Does anyone hunt barefoot horses?

[MotherOfChickens]

Research can tell you anything you want it to... depending on the question you're asking and the validity of the research subjects and the researcher themselves. QUOTE]


no, it can't and saying so demonstrates lack of comprehension of what science is and does. you can only lie to people using statistics to people who know nothing about statistics, and is that the researcher's fault? I am a scientific researcher fwiw, with a fair few papers published in my particular field.

I am neither pro or anti-barefoot. from reading around the subject I have learned alot about feet and horse care, alot of which I have applied to my own horses-all of which live out on a track system. One is shod but has shoes off for 3 months of the year during which I use boots if needed, the other 2 (natives) are unshod (although one is still a youngster)-all are looked after by my excellent farrier. Even if you don't convert to barefoot, there is alot to be learned from it and no, not scientifically proven but that doesnt necessarily make it untrue and a scientist should never say otherwise.

I am always gobsmacked though, at the feelings this stirs up and the bull**** on both sides of the argument. I am involved in alot of endurance up here and I have to say, I have only seen non-competitive pleasure riders using boots, all the really serious endurancers have shod horses (and treed saddles). just an observation.

 

[Spudlet]

I don't believe I've done any mud slinging... don't understand the second comment. But if you have any specific questions just ask... or even better come along and have a look at my horses.

I wasn't talking about you sweet - it's just the way these threads always seem to go!

 

[mrdarcy]

I am involved in alot of endurance up here and I have to say, I have only seen non-competitive pleasure riders using boots, all the really serious endurancers have shod horses (and treed saddles). just an observation.

I've done up to 65k in hoof boots, hoping to do my 80k at Cirencester in a couple of weeks and move onto ER's after that. I was with someone who'd just done the 80k at Dukeries this weekend in front boots, no boots behind, and I did my 40k competitive (as described in previous post). People have won and placed in endurance rides (races) in the last few seasons, distances up to 120k, including winning the 80k ER at Barbary in 2008. I know lots of endurance riders (and there are more each season) who are serious endurance competitors who compete in boots or completely barefoot. So we are out there. In the States there are even more barefoot and barefoot/booted endurance riders. There's a great blog here about a horse who is long listed for the WEG:

http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/

She competes in glue-on Easyboots and trains in Gloves. They were the AERC 100 mile National Champions last year. Oh and they compete in FreeForm treeless saddles!

Treeless is a seperate argument altogether but I was in the vet gate at Dukeries on Saturday and saw at least two or three of the 90k - 160k competitors in treeless saddles. So again, they are out there, competing seriously.

 

[teddyt]

People getting on their high horse i think mrdarcy? (eta- the 2nd comment from spudlet)

With regards to the research, there are lots of ways it can be done, it depends on the experimental design. Yes, having each horse undergo each diet is the best way to do it and this obviously takes more time and hence money. I just gave a very crude example but there are lots of ways to tes an outcome.

soloequestrian- so who will do it. Good question. Businesses obviously do some research if the outcome might be commercially favourable e.g. feed companies. Other than that its mainly universities, charities or research groups, such as the animal health trust. The latter get their funding from running a vets practice, grants from welfare charities, etc. There are actually alot of different groups who could do the research and the decision behind carrying out a project, if not for commercial reasons, is usually for welfare improvement. Although performance related research is also a valid reason.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I've done up to 65k in hoof boots, hoping to do my 80k at Cirencester in a couple of weeks and move onto ER's after that. I was with someone who'd just done the 80k at Dukeries this weekend in front boots, no boots behind, and I did my 40k competitive (as described in previous post). People have won and placed in endurance rides (races) in the last few seasons, distances up to 120k, including winning the 80k ER at Barbary in 2008. I know lots of endurance riders (and there are more each season) who are serious endurance competitors who compete in boots or completely barefoot. So we are out there. In the States there are even more barefoot and barefoot/booted endurance riders. There's a great blog here about a horse who is long listed for the WEG:

http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/

She competes in glue-on Easyboots and trains in Gloves. They were the AERC 100 mile National Champions last year. Oh and they compete in FreeForm treeless saddles!

Treeless is a seperate argument altogether but I was in the vet gate at Dukeries on Saturday and saw at least two or three of the 90k - 160k competitors in treeless saddles. So again, they are out there, competing seriously.

good-not sure why I am not seeing it up here then but it does seem that barefoot is a bit easier in say, hotter parts of the US rather than Scotland. Not everything will suit every horse-I am not anti-treeless or barefoot but think the barefooter's passion/fanaticism puts normal horsey folk off-you catch more flies with honey as they say (not aimed at any one person).
I tried to take my horse barefoot but it didnt work although another physical issue has since come to light with him this year that probably didnt help. So I will probably try again next year once this issue is resolved. Boots are improving in design all the time and I use the gloves and am pretty impressed with them. I do wonder about the increased breakover with them though.

