Dodgy working conditions on a professional yard

I have just logged back in and am utterly amazed at the response to my post. Thank you for all your replies. Thanks also for the private messages. I see there are over 5000 forum views. All this tells me that this is a very emotive subject, and although I have inexperience in the equestrian world, there are plenty of you who have similar worries/concerns as me. Today I feel less worried that my paternal skills have been so inadequate, and I have let my daughter down so badly.
I had a very helpful chat to ACAS, and others. I am going to follow strict advice, and will post on here again in due course to let you know my findings.
It seems that professionals need to wake up and join the vast majority of society, pay NMW, pay National insurance and Tax contributions. Especially those that enjoy a privileged lifestyle, and spend their life competing on horses - thanks to the 'subsidy' offered to them by their 'staff' , who are not paid NMW, or NI. Added those Pro riders who accept Lottery funding ( paid by me and maybe you) and yet avoid their own statutory obligations.
 
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Avocadosalad said:
I have just logged back in and am utterly amazed at the response to my post. Thank you for all your replies. Thanks also for the private messages. I see there are over 5000 forum views. All this tells me that this is a very emotive subject, and although I have inexperience in the equestrian world, there are plenty of you who have similar worries/concerns as me. Today I feel less worried that my paternal skills have been so inadequate, and I have let my daughter down so badly.
I had a very helpful chat to ACAS, and others. I am going to follow strict advice, and will post on here again in due course to let you know my findings.
It seems that professionals need to wake up and join the vast majority of society, pay NMW, pay National insurance and Tax contributions. Especially those that enjoy a privileged lifestyle, and spend their life competing on horses - thanks to the 'subsidy' offered to them by their 'staff' , who are not paid NMW, or NI. Added those Pro riders who accept Lottery funding ( paid by me and maybe you) and yet avoid their own statutory obligations.
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What does your daughter have to say about this, though? If she is working at a prestigious yard and getting lessons she may not want to lose that and not mind the low pay. Yes, it is not ideal, but there are young people working entirely for free in a lot of industries atm as interns, too.

I am not saying it is right at she is underpaid, but it has to be her decision, not yours.

Equally, she would probably not be much better off if she was paid national minimum wage but having to pay out the costs of rent and commuting, especially if she was working a split shift and having to go up twice a day or having to drive a long distance. Yes, some grooms can make more money, but they often have experience and/or professional qualifications. If she is with a "name" it may be worth taking poor working conditions now so she has more options later on.

I am not saying that what the yard is doing is right- it sounds a completely dodgy setup, and I think she would be best getting out of there. However, I do think it has to be her decision to involve a body like ACAS, not yours. Has she asked you to do any of this?

What is her ultimate career goal? What is her plan B if she loses her current position?
 
Really, the only thing that is wrong is that the employers have not put it down in writing exactly what is "the deal" and what they expect from your daughter, and what deductions they are making. I suppose this is called a Contract! They are extremely foolish not to have something in writing.

Working for a well known "pro" yard can certainly be fantastic experience, and really useful when looking to move on to another job.
 
I've had event horses on professional yards and the grooms seem to work extremely long hours for little money. They worked 6 days a week and on event days would sometimes be up at 2 or3 am to get a lorry full of horses ready for a 4am start. They then often didn't get back to the yard until late evening and would have to put the horses to bed. In the event season they would be eventing 3 times a week. If you added up their hours per weekly I'm sure it would be below the minimum hourly rate
 
I do think that the op seriously needs to consider her position in all of this. People do not work in this industry for the money ,and also one cant put a price on the knowlege one gains. OP ,if your daughter is old enough to work ,she is also old enough to make her own mistakes and live and learn from them .The horse world is a long hours ,low pay world . Rather like farming. IT IS ALSO,a close knit world ,where word gets around fast , so before you leap in to adjust the horse world to fit your expectations.Remember that this is your daughters chosen profession and she has to live with the consequences.There comes a point where you just have to stand back ,and let your ducklings sink or swim.
 
