Does a horse have a conscience?

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funkytown

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I would be interested in views on whether horses have a conscience, and if so, whether mares and geldings or stallions differ. Personally, I think that horses do have a conscience, this is based on:
- my own observation and anecdotal evidence that horses and RDA horses in particular "look after" us
- observation of my own horse after the first (and last!) time he bucked me off, where he genuinely seemed "sorry" for what he'd done - having been messing around like an idiot getting very excited about jumping, after he had bucked me off he went completely quiet as if he had put himself on the naughty step! I had owned him all his life and he had never been put on the naughty step and indeed hardly ever told off by me, he was generally very sweet and kind just got over excited in that day about jumping, he used to love it.

I would be keen in particular to hear from anyone involved in RDA or riding schools, and to hear any different views on mares cf stallions and geldings.

Many thanks in anticipation of your help!
 
I don't think they have a conscience. I agree that some horses do clearly act differently around small children, less experienced riders etc... but I don't think its conscience.
 
ihatework said:
I do believe horses have a conscience, some more so than others!
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Me too ,they are cleverer than many people give them credit for .
I have fallen on badly hurt my finger I was doing the horse last night and struggling one of mine came up to me and sniffed my hand then muzzled me I really think he thought she got a bad hand .
Fatty likes a buck for fun and last year it went wrong and MrGS fell off Fatty looked horrified .
 
ihatework said:
I do believe horses have a conscience, some more so than others!
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Me too, some seem to have a desire to get it right and know when they have been less than helpful, ridden, on the ground and in many different situations, others go through life seeming to be oblivious to all that goes on around them, just like some people, I am not sure it is a conscience in the way we have but certainly some have a deeper understanding than others.

My NF pony accidentally trod on my young collie pup one day, she squealed in shock and wriggled away on 3 legs, he turned round and nuzzled her with real concern on his face, she was unhurt, they became firm friends and spent some time most days together with the pony grooming the pup, he has a real sense of right and wrong and will often jump out of his field only to pop back in when he hears my voice so while he doesn't have enough of a conscience to stop jumping out to get to better grass he does know he is in the wrong.
 
Horses are herd animals. They survive because they understand and respect the dynamics of the herd. Because they co-operate. Horses (mostly) like to co-operate with each other. They understand on a very basic level what is "good" and what is not. Through exposure, training and to an extent conditioning they also co-operate with us as herd leaders.

Does this amount to a human idea of a conscience? I don't know. I'm not sure they have a sense of right and wrong in the moral way humans might. But they absolutely do know when that co-operation is disrupted or changed in some way. And I do think they display what we might term remorse - for what of a better word for it. They don't (usually) mean to disrupt that harmony and when that happens they will look for a way to repair it.

I'm wary of imputing human ideas and values on to an animal. But I also don't think we have human words for the complex dynamic interrelationship of a prey species. "Conscience" seems as good a word as any!
 
I came off of my favourite mare once in all the years I had her. She went on a few strides, then realising I wasn't with her, turned around called for me, trotted over and nudged me on the ground (where I was curled up in a fit of giggles over the silliness of the fall), whickering and wuffling.

Her behaviour struck me as worry or concern - not guilt over doing something wrong (she hadn't!). I don't know whether it is conscience as such which drives behaviour we might perceive as guilt but the majority of horses I've known do seem to want to do right by their human companion, particularly in a close one horse/ one owner relationship. I don't think I've ever seen guilty behaviour in a horse but I have seen consternation or concern when something has happened as it usually doesn't or isn't meant to.

There's no denying that some horses are just sweet through and through. They care. Does that imply conscience, morals or just plain good nature? I think (as with elephants) there are aspects of horse nature which might be beyond our current level of understanding. I think they see things we don't, hear things we don't and it's widely accepted that they feel things we don't. It's quite possible that they know and understand things we don't too (or are reluctant to apply to them). People oppose anthropomorphising but I often wonder what animals think of us!
 
In my teens I was involved with a young show pony who was impossible to catch. Even in the stable it took time to make initial contact. Once contact was established, she then accepted grooming, tacking up, riding etc. without further fuss. One day when hacking out she got spooked and bolted which resulted in an accident (that I have no memory of) and I ended up in hospital for several weeks. On my return the pony, who had been turned out in my absence, walked straight up to me in the field and placed her muzzle into my cupped hands. I have no idea what brought about this change in her behaviour, but in my youthful naivety, I liked to believe that she was apologising for her behaviour and for hurting me. Yes I do know this is ludicrous, but I still wonder what brought about the change in attitude. Any ideas?
 
