Dodgy working conditions on a professional yard

Avocadosalad said:
She agreed to a very low wage! She is young, and this is her first job. This is one of her equestrian heros. But I have found out that you cannot waive your legal rights. Doesn't matter - you could work for the Queen, and you still have rights to minimum wage rates.
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There is a chance that she or you might not think she is an apprentice, but she might be treated as one - especially if under 19. If she really wants to stick it out then she needs to get the deal on paper, or if she is happy as she is and is happy for payment in experience and 'prestige' then leave her to it. The horse industry can be appallingly paid unfortunately, so you do it for the love of horses.
 
DonkeyClub said:
If she is getting 3 lessons a week at say , £40 or £50 a lesson ( which is a cheap rate for a pro rider) then that's probably why they think they can pay her so little.
But it's definately not legal in any way. :-(
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Thank you for your reply. It is much appreciated. If anyone can give me experiences with dealing with ACAS in equestrian disputes, I would be very grateful.
 
Thank you to everyone who has replied to this post. I think I need to be more specific, so will post again. Please continue to share your thoughts with me, if you have anything to add. Many thanks
 
Did she sign a contract, and is she happy with how things are?

My sister is a WP atm, and she's working mad hours and me and my mum keep doing the "is this healthy?" chat, but she's happy and inspired and I've never heard her so upbeat and excited and she's learning so much that she couldn't care about anything else. She has worked mad hours for the past 2 years pretty much to be able to now afford what she's doing though, and went in eyes wide open knowing that...
 
Can I ask why you keep referring to ACAS? I would suggest that you talk to ACAS directly as they are very helpful (have used them for getting payment from an employer I had left). I think there are lots of grey areas you need to define before your will get more specific advice. I would also advise your daughter to look at joining the British Grooms Association who will be able to give industry relevant advice.
 
Heya, as most others have said here it's a fairly common situation in the horse world, especially in 'Working Pupil' situations.
I'm currently a working student on an English-run yard in Portugal and get what I think is a seriously good deal for a WP. We're given comfortable accommodation, a car to run around in, work a steady 8-hour day 5.5 days a week, 50 euros for groceries and ride usually 2-4 times daily. All schooling is under the supervision of the resident rider/trainer, and as such we're constantly getting advice alongside 2 or 3 more formal lessons weekly.
Having been a WP at a couple of places, I can safely say that the working days here feel incredibly easy in comparison to what I'm used to (an average of 10 hours, 6 days a week), and as the learning opportunities are most definitely worth it and I enjoy a) the work and b) my colleagues' company, I would (and do when needed) happily work longer hours.
One place I went to offered falling-apart mobile homes as accommodation, no pay/meals, and no training or riding beyond hacking whatsoever. Suffice to say that I didn't stay long. So yes, there are plenty of people who will take advantage in the Equestrian world, however... if the people are good, and the experience is worth it, then in some situations the pay has to take more of a back seat. It's just a matter of being savvy enough to get out when a boss is taking the p. ;)
Hope that might help to put things into perspective?
 
I don't think 'yeah but that's just the industry' is good enough IMO. People should not be exploited just because it's horses. If it was my daughter I would be chatting to a solicitor specialising in employment law and human resources.
WP's should not be treated like slave labour. If employers are taken to court because of it maybe they will start renumerating their staff properly.
Good luck OP, I hope you can get a better deal for your daughter.
 
Firewell said:
I don't think 'yeah but that's just the industry' is good enough IMO. People should not be exploited just because it's horses. If it was my daughter I would be chatting to a solicitor specialising in employment law and human resources.
WP's should not be treated like slave labour. If employers are taken to court because of it maybe they will start renumerating their staff properly.
Good luck OP, I hope you can get a better deal for your daughter.
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If she puts on her c.v........... took my last employer to court............!!!
 
I don't understand why you keep referring to ACAS and not actually contacting them? THEY ARE A FREE SERVICE IF THEY DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER THEY WILL FIND OUT AND PHONE YOU BACK

However, this is pretty normal in the equestrian industry and a majority of places pay very poorly but you do it for the experiences not the pay. If she is unhappy with the pay then I suggest she looks elsewhere as its unlikely ACAS will be able to help in terms of getting her a payrise
 
Firewell said:
I don't think 'yeah but that's just the industry' is good enough IMO. People should not be exploited just because it's horses. If it was my daughter I would be chatting to a solicitor specialising in employment law and human resources.
WP's should not be treated like slave labour. If employers are taken to court because of it maybe they will start renumerating their staff properly.
Good luck OP, I hope you can get a better deal for your daughter.
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I agree with this to an extent. I think this is the case in a lot of sectors, and if people continue to put up with it, it will continue to happen.

However, I also think it is very easy for people to say she should walk away from their own positions of financial security and secure careers. A lot of young people do essentially work for free, or work for very little money to gain experience, in the hope it will translate to better pay and a better job down the line (not just in horses). I am not saying that this is right at all, but there is a culture of low paid/unpaid work developing in under-25s and if OP's daughter leaves, it is very likely they will find someone else who will work for the same conditions.

However, if the daughter is unhappy, she should leave and look for something else better paid as well as taking advice from the various organisations mentioned on this thread. I do think that has to be her decision and not something her mother decides for her.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate your help. I am just trying to gather some information to help with my next steps, ad phone calls tomorrow. I have learnt some useful things tonight, thank you.
 
Have you raised the subject with her employers ,as if you havent ACAS or anybody for that matter wont help. You need to face them up but be aware there may be consequences you dont want.
 