This is very much a two edged sword and personally from experience I dont think your daughter will thank you for this intervention in her life.You seem to have a total misunderstanding of how this industry works! I suspect she has not chosen a career that suits you!
I am afraid it is a fact of life that a lot of young people nowadays have to start their working lives in unpaid internships and at least your daughter gets her keep etc plus a small amount. Some in other industries get zilch and still have to keep themselves.
Professional yards rely on owners etc to pay the bills ,The weekly livery paid by owners has a tipping point where people say they cant afford it anymore! Hence no job anymore fullstop. There is not exactly a shortage of people willing to take the oportunity she has so it becomes supply and demand and your intervention will put her job and career at jeopardy.
It might be 'A worry and concern' however she has a job (a lot havent) there are worst things she could be doing,nobody works in the horseworld to make their fortune!!!
 
christine48 said:
I've had event horses on professional yards and the grooms seem to work extremely long hours for little money. They worked 6 days a week and on event days would sometimes be up at 2 or3 am to get a lorry full of horses ready for a 4am start. They then often didn't get back to the yard until late evening and would have to put the horses to bed. In the event season they would be eventing 3 times a week. If you added up their hours per weekly I'm sure it would be below the minimum hourly rate
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How much more would you have paid a week to increase their income????? I know several pro yards where the grooms earn more than the Pro/owner
 
As a parent of a teenager who works with horses, I'd say the key thing to focus on is the training / experience. It isn't as if the average teenager could earn much in any other job, so the opportunity cost of them taking even an unpaid internship with horses is low. As long as they are getting a combination of training / experience / £ that they feel is a good deal, then I don't see that there is an issue.

I don't see a problem with a pro putting together a package that involves training unless the training doesn't happen. I also don't see an issue of short term unpaid internships in exchange for training. What I do think is wrong is to take on 'working students' or 'apprentices', expect them to do a groom's job & not give them any training or opportunities to develop.
 
MadBlackLab said:
Its not an event yard but I know a pro who charges £250 per week
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Could you break down their costs please. Rent/mortgage, maintenance, feed, utilities, running a lorry, insurance, staff costs, equipment, professional fees. . . I doubt even at that price there are pots of money sitting around and, as popdosh says, most markets won't bear that much anyway.

I teach someone who left uni and managed to find a full time 'real' job in her field. She was expected to do 3 months as an intern, then was thrilled to be offered a contract at the bare minimum. She often works late and she is lucky to have supportive parents who help her out financially and practically.

When I left school I wanted to get into advertising. I could not believe it when I started to interview and got a look at the real starting wages! With travel, clothing etc I would have made less than I was riding and teaching around my studies!

Mike and popdosh said all I would add, I think. If a living wage is important to your daughter she should probably reassess her options not because all horsey employers are scum but because the margins are so small.

if she is working with lousy people, not getting the training and being treated horribly, my advice would be move on. If she's competent and a good worker she will land somewhere better
 
lme said:
As a parent of a teenager who works with horses, I'd say the key thing to focus on is the training / experience. It isn't as if the average teenager could earn much in any other job, so the opportunity cost of them taking even an unpaid internship with horses is low. As long as they are getting a combination of training / experience / £ that they feel is a good deal, then I don't see that there is an issue.

I don't see a problem with a pro putting together a package that involves training unless the training doesn't happen. I also don't see an issue of short term unpaid internships in exchange for training. What I do think is wrong is to take on 'working students' or 'apprentices', expect them to do a groom's job & not give them any training or opportunities to develop.
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Totally agree, in many other spheres teenagers attend college/uni etc and pay for their training. In this case (assuming she is being trained, it's stated she gets 3 lessons a week) she is getting some money, accommadation and being trained for a job.

As a parallel, my daughter is a 4th year med student, she is on placement atm in hospital, she clerks in patients, takes bloods, canulas, and generally makes herself useful whilst being tarined, but also is doing a job. She doesn't expect to get a doctors/nurses wage for the hours she effectively works. She is paying for the privilege of being there and furthering her experience.

Exploitation is wrong, learning and training on the job usually comes at a cost!
 
TarrSteps said:
Could you break down their costs please. Rent/mortgage, maintenance, feed, utilities, running a lorry, insurance, staff costs, equipment, professional fees. . . I doubt even at that price there are pots of money sitting around and, as popdosh says, most markets won't bear that much anyway.

I teach someone who left uni and managed to find a full time 'real' job in her field. She was expected to do 3 months as an intern, then was thrilled to be offered a contract at the bare minimum. She often works late and she is lucky to have supportive parents who help her out financially and practically.

When I left school I wanted to get into advertising. I could not believe it when I started to interview and got a look at the real starting wages! With travel, clothing etc I would have made less than I was riding and teaching around my studies!

Mike and popdosh said all I would add, I think. If a living wage is important to your daughter she should probably reassess her options not because all horsey employers are scum but because the margins are so small.

if she is working with lousy people, not getting the training and being treated horribly, my advice would be move on. If she's competent and a good worker she will land somewhere better
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I'm not sure of break down but not a lot money left and staff pay is watched very closely and if it means less staff on yard then that's what happens
 
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