 

[mrdarcy]

People getting on their high horse i think mrdarcy? (eta- the 2nd comment from spudlet)

.

LOL - I can be so dumb sometimes!

 

[mrdarcy]

good-not sure why I am not seeing it up here then but it does seem that barefoot is a bit easier in say, hotter parts of the US rather than Scotland. Not everything will suit every horse-I am not anti-treeless or barefoot but think the barefooter's passion/fanaticism puts normal horsey folk off-you catch more flies with honey as they say (not aimed at any one person).
I tried to take my horse barefoot but it didnt work although another physical issue has since come to light with him this year that probably didnt help. So I will probably try again next year once this issue is resolved. Boots are improving in design all the time and I use the gloves and am pretty impressed with them. I do wonder about the increased breakover with them though.

If you want to chat to a very experienced trimmer who covers the whole of Scotland get in touch with Nick Hill at: http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/ No nonsence advice from someone who absolutely knows his stuff.

I do take your point about passion/fanaticism and TBH it's one of the things that used to put me off barefoot (was always a no questions asked shoer before). It's weird though... once you take the shoes off and see all the benefits you do kind of get consumed by a huge passion for barefoot and want to share it with people. Human nature I guess... I do try to rein myself in but not always sucessfully!

 

[soloequestrian]

soloequestrian- so who will do it. Good question. Businesses obviously do some research if the outcome might be commercially favourable e.g. feed companies. Other than that its mainly universities, charities or research groups, such as the animal health trust. The latter get their funding from running a vets practice, grants from welfare charities, etc. There are actually alot of different groups who could do the research and the decision behind carrying out a project, if not for commercial reasons, is usually for welfare improvement. Although performance related research is also a valid reason.

But this is kind of the point - would any of these you've suggested actually do such a general study? I'd be astonished if they did. It would be reasonably easy to design a study, and it's also reasonably easy to think who would be capable of running one, but in the real world I think pigs will fly before anyone actually does this kind of work......
It's relatively straighforward to 'suck it and see' with having barefoot horses so I don't really understand why people are so hung up on having to see scientific evidence of it's benefits, of a kind which isn't likely to appear, before they give it a try?

Gaa must get on with work but this thread is too diverting.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

CP, why the need to "contribute" to this discussion? the question was asked and i answered it! as for your arrogance regarding you typing abilities- does that make us all a load of thickos if we cannot achieve your wonderful timings? as for me, i can only write this with one finger, so i must be the dunce of the thread!! i appreciate you have done alot of research on this barefoot thing, but t makes not an iota of difference to me!! so you a "mrdarcy" can trundle on, writing oodles of epistles to all your followers whilst i can arrange for the farrier to come and shoe our horse to get him fit for next month.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

thanks for the link MrDarcy


wrt a study-it's more who would pay for it. you don't necessarily want a business funding it as they may be reluctant to publish. research money for equines is really lacking in the UK-actually, research money for most things is lacking in the UK unless it can be realistically dressed up as a welfare issure.

I'm a scientist and I like rigorous methodology-I don't like emotive language and don't care for 'horses are all happy and fantastic in the wild', because the likelihood is that they arent. The likes of Jaime Jackson have done alot of good but he is one man, with his own personal prejudices. Good science doesnt permit that!

 

[teddyt]

But this is kind of the point - would any of these you've suggested actually do such a general study? I'd be astonished if they did. .

You'd be astonished at what has been published, honestly! e.g. 'The influence of feed tub placement and spacing on feeding behaviour of mature horses' Who gives a monkeys about that? but someone obviously did!

i agree with peteralfred- its more about funding. And demand/need for the research. I personally think there is a need for research in this field simply because its growing. IMO to protect our horses from those not so ethical the trimmers should be qualified and regulated by law and research done to demonstrate the effectiveness or otherwise of certain techniques. I see producing research as a good thing to help the 'marketing' and promotion of barefoot- not a bad thing or as many suggest that its not needed. I think it would support many of the pro arguments and give them more credibility to alot of people, including the sceptical.

 

[Spudlet]

As in - not just a high horse - a 50 foot high horse

I don't know, my comedic talents are just wasted round here

 

[soloequestrian]

You'd be astonished at what has been published, honestly! e.g. 'The influence of feed tub placement and spacing on feeding behaviour of mature horses' Who gives a monkeys about that? but someone obviously did!