There are one or two points here that I don't really follow. 1. Presumably the issue of pay, conditions and working hours/breaks/time off were discussed before your daughter agreed to start work. If it was felt unreasonable enough to want to go to ACAS then why go there? 2. Are you sure that the amount paid is considered remuneration for work or could it be help towards keep? This can make a difference in how it is viewed. 3. Why didn't she get a contract? You don't say how old your daughter is but either she is old enough to ask for a contract or you will have helped her and discussed what she should do. If it hasn't been forthcoming then ask again. 4. You or she should discuss it with them before you go running to ACAS. Nobody likes seeing people exploited but equally there may be a perfectly good explanation even if that is unpalatable to you. This would be the correct way to deal with the situation.
 
This is actually a good deal that your daughter is getting compared to a lot! Yes there are some jobs with horses that pay well (minimum wage!) but they are few and far between. Your daughter would be better leaving and finding another job, I can't imagine the atmosphere on the yard would be nice for her if she is taking them to court etc. and unfortunately there will always be another person willing to do the job.
 
Avocadosalad said:
Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate your help. I am just trying to gather some information to help with my next steps, ad phone calls tomorrow. I have learnt some useful things tonight, thank you.
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I keep asking this, but does your daughter mind? Or do you mind footing the bill... If it's the former, she needs to sit down and work out what she wants and if it's the latter you need to sit down with her and work out how she's going to make it work.

I mean, if she's living onsite, that's at least £300/ month on rent she's not paying, then lessons on not her horse three times a week would be another £400/ month she's not paying...
 
It is well worth speaking to ACAS. They can advise and support in the early stages without any action being taken. They can also mediate if matters can't be resolved by the employee.

Often with small businesses they are ignorant of the law and a nudge in the right direction can be all that is required.

I do know two people who have used ACAS for disputes in the equestrian industry, including one who was being underpaid. She found them very helpful.

It isn't right for people to shrug their shoulders and say oh well that's working with horses for you. The industry needs to pay employees a legal wage and this won't change if this attitude continues. Bare in mind that even if the employee doesn't complain the DWP will if it becomes apparent from a claim for tax credits or income support that she is is being underpaid. Happened to one of the people I mentioned above. She also speaks highly of the support available from the British grooms association.
 
Friend did working pupil job, similar hours and responsibilities. No lessons or anything, she was basically just a groom. £80 a month :O
 
I went and worked for 3 months as "industrial placement" for my college course- was paid nothing! I did get free onsite living, and the name on CV meant I could go and work anywhere I wanted afterwards.

In the end tho, horses as hobby as def doesn't pay my bills!
 
Pigeon said:
Friend did working pupil job, similar hours and responsibilities. No lessons or anything, she was basically just a groom. £80 a month :O
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Eesh I got paid more than that abroad 3-5 lessons a week plus loads of riding, meals on weekends and flat, treated like part of the family for £250 a month. Just because people can get away with paying WP less doesn't means it's right.
 
Geek said:
This is actually a good deal that your daughter is getting compared to a lot! Yes there are some jobs with horses that pay well (minimum wage!) but they are few and far between. Your daughter would be better leaving and finding another job, I can't imagine the atmosphere on the yard would be nice for her if she is taking them to court etc. and unfortunately there will always be another person willing to do the job.
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My grooms are certainly not paid the minimum wage.
Niether of my grooms would work for that .
 
Kat said:
It isn't right for people to shrug their shoulders and say oh well that's working with horses for you. The industry needs to pay employees a legal wage and this won't change if this attitude continues. Bare in mind that even if the employee doesn't complain the DWP will if it becomes apparent from a claim for tax credits or income support that she is is being underpaid.
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Totally agree, if these people can't or won't pay a reasonable wage they should bally well do muck out their own stables!
 
Kat said:
It isn't right for people to shrug their shoulders and say oh well that's working with horses for you. The industry needs to pay employees a legal wage and this won't change if this attitude continues.
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Completely agree!

In my experience as well, the employers that pay the best are the nicest and fairest employers - probably because they value their employees!
 
Jo_x said:
Completely agree!

In my experience as well, the employers that pay the best are the nicest and fairest employers - probably they value their employees!
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True. Or, if they can't afford to pay top wages they make sure their people get instruction and opportunities.

It would be interesting to work out what most pros make an hour though, and how many can make a working wage without being subsidised.
 
Have just been reading through this thread - HAVE I MISSED WHAT EXACTLY IS THE OVERALL GROSS WAGE PER WEEK (OR MONTH?)

I can see 'she gets this/that' etc but nowhere has the OP said what the daughter is actually earning gross.
Only then can breakdowns be given for (possible) deductions of valuations (eg, lessons, accom etc) thus leaving nett sum.
The GROSS salary would be what she is valued at per hour, before ANY deductions might be taken.

OP - do you know? What do the payslips tell you? Or any original offer?
 
nothing much has changed since I walked away from working with horses as a teenager 30 years ago.
Worst job was working for a lady looking after her daughters show ponies....can t remember much about it, only that evan 30 years ago £20 a week free accommodation in a scabby old caravan and trying to cover up mothers alcoholism. I ditched the idea of being a slave and decided to wait till I could afford my own horse.
Really the worst thing about it is that some of these folk pay their grooms the equivalent of what they would consider cheap for a round of drinks at the hunt ball.
 
ACAS are not acutally able to help out too much in the horse industry as I found out when I had to follow a grievance procedure at one place I worked in. Since we don't have a proper union to back up the workers, it is slightly better now for TB Stud Staff since Racing Welfare have started to help out stud staff as well as racing staff.
 
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