowed to be docked)
 
But its not illegal to dock working breeds is it? So therefore dock the dogs that work and will be at risk of injury but docking dogs for cosmetic purposes isn't justified. Xxx
 
my friend has a boxer,who was left undocked. One year in ,he kept smashing it into walls,breaking it etc. Now docked shorter and more painfully than it would ever have been at >week old.
 
Docking is cruel and un neccessary hence why it is banned. Where dogs are congenitally predisposed to weak tails hopefully now this will start to be apparant and bred out. It is not as major an operation as is made out to remove a tail (and if they are pts due to it then that is poor veterinary care). Animals breaking their tails on kennels-that is kennels too small. Animals get injured.
 
I didn't think docking was illegal. Whether that is a working dog or not. I understood docking by anyone other than a vet was illegal, and most vets refuse to dock pups.
 
SusieT said:
Docking is cruel and un neccessary hence why it is banned. Where dogs are congenitally predisposed to weak tails hopefully now this will start to be apparant and bred out. It is not as major an operation as is made out to remove a tail (and if they are pts due to it then that is poor veterinary care). Animals breaking their tails on kennels-that is kennels too small. Animals get injured.
Click to expand...

It is not banned on whole as there are exceptions and the pictures shown by myself and CT clearly show that it is not unnecessary as they are the consequences of an undocked tail with some dogs.

http://www.cdb.org/awa/index.htm
 
Im sure to dock tails the litter must be working dogs ie spaniels and jack russels etc and the person who bred the litter must hold a shotgun license and also take them to a proper vet who can carry out this surgery and it needs to be done before they are 7 days old...

I think but not 100% certain...
 
I have Springer's, all of whom are docked, it is still legal for Vets to dock working dogs.

I also have a Cane Corso and a Rottweiler, both of whom are docked short.

I believe that as long as a Vet does the procedure at the recommended 3 days old I certainly do not have a problem with it.
 
I agree with those who have said that it is often more humane to have a dog docked if it is working - those pictures need no words. I think that some breeds do look nicer docked - my GSP's have tails & i personally think they'd look much better docked, but i'd never ever ever consider having them docked purely for cosmetic reasons.
 
I had a litter of JRs years ago, and they were docked at 3 days old by an experienced terrier man. I was dreading it but they literally squeaked once and were back with mum feeding, I have seen pups get more stressed being wormed!
SusieT, you say it is not a major operation to remove a tail, but those I know of who have had it done have generally had problems with the tail healing. One of my GSDs had a lump removed from her tail and it was a real problem to get the wound to heal, every time she wagged her tail it opened it up, it was stitched, and then stapled, and in the end we just had to leave it and I applied manuka honey and it healed eventually, too forever though.
I definitely think working springers etc should be docked, I am gradually getting used to breeds like rotties and dobes with tails, but it has taken a while.
 
Ok, I was wrong about working spaniels if these injuries are common when their tails are left undocked (I have never had one). I still do not like it when it is just done for cosmetic purposes.
 
I do not agree it is is cruel or unneccessary.
We have 3 dogs, all docked GWP/KG. We had our own litter docked as several of the pups went to working homes, the pups squealed more about their dew claws than they did about their tails. Is removal of dew claws cruel too?
I researched docking carefully at the time and found much evidence as shown above, long tails seldom mend once damaged and amputation at a mature age is much more traumatic. Pups who never had long tails don't miss their tails.
 
There has actually been a study done, and results concluded that docking does not affect dog dog communication. I cant remember where I spotted it though!
 
planete said:
Ok, I was wrong about working spaniels if these injuries are common when their tails are left undocked (I have never had one). I still do not like it when it is just done for cosmetic purposes.
Click to expand...

An honest acceptance that there may be times when the practice may, or will save future suffering. Well done.

As a possible matter of interest, spaniels specifically, express themselves through their rudders! That may sound daft to you, but the active and balanced spaniel, which is working, has an action which a full tail movement would restrict.

Tail Docking and Ear Cropping, can, in other instances be considered to be needless, and so could be thought of as simply for aesthetics, or even worse, as traditional. I accept that too.

It should be remembered that a new born puppy, is actually only partially formed. They have partially formed eyes, there ligaments and bones are soft and are mostly of a substance more like gristle than bone or sinew, and even though some may consider the practice to be one of vanity, as the suffering doesn't appear to be any more than when the bitch picks up her pups, and she grips their scruffs with her teeth, so they shriek, then my honest opinion is that the degree of suffering is minimal.

I'll finish by saying that I'm not a barbarian, that I care about all my dogs, and that I would NEVER condone needless cruelty.

Alec.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top