Shay said:
Horses are herd animals. They survive because they understand and respect the dynamics of the herd. Because they co-operate. Horses (mostly) like to co-operate with each other. They understand on a very basic level what is "good" and what is not. Through exposure, training and to an extent conditioning they also co-operate with us as herd leaders.

Does this amount to a human idea of a conscience? I don't know. I'm not sure they have a sense of right and wrong in the moral way humans might. But they absolutely do know when that co-operation is disrupted or changed in some way. And I do think they display what we might term remorse - for what of a better word for it. They don't (usually) mean to disrupt that harmony and when that happens they will look for a way to repair it.

I'm wary of imputing human ideas and values on to an animal. But I also don't think we have human words for the complex dynamic interrelationship of a prey species. "Conscience" seems as good a word as any!
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this :)

i think its a personality thing not a sex thing too, we have had mares geldings and 1 stallion who simply could not be trusted and would hurt you and then come back for more.................and mares geldings and 1 stallion who are the kindest,most loving bunch who would have walked through fire for us.....
 
I have seen instances of horses displaying that they clearly know right from wrong. The one that stands out is a mare and her yearling filly. The filly was quite naughty and would jump out of the field ( a good little jumper). One day when I brought her back in the dam gave her what I can only describe as 'a lecture'. All her body language was very disapproving, she shook her head at her and was clearly irritated. It reminded me of a mother, on the brink of losing her patience, reprimanding a small child. Even watching from a distance you know what's going on, well this was the very same. The filly didn't take much notice and continued to jump out of fields - she was a real rascal.
 
not sure I would describe it as conscience but I have a gelding who literally turned into a reformed character after I had a major op and a few months after started riding him again! - he went from napping when hacking alone (rearing the lot), difficult to load, quirky as hell to an absolute SAINT! he is somewhere in the middle now, but in those first few months while I was recovering that horse definitely KNEW mum wasn't right and to look after me.

He is still hacking solo and being a lovely boy in general with just a hint of the naughty monster he was to keep me on my toes.

There is no way when I was recovering I could have picked a fight with him and his napping, and who knows why or how but he just didn't nap once!
 
I doubt that they have a conscience in the way that we think of it.....

However horses are very astute at reading body language and react to our reaction, a lot of horses are very kind and tolerant and what we see as contrition is their natural state after an uncharacteristic blip!...
 
I agree with Shay and the poster above. I don't think it's conscience. I think they understand when a behaviour has lead to a less than pleasant outcome and that disrupts them.
 
Well if mine has a conscience, he keeps it under wraps. Why else would he roll in thick mud the minute I turn him out, he doesnt even wait until I turn my back :)
 
Hmmmm i think i think they do. My little mare is not very cuddly or warm, shes more of a "leave me alone" type but one time i was grooming her and she was being an arse as usual and she actually knocked me off my stool and i kind of sat there stunned and she sort of shuffled up to me and put her nose into my neck and gave me a few licks and just stood there. I honestly believe she knew what she had done and she was sorry for it.

Horses interact with eachother the same, its all about being accepted and have someone on your side. When they do something wrong, they will try to make it up by giving good behaviours.
 
Shay said:
Horses are herd animals. They survive because they understand and respect the dynamics of the herd. Because they co-operate. Horses (mostly) like to co-operate with each other. They understand on a very basic level what is "good" and what is not. Through exposure, training and to an extent conditioning they also co-operate with us as herd leaders.

Does this amount to a human idea of a conscience? I don't know. I'm not sure they have a sense of right and wrong in the moral way humans might. But they absolutely do know when that co-operation is disrupted or changed in some way. And I do think they display what we might term remorse - for what of a better word for it. They don't (usually) mean to disrupt that harmony and when that happens they will look for a way to repair it.

I'm wary of imputing human ideas and values on to an animal. But I also don't think we have human words for the complex dynamic interrelationship of a prey species. "Conscience" seems as good a word as any!
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Is that not, too, what human consciousness is? Ferrel children do not adhere to the same rules and won't necessarily feel bad for hurting someone because they have not been taught its bad. Same with people with developmental issues. Its not a "human" trait, its a conditioning thing
 
Shay said:
Horses are herd animals. They survive because they understand and respect the dynamics of the herd. Because they co-operate. Horses (mostly) like to co-operate with each other. They understand on a very basic level what is "good" and what is not. Through exposure, training and to an extent conditioning they also co-operate with us as herd leaders.

