Does anyone know yet why sycamore seeds are suddenly so toxic?

As a tree , the Sycamore is a useless waste of space ,and not even a native tree. In the past we used to chop them down .Now the tree huggers want us to keep them . Thats why there are more problems . Kill them all , they dont even make good firewood!
 
It is a terrible death for a horse, truly.
There is a research group connected to the University of Liège working on this, i wish them success, quickly.

i hope one day to see sycamores treated like ragwort with local councils having to remove them full stop
 
skint1 said:
It is a terrible death for a horse, truly.
There is a research group connected to the University of Liège working on this, i wish them success, quickly.

i hope one day to see sycamores treated like ragwort with local councils having to remove them full stop
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Our local council,(Epsom) actually has a scheme to preserve this poisonous weed.
 
I'm in the same boat as SO1. I had 6 acres in total for my 2 cobs. They had just moved into a 1.5 acre paddock that had been rested for 6 months. They had a tiny evening feed just a small handful of speedibeet between them to give them a mineral supplement & turmeric to the old r one. They were fit & the right weight, ridden 5 days most weeks including 2/3 hour hacks. They had a salt lick, they were on a good worm testing/worming programme. Field was poo picked daily. None of the things that are ever given as risk factors applied apart from the trees. Horses had been kept there since at least the mid 70s with no apparent problems.
It was first clinically described about 80 years ago so it's not really new. Personally I think it seems to have suddenly sprung out of nowhere to most people because before the cause was known there was no point in publicising it. Not much point on a press release that says " At this time of year some horses get a relatively uncommon but usually fatal illness. Don't know what causes it so can't give any advice".
 
Mike007 said:
As a tree , the Sycamore is a useless waste of space ,and not even a native tree. In the past we used to chop them down .Now the tree huggers want us to keep them . Thats why there are more problems . Kill them all , they dont even make good firewood!
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I wonder why the tree huggers want to keep them if they're no use to anyone? How do we know that they aren't somehow causing native trees to die off? After all, they are toxic enough to kill animals, why not other trees? (I sound like a tree racist!)

The ones which killed my girl are on the side of a road, our farmer says the council will not allow him to cut them down, I have thought of contacting them directly and explaining the situation, I don't know why it should be a problem to remove them.
 
Faracat said:
They are diagnosed by blood test now. How long has that been available? Before the blood test it would be easy to misdiagnose.
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Mine was diagnosed this way nearly 6 years ago now. It was not at this time linked to sycamore and was relatively unknown than that autumn 20 horses died in our area and it's been more known ever since.
 
The sycamore like many tree species, was introduced in the 17th Century as an alternative to ash and oak for the production of furniture and kitchen utensils, It provides an effective wind break in hedgerows and as it can live for 500 years provides a robust habitat for many useful species of insect. The toxic effect of the seeds on horses has been known for generations. toxicity levels alter with changes in climate and are not necessarily on the rise. The seeds provide a vital food source for some birds and small mammals. The Sycamore is hardy and provides exceptional soil binding, especially in coastal areas exposed to high winds as it is salt water resistant. I'm not a 'tree hugger', I am, unlike some, able to see the benefits of biodiversity. I feel sorrow for those that have lost their animals to AM, But with careful husbandry the experience need not be repeated. Sadly, The saying 'livestock equals deadstock' has fallen out of usage and has made some of us unwitting and ignorant victims of nature.
 
Dave have you read any of the stories? For people with sycamore anywhere within reach of their grazing, the 'careful husbandry' required is removal of every seed and seedling from a grass field. Other things reduce risk but do not remove it. Clearly this is impossible, so are you suggesting that these people should simply keep their horses in full time rather than remove sycamore? For those who are concerned, from your position of knowledge, could you advise them instead what alternative source of food and habitat the trees they remove can be replaced with?

I sincerely hope you never have to watch your horse pee Coke and die in agony over a matter of hours or cope with a long term recovery if caught in time with a low enough exposure :(
 
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ycbm said:
Dave have you read any of the stories? For people with sycamore anywhere within reach of their grazing, the 'careful husbandry' required is removal of every seed and seedling from a grass field. Other things reduce risk but do not remove it. Clearly this is impossible, so are you suggesting that these people should simply keep their horses in full time rather than remove sycamore? For those who are concerned, from your position of knowledge, could you advise them instead what alternative source of food and habitat the trees they remove can be replaced with?