But that's the sort of study that could easily be done by an honours student, and if they had a pro-active enough supervisor could get published. The sort of thing that would have to be done to look at the effects of various factors on feet would be massive and long-term, which is back to the funding as you say, and which no-one is going to fund.

i agree with peteralfred- its more about funding. And demand/need for the research. I personally think there is a need for research in this field simply because its growing. IMO to protect our horses from those not so ethical the trimmers should be qualified and regulated by law and research done to demonstrate the effectiveness or otherwise of certain techniques. I see producing research as a good thing to help the 'marketing' and promotion of barefoot- not a bad thing or as many suggest that its not needed. I think it would support many of the pro arguments and give them more credibility to alot of people, including the sceptical.

Definitely not a bad thing, but what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely to ever happen. We had the discussion about trimming and the law in another thread - also very diverting!

 

[teddyt]

Definitely not a bad thing, but what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

It wont land in the lap of the uknhcp or others who would benefit, no. But if the governing bodies of barefoot in the uk lobbied for it then it might.

And actually a huge amount could even be achieved by degree students because they have access to gait analysis systems, treadmills, force plates and large numbers of horses! Again though, for any volume of research to be done the barefoot people have to create an interest and ask for it, provide ideas and databases, even horses. Otherwise they will just have to sit and wait for a student to be interested.

I appreciate its not the barefoot followers that are asking for research but it really should be! Hiding behind 'we've got 100s of case studies to prove it works' will only get them so far and i believe that if research was carried out it would get them much further

Charities like WHW fund research. I think there is a strong welfare benefit in doing a study on, say, going barefoot as a treatment for navicular. But WHW arent going to knock on uknhcps door and say here we go have several thousands of pounds to research it. But if the uknhcp (for example) went to WHW with a valid study idea then you never know!

Until then i honestly think you will find it very hard to persuade thousands of vets and farriers to throw out decades of traditional treatment and shoeing research on the say so of a minority, based just on case studies that have not been evaluated or corroborated in any way.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Charities like WHW fund research. I think there is a strong welfare benefit in doing a study on, say, going barefoot as a treatment for navicular. But WHW arent going to knock on uknhcps door and say here we go have several thousands of pounds to research it. But if the uknhcp (for example) went to WHW with a valid study idea then you never know!

I do agree with your post but research funding is hotly contested and it would take alot more than a few thousand to pay for something worthwhile that doesnt look like an undergrad student carried it out. I don't think that this is a big enough subject atm to warrant a big grant (unfortunately), although when you see what money is wasted on it's very frustrating!
I am regularly involved in writing grant applications for several hundred thousand pounds and these arent 'expensive' projects and believe me, it doesnt go on scientist's wages!

 

[cptrayes]

There often seems to be a fair amount of suspicion about the motives of people who advocate a barefoot approach. I can understand why people suspect the motives of paid trimmers and the organisations that charge to train them. I'd just like to point out that I earn no money from barefoot, or indeed from horses, in any way whatsoever, and I support no particular trimming organisation. I advocate using a trimmer who can show you working horses, be they qualified or not, farrier or not. My evanglism comes from dealing with one crippled horse, another under a death sentence, and numerous others of various types performing at a high level with no shoes.

I don't think the research that sceptics want is going to get done, but I think that we will win people over by example now there are increasing numbers of us. Two grooms at my local training centre now have their horses shoeless. By the time they had seen my fifth horse arriving shoeless to train for one day eventing, they realised there was something in it! By a fluke of perfect timing, the head of my Veterinary Practice was in the yard where they have a hospital as I rode through (after a six mile farm ride on rock hard ground) on what he knew was a navicular horse who had been written off twelve weeks and one day earlier. He was pretty interested before, now he is actively researching barefoot rehabilitation for his clients with similar horses.

It will grow and grow now, simply because there are so many thousands of horses in this country doing work they can do perfectly well without shoes on and in the end people who own them will get wise to the fact that they have no need to pay for shoes.