Does this amount to a human idea of a conscience? I don't know. I'm not sure they have a sense of right and wrong in the moral way humans might. But they absolutely do know when that co-operation is disrupted or changed in some way. And I do think they display what we might term remorse - for what of a better word for it. They don't (usually) mean to disrupt that harmony and when that happens they will look for a way to repair it.

I'm wary of imputing human ideas and values on to an animal. But I also don't think we have human words for the complex dynamic interrelationship of a prey species. "Conscience" seems as good a word as any!
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This. All 'group' animals must have some of these types of qualities, you see it in dogs trying to appease or looking guilty after they've done something, it's necessary to function in a collective with a hierarchy. You have to be careful not to anthropomorphise though, they lack a conscience in the true meaning of the word because it's an abstract concept that needs a very complex set of processes like self awareness, empathy, cause and consequence etc that horses to have in the same way humans do. I think horses are very easily conditioned to respond in a set behaviour, they've been breed to be sensitive to us and pliable for generations. They are very intuitive too. I think what is often seen as 'looking after' someone is just an example of that and it that doesn't make it any less significant. All of our human traits of empathy, compassion, conscience can be argued as being a biologically driven to maintain a group dynamic and ensure our survival, it's just we extrapolate it to a much larger group than other animals but we are often a bit **** at it because we are basically shellfish and still tribal hence why we can suppress all of that and have wars and sweat shops and all the awful things that go on.
 
Yep, sure they do, in the basic herd animal instinct sense of the word.
It depends how you define 'conscience', but if you look at it as the willingness and ability to learn rules and behaviours without there being any specific positive or negative reinforcement....then yes, horses, just like dogs and humans will learn and do things simply because it is expected of them by the society in which they live.

A horse's empathetic senses are also very well developed (more so than humans I believe)
 
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I have one mare whom I am confident has something. Whether I would go as far as to qualify it precisely as a conscience. She is empathetic and a truly kind soul. Her personality when I am happy is instantly different; her behaviour when I mucked out and groomed on the morning of my wedding was so far removed from that of the day my mother died, despite the two days being in the same weekend.

She crushed my hand once and was horrified, and she decked me once as a youngster out hacking alone. She waited for me to regain consciousness and carried me home with a delicacy of one carrying their newborn child.
 
DabDab said:
It depends how you define 'conscience',
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Indeed, and going by the human definition I would have to say "No".

... but if you look at it as the willingness and ability to learn rules and behaviours without there being any specific positive or negative reinforcement
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Can horses also learn behaviour through non-specific reinforcement? They are certainly sensitive enough to. Just because we can't point to specific cause and effect doesn't mean that horses aren't finding something nebulous like togetherness rewarding.

....then yes, horses, just like dogs and humans will learn and do things simply because it is expected of them by the society in which they live.
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Hmm, not so sure about this. Is there a difference between "expected of them by their society" and instincts honed by millennia of natural selection? And if there is a difference, how could we tell?

A horse's empathetic senses are also very well developed (more so than humans I believe)
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Totally agree!
 
ajn1610 said:
(Snipped) This. All 'group' animals must have some of these types of qualities, you see it in dogs trying to appease or looking guilty after they've done something, it's necessary to function in a collective with a hierarchy. You have to be careful not to anthropomorphise though,
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Having had more dealings with dogs than humans during a long lifetime, I can't really accept that. (I am still struggling to understand humans). A dog will look 'guilty' if the boss appears angry even though it has done nothing wrong. What it is actually 'saying' is, "I find you threatening and I am acknowledging your superiority". A puppy may look 'guilty' (roll over, squirm, urinate, etc) simply because it finds a human or an older dog intimidating as it knows it is lower in the social hierarchy. Dogs are experts at interpreting body language and anticipating what comes next. Human is angry = punishment, so better placate. What dogs don't understand is being punished (regardles of guilt) when they have gone through all the gestures and rituals stating that they accept that they are inferior. Understand that and you begin to realise why harsh treatment in training is usually counter prouctive. For the same reason, dogs will scream when threatened even though they are not in pain! Acceptance that they have 'done something wrong' doesn't enter into it -- that is our human interpretation. Dogs do not have morals, only a sense of territory, possession, and rank within the pack. Horses I am still trying to understand but I doubt they are much different. Humans remain a total mystery to me.
 
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