I sincerely hope you never have to watch your horse pee Coke and die in agony over a matter of hours or cope with a long term recovery if caught in time with a low enough exposure :(
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My horse was the victim of my ignorance and I saw her die like that. Never again. I would cut down and burn EVERY one of them. There must be other trees that would do a similar job without killing anything unlucky enough to graze in its shadow. There is NO WAY to completely mitigate the risk if you have to keep your horse near these terrible trees because you can miss just one of the damn things, or pick every one up and then go to work and the wind blows more in. I hate them. I was going to surreptitiously poison them til I learned it would make them even more toxic, now I am going to lobby my local council to remove them!
 
So what you gonna do? remove all sycamore, privet, yew, ragwort , oak, maple and any other plant from the environment that is injurious to horse health?. Or manage their grazing, after all, their environment is artificial any way, we do have to poo pick for them, we do have to introduce variety for them because of the mono culture pasture we provide for them. These plants are not toxic all year round, some of them provide much needed shade for example especially when coats are left on during the days in winter, and god help them, sometimes in summer. The death of a horse caused by other than old age is a double tragedy because it highlights human failure to manage effectively and reliably the environment they rely on us to provide.
 
Dave - shut up. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. In fact, you appear to be the only person who has known for generations that the seeds are toxic. The rest of the world only found out in 2013 prompted by studies in humans of the cause of Jamaican Vomiting Sickness. Observatories led researchers to look for a source of vancomycin a for horses (unripe cakes fruit not being a major component of their diet). Studies by the Universities of Liege & Michigan pointed to acers, particularly sycamore in Europe & box elder in the U.S. so take your sanctimonious claptrap & stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
 
hairycob said:
Dave - shut up. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. In fact, you appear to be the only person who has known for generations that the seeds are toxic. The rest of the world only found out in 2013 prompted by studies in humans of the cause of Jamaican Vomiting Sickness. Observatories led researchers to look for a source of vancomycin a for horses (unripe cakes fruit not being a major component of their diet). Studies by the Universities of Liege & Michigan pointed to acers, particularly sycamore in Europe & box elder in the U.S. so take your sanctimonious claptrap & stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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Well said Hairy Cob. Yes shut up Dave and stop showing your ignorance. Acorns can be picked up where they fall, ragwort can be removed yew trees can be fenced off BUT no one can stop these ******seeds blowing onto our fields and then hiding in the grass until they take a life.
 
Dave the dog said:
So what you gonna do? remove all sycamore, privet, yew, ragwort , oak, maple and any other plant from the environment that is injurious to horse health?. Or manage their grazing, after all, their environment is artificial any way, we do have to poo pick for them, we do have to introduce variety for them because of the mono culture pasture we provide for them. These plants are not toxic all year round, some of them provide much needed shade for example especially when coats are left on during the days in winter, and god help them, sometimes in summer. The death of a horse caused by other than old age is a double tragedy because it highlights human failure to manage effectively and reliably the environment they rely on us to provide.
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So those plants all have seeds specifically designed to fly, and large enough to be toxic in small doses, do they Dave? No, they are all easily controlled with a bit of fencing.

Now you are actually BLAMING the people who have lost horses to it? Words fail me.
 
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Ouch! not blaming anyone just pointing out the obvious. Sycamore introduced from eastern europe where the toxic effect on horses was known even then, in eastern europe. Don't know anything about Jamaica cake but if the scientists are behind the times not my fault.
 
Dave -for someone who isn't blaming people you are disguising it well. Perhaps you would like to give us some links that show that the dangers of sycamores were understood elsewhere. If you can't bog off.
 
I can't remember who or when it was but someone mentioned that AM was to do with the mould that grew on the damp seeds and leaves of any falling tree. The mould would be particularly rampant in mild winters which we have had for several years now. It's mild again now... there were people having a picnic in dresses on Friday in the park! However, it has been dry...

I really hope some reserach is published soon. It would break my heart to see my horse die in this way. Horrible.
 
Mould on leaves was the pre 2013 theory. Source of the toxin has now been identified as sycamore in Europe but notvthe cause. The toxin is present in some seeds bit not others & the level can vary wildly even among seeds on the same tree and from year to year on a tree. Why isn't yet understood.
 
hairycob said:
Mould on leaves was the pre 2013 theory. Source of the toxin has now been identified as sycamore in Europe but notvthe cause. The toxin is present in some seeds bit not others & the level can vary wildly even among seeds on the same tree and from year to year on a tree. Why isn't yet understood.
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That would make sense it was a few years ago. Scary.
 
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