 

[teddyt]

peteralfred- I agree, thats part of what i was trying to say- the barefoot bodies need to make it a big enough subject and this will take years. they need to be proactive. At the moment they dont want research, they think case studies are sufficient and so they are sitting back saying 'look! we're working wonders without shoes, look at what we're doing'. I disagree this is sufficient, imo they need to have a more 'professional' outlook and look at the bigger picture. They are gaining a lot of support from horse owner themselves but they need to be looking at the bigger picture and teaching vets and farriers on a larger scale. And to do that i believe they need research.

if they started at universities and got a few studies going it would then make it easier for them to apply for the grants that will give them weightier research. From little acorns big oak trees grow! Its a long process which i think needs starting now.

cptrayes- i dont underestimate the value case studies such as yours provide. im not saying they are cr*p. Full stop. They are indeed valuable contributions and maybe i havnt said that before. But you are one little fish in a very big pond and not many would have the ability and knowledge that you appear to have. therefore their credibility is much less and more likely to be disregarded by vets, etc. Also, although you do a good job telling peole on here- how else does your contribution get to all the vets, etc out there? And for people who dont know you how do they choose to believe you over someone who may be saying the same as you but with very little experience to base their opinions on?

 

[cptrayes]

Teddyt,

I think boards like this are brilliant. Every time someone posts in veterinary now there are several people who say "my horse was written off and I took it barefoot and saved it", so at least now people know that there are alternatives even if their vets and farriers aren't aware. That awareness will get a boost when the Leahurst/Rockley research is published even though the numbers are small again.

The Leahurst/Rockley research will land on insurance actuaries' desks and there is no greater driver than money. I can see the E&L risk assessor rubbing his hands with absolute glee at the prospect of not having to pay out for loss of use on a horse with navicular syndrome or foot-ddft lesions. If that doesn't give it the oxygen of publicity I don't know what will!

For the mainstream, it's spreading exponentially now. H&H magazine a week or so ago had a comment by a County Show judge saying that she didn't like how many barefoot horses she was seeing in the show ring. I see a very limited future for the income stream that farriers are receiving from shoeing ponies (at all) and horses that are only working in arenas and short hacks.

There will still be problems for those people who want to do it but whose horses have metabolic issues which stop them from ever being able to do tough surfaces. Even then, there are again plenty of people on this forum and others who can advise on diet and/or boots if they have a trimmer who isn't diet aware.

In a year things have changed beyond recognition. A year ago on this forum people were afraid to post because of the savagery of some of the attacks. Now, while we still get a few trolls looking for attention, we always have a rattling good discussion with sensible people like you. In another year who knows where we'll be?

In the end I don't think it will be research that wins people over, it will be the fact that everywhere they look, in all disciplines, they are seeing working barefoot horses. Shoes will still have their place but we may finally be rid of centuries of legacy when they used to keeping horses sound in sub optimal conditions by nailing steel to their feet , so that they could work as taxi engines, tractors and war vehicles, .

 

[Fii]

I find this debate very interesting, although i have stated in other threads, that i would not have anyone but a farrier trim my horses (and i stand by that), i am very interasted in
cptrayes theries on feeding .
I have two ponies that are prone to laminitis, and a horse prone to abcesses, non are shod at the moment, in fact non of my horses are shod, but they are not in hard work so only for that reason, BUT i would love to be able to ride them all the time without shoes!!
I am quite open minded, and am willing to try new things to see if they will work for my horses.
Cyptreys, if you have the time, could you pm me with some more details on feed and additives for laminitics, mine are currently off grass, with, rough hay, and three small feeds of happy hoof, they are not stabled, but roaming the yard, with axcess to a stable if they want.

 

[cptrayes]

Fii I'm not an expert on laminitis, my case was very unusual - a fit eventer who probably had Insulin issues, in retrospect. If you post your query on the UKNHCP forum you'll find a lot of people with some very difficult lami cases who will help you. I do know, though, that there are people on there who's lami horses can't take happy hoof as a feed. And that the recommendation is generally to soak the hay for 12-24 hours to dissolve out the sugar in it. Hope that helps.

 

[Fii]

Ok thanks.
I am soaking most of the hay, the better stuff, but the last small bale was quite old and sun bleached.

 

[lillith]

As someone who was very very interested in a behind the barefoot concept I find it sad that the best its advocates can come up with is "why should I do it for you, look it up yourself".

Personally if I had acess to the type of information you regularly post cptrayes I would keep a list of links to back myself up with.

A lot of the barefoot sites say an awful lot and often allude vaguely to research but I have yet to find links to it other than the incomplete (but interesting) Rockley Farm stuff. There was a name mentioned a while ago which I have forgotten but when I googled the guy (scholar) all I got where his credentials and no details of his research.

It is in fact very difficult to get hold of the research I want on anything now that I am out of the uni life and no longer have free acess to all the journals I would like to. Of course I could pay for it but I'm afraid food for me comes first on that.

Oh and if anyone remembers I did try to do some questionaire based stuff to get some stats out of but I got very little uptake from barefooters either here or on the barefoot forums and a couple of